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R+L=J v.45

Angalin

By Angalin,
in General (ASoIaF)

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MtnLion Council Member

MtnLion

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I'm not sure if the following has already been brought up... Re-reading ASoS, I came accorss a passage with, IMHO, a very strong R+L=J allegoric subtext.

I don't know how I could have missed it the first time, considering my Classical education :dunce: The bulb lit up reading a name, Tristifer, that in Latin means 'he who carries sadness'.

The scene takes place in Oldstones, at the presence of Robb, Cat and a... sepulcher where king Tristifer is buried.

I'll highlight a few words/passages and then add a few annotations.

Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle's yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash. The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featurless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king's feet almost to his chest.

[...]

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

[...]

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared.

The first simplest metaphor is the one related to a story buried or better half-hidden... in a crypt.

Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).

He who carries sadness (Rhaegar), rests with a stone hammer upon his chest (Robert's).

Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).

This tale immediately precedes Robb and Cat discussion about Jon's legitimization, including a few Targaryen's history references.

It takes place in Oldstones where Jenny came from. We know that she was friends with a woods witch (the Ghost of High Heart) who prophesied that The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. We also know that Duncan Targaryen, son of Aegon V, gave up his crown for Jenny. A crown is visible on the sepulcher about the temples of a king whose features are undefinied. Ergo we do not know his face. Yet. But a direwolf stands atop like a fierce and proud sigil...

Truly awesome!

This has the roses image in it as well, J. Stargaryen. It might be worth adding to the Thread.

ETA: Wolves bare their teeth in friendship/greeting, whether GRRM knows this or not, I won't guess.

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Jon Icefyre Council Member

Jon Icefyre

Posted
Posted

I'm not sure if the following has already been brought up... Re-reading ASoS, I came accorss a passage with, IMHO, a very strong R+L=J allegoric subtext.

I don't know how I could have missed it the first time, considering my Classical education :dunce: The bulb lit up reading a name, Tristifer, that in Latin means 'he who carries sadness'.

The scene takes place in Oldstones, at the presence of Robb, Cat and a... sepulcher where king Tristifer is buried.

I'll highlight a few words/passages and then add a few annotations.

Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle's yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash. The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featurless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king's feet almost to his chest.

[...]

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

[...]

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared.

The first simplest metaphor is the one related to a story buried or better half-hidden... in a crypt.

Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).

He who carries sadness (Rhaegar), rests with a stone hammer upon his chest (Robert's).

Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).

This tale immediately precedes Robb and Cat discussion about Jon's legitimization, including a few Targaryen's history references.

It takes place in Oldstones where Jenny came from. We know that she was friends with a woods witch (the Ghost of High Heart) who prophesied that The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. We also know that Duncan Targaryen, son of Aegon V, gave up his crown for Jenny. A crown is visible on the sepulcher about the temples of a king whose features are undefinied. Ergo we do not know his face. Yet. But a direwolf stands atop like a fierce and proud sigil...

Wow this is awesome stuff! Inredicble catch FrozenFire3!

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FrozenFire3 Council Member

FrozenFire3

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Posted

I've always thought Martin's multi-layered writing and his masterful use of allegory is comparable to Dante's. Just think about the symbolic use of number 7 (seven being for Dante the base of his verse and poetry as symbol of mystery and perfection), the recurring theme of the descent to hell, the use of dream as allegoric and narrative device...

When half way through the journey of our life

I found that I was in a gloomy wood,

because the path which led aright was lost.

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Ygrain Council Member

Ygrain

Posted
Posted

I'm not sure if the following has already been brought up... Re-reading ASoS, I came accorss a passage with, IMHO, a very strong R+L=J allegoric subtext.

I don't know how I could have missed it the first time, considering my Classical education :dunce: The bulb lit up reading a name, Tristifer, that in Latin means 'he who carries sadness'.

The scene takes place in Oldstones, at the presence of Robb, Cat and a... sepulcher where king Tristifer is buried.

I'll highlight a few words/passages and then add a few annotations.

Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle's yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash. The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featurless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king's feet almost to his chest.

[...]

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

[...]

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared.

The first simplest metaphor is the one related to a story buried or better half-hidden... in a crypt.

Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).

He who carries sadness (Rhaegar), rests with a stone hammer upon his chest (Robert's).

Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).

This tale immediately precedes Robb and Cat discussion about Jon's legitimization, including a few Targaryen's history references.

It takes place in Oldstones where Jenny came from. We know that she was friends with a woods witch (the Ghost of High Heart) who prophesied that The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. We also know that Duncan Targaryen, son of Aegon V, gave up his crown for Jenny. A crown is visible on the sepulcher about the temples of a king whose features are undefinied. Ergo we do not know his face. Yet. But a direwolf stands atop like a fierce and proud sigil...

Joining the wow crowd in silent awe: never got this one.

I might add some Tristan and Isolde echoes (except the same root in the name): when they are burried, their stone tombs are interconnected by a plant growing from one and entwining its branches around the other.

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Lady Gwynhyfvar Council Member

Lady Gwynhyfvar

Posted
Posted

I've always thought Martin's multi-layered writing and his masterful use of allegory is comparable to Dante's. Just think about the symbolic use of number 7 (seven being for Dante the base of his verse and poetry as symbol of mystery and perfection), the recurring theme of the descent to hell, the use of dream as allegoric and narrative device...

When half way through the journey of our life

I found that I was in a gloomy wood,

because the path which led aright was lost.

This. Seven is sacred in most world religions and has a number of other fascinating associations as well. For a brief synopsis:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1086220/number-symbolism/248164/7

Particularly of interest is the intersection of seven with Mithraic tradition, which I find a lot of parallels to in the R+L=J story.

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FrozenFire3 Council Member

FrozenFire3

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Posted

Joining the wow crowd in silent awe: never got this one.

I might add some Tristan and Isolde echoes (except the same root in the name): when they are burried, their stone tombs are interconnected by a plant growing from one and entwining its branches around the other.

:bowdown: This passage is the embodiment of good writing.

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