The Winds of Winter , return of Benjen Stark ?

[bemused]

So Samwell and Gilly, a girl who had recently gave birth, make it out on foot yet Benjen, a seasoned ranger, cant? Benjen's alive

Yes. Wa-a-ay back when Bran learns Benjen's missing ,he says the CoTF will help him , but at that time in the story, no-one believes the CoTF still exist ...Well, the CoTF and Bloodraven help Bran himself and they help Gilly and Sam ... By helping Sam , and through Mormont's raven , they help Jon .

When Asha discovers the Northern Clans are among the forces coming to retake Deepwood Motte , she recalls the maester saying the clans were quarrelsome and would never join forces in the same cause unless they had a Stark to lead them , yet here they are ,marching together ( not only together , but apparently under Stannis' leadership ). Asha thinks maybe the maester didn't know what he was talking about , or maybe he lied... As for us , having seen how the CoTF have helped Starks , maybe the clans do have a Stark secretly leading them.

When the Liddle discovers Bran, then watches his progress , yet doesn't intervene .. and when Flint and Norrey come to the wall and seem to accept Jon's reasoning and plans for the wildlings relatively easily for people who've been the targets of wildling raiding for generations .. perhaps they've already been convinced of the necessity of Bran's dangerous journey and of the greater danger of leaving the wildlings north of the wall... If it takes a Stark to get them on the same page, who might that be ? If , as I believe , the GNC exists , who could bring together all the disparate elements better than Benjen ? If the CoTF have helped him , as we see they would , they alone could have been aware of all the parties' sentiments and the many ideas for resistance that they might have.

BR / CoTF are the only ones who remember the existence of the Black Gate . If there is a greater ( magical ) meaning behind " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell ", they are the only ones in a position to remember that .. or to remember what secrets might lie under WF itself.

So I think Benjen is not only alive , but back already , in Winterfell.

[Hellauthere]

I know some will hate me for believing the Colhands=Benjen theory and I know there are threads for it, but I always felt Coldhands were Benjen. Not shure though, but that is what I was thinking all the time reading Brans chapters in a ADWD. I guess he's not since few have mentioned it here.

I hope he will show up though, some way or another. He was a beautiful character and seemed so loyal to the Nights Watch. He's an interesting part of House Stark and also he is one of those characters who can reveal Jons parenthood.

[cup_of_tea]

Perhaps Benjen is dead and is the leader of the Others. That would offer tantalising possibilities for Bran if he were able to somehow warg with him. Bran could either use his powers to help turn the Others back, or help them to overcome the Wall. He would have the ability to choose between great good and great evil. It would also have the bonus of allowing us a glimpse into the heads of the Others.

Personally I think this theory far fetched as hell, but I am just eager for the Others to be used in a creative and unexpected way, not to simply provide fodder for Dany's dragons. That would be cheap story-telling and a complete let down. I don't want the Others to simply be a plot device.

[RKOpanther]

Yes. Wa-a-ay back when Bran learns Benjen's missing ,he says the CoTF will help him , but at that time in the story, no-one believes the CoTF still exist ...Well, the CoTF and Bloodraven help Bran himself and they help Gilly and Sam ... By helping Sam , and through Mormont's raven , they help Jon .

When Asha discovers the Northern Clans are among the forces coming to retake Deepwood Motte , she recalls the maester saying the clans were quarrelsome and would never join forces in the same cause unless they had a Stark to lead them , yet here they are ,marching together ( not only together , but apparently under Stannis' leadership ). Asha thinks maybe the maester didn't know what he was talking about , or maybe he lied... As for us , having seen how the CoTF have helped Starks , maybe the clans do have a Stark secretly leading them.

When the Liddle discovers Bran, then watches his progress , yet doesn't intervene .. and when Flint and Norrey come to the wall and seem to accept Jon's reasoning and plans for the wildlings relatively easily for people who've been the targets of wildling raiding for generations .. perhaps they've already been convinced of the necessity of Bran's dangerous journey and of the greater danger of leaving the wildlings north of the wall... If it takes a Stark to get them on the same page, who might that be ? If , as I believe , the GNC exists , who could bring together all the disparate elements better than Benjen ? If the CoTF have helped him , as we see they would , they alone could have been aware of all the parties' sentiments and the many ideas for resistance that they might have.

BR / CoTF are the only ones who remember the existence of the Black Gate . If there is a greater ( magical ) meaning behind " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell ", they are the only ones in a position to remember that .. or to remember what secrets might lie under WF itself.

So I think Benjen is not only alive , but back already , in Winterfell.

This is awesome!

[RKOpanther]

Personally I think this theory far fetched as hell, but I am just eager for the Others to be used in a creative and unexpected way, not to simply provide fodder for Dany's dragons. That would be cheap story-telling and a complete let down. I don't want the Others to simply be a plot device.

I want to know so much more about the Others but GRRM has been tight lipped on them apart from letting us know they are evil, dont like fire and make wights. Hopefully in WOW we will learn more as I think the Others threat will be taking centre stage from here on out.

[Whispering wood]

So I think Benjen is not only alive , but back already , in Winterfell.

If the reason for a stark to always be in winterfell holds some much higher power then how would you explain the severe storm the north have experienced. It's been talked about that that's the reason why there is such severe weather, because there isn't a stark in winterfell. How else would the severe weather be explained? Global warming? Just winter?

[cup_of_tea]

If the reason for a stark to always be in winterfell holds some much higher power then how would you explain the severe storm the north have experienced. It's been talked about that that's the reason why there is such severe weather, because there isn't a stark in winterfell. How else would the severe weather be explained? Global warming? Just winter?

Isn't the severe weather just normal weather? I don't recall any northman describing it as unusual; infact they seem to think it's a trifle compared to what will come when winter truly comes. One northman recalls a snow so deep it buries castles. I'm sure the 'no Stark in Winterfell' thing is just a coincidence. GRRM creates deep intricate stories, but sometimes somethings are just happenstance.

[RKOpanther]

Also wars aren't usually fought during winter in Westeros escpecially in the North. I remember in the books and I think they recently mentioned it in the show that Robb didn't want to march home to fight the Ironborn because his men would want to bunker up for winter and not go back South. Stannis was silly to march his southron knights through winter in the North.

[Bo Bice]

Prologue

[Prince of the North]

I know some will hate me for believing the Colhands=Benjen theory and I know there are threads for it, but I always felt Coldhands were Benjen. Not shure though, but that is what I was thinking all the time reading Brans chapters in a ADWD. I guess he's not since few have mentioned it here.

I hope he will show up though, some way or another. He was a beautiful character and seemed so loyal to the Nights Watch. He's an interesting part of House Stark and also he is one of those characters who can reveal Jons parenthood.

Nah, I agree with you. I think Coldhands used to be Benjen as well. However, it's just another theory among many at this point. Don't worry about people "hating" you because this is the theory you subscribe to. Only those who believe they are right with no proof would believe so strongly against your theory. I say let them wallow in their confirmation bias and continue doing what you're doing - have fun with it! After all, that's why we're here, right? ;)

[bemused]

If the reason for a stark to always be in winterfell holds some much higher power then how would you explain the severe storm the north have experienced. It's been talked about that that's the reason why there is such severe weather, because there isn't a stark in winterfell. How else would the severe weather be explained? Global warming? Just winter?

What does the weather do ? Slows Stannis down... Stannis may have a plan to take WF by stealth , but I think that BR/CoTF/BJ/GNC do ,too... It also provides cover for the Umber saboteurs ( and any WH reserves that might be moving into position to enter through the crypts ), and it will slow Ramsay if he's making a move on Jon and CB.

I think "There must always be a Stark in WF" means a Stark in control of WF , a Stark capable of leading from WF.. The weather is allowing the GNC to get all their ducks in a row. They may agree to aid Stannis in his endeavor to take the IT, but when it comes to having the Boltons or Stannis ruling WF, Stannis is only the lesser of two evils.

Ideally , they'd want a Stark ruling WF in his own right , not as a gift from Stannis. No strings attached. That Stark might well welcome Stannis as a guest and ally, but wouldn't want him to have any sense of proprietorship.

The storm is their friend.

[RKOpanther]

Thats the main thing I have against Stannis. The only reason he wants a Stark in Winterfell is so he can have the North under heel. I don't want that, I want a Stark for King (or Queen) of the North

[Whispering wood]

What does the weather do ? Slows Stannis down... Stannis may have a plan to take WF by stealth , but I think that BR/CoTF/BJ/GNC do ,too... It also provides cover for the Umber saboteurs ( and any WH reserves that might be moving into position to enter through the crypts ), and it will slow Ramsay if he's making a move on Jon and CB.

I think "There must always be a Stark in WF" means a Stark in control of WF , a Stark capable of leading from WF.. The weather is allowing the GNC to get all their ducks in a row. They may agree to aid Stannis in his endeavor to take the IT, but when it comes to having the Boltons or Stannis ruling WF, Stannis is only the lesser of two evils.

Ideally , they'd want a Stark ruling WF in his own right , not as a gift from Stannis. No strings attached. That Stark might well welcome Stannis as a guest and ally, but wouldn't want him to have any sense of proprietorship.

The storm is their friend.

Ahhhh thanks for the clear up, I'm afriad I took the whole 'in' winterfell part quite literally.

[bemused]

Well , it's only a clarification of my opinion ;)..and I'm sure not everyone would agree, but you're welcome..

I do take the "in Winterfell " literally ...but at the same time , I don't think it would be good enough to fulfill the imperative to have , say ,Rickon in WF, with an adult of a different house or bloodline actually in command.

There might be a parallel in the boy LC's of the NW that Sam discovers in the records at CB... all Starks ..one only 10 . (I would bet they were elected at the onset of winter , but we'll have to wait and see ). But if the reason for the saying is mainly to oppose the Others , I think it will take someone older than 5 or 6 to properly fill the bill .

[jentario]

Yes. Wa-a-ay back when Bran learns Benjen's missing ,he says the CoTF will help him , but at that time in the story, no-one believes the CoTF still exist ...Well, the CoTF and Bloodraven help Bran himself and they help Gilly and Sam ... By helping Sam , and through Mormont's raven , they help Jon .

When Asha discovers the Northern Clans are among the forces coming to retake Deepwood Motte , she recalls the maester saying the clans were quarrelsome and would never join forces in the same cause unless they had a Stark to lead them , yet here they are ,marching together ( not only together , but apparently under Stannis' leadership ). Asha thinks maybe the maester didn't know what he was talking about , or maybe he lied... As for us , having seen how the CoTF have helped Starks , maybe the clans do have a Stark secretly leading them.

When the Liddle discovers Bran, then watches his progress , yet doesn't intervene .. and when Flint and Norrey come to the wall and seem to accept Jon's reasoning and plans for the wildlings relatively easily for people who've been the targets of wildling raiding for generations .. perhaps they've already been convinced of the necessity of Bran's dangerous journey and of the greater danger of leaving the wildlings north of the wall... If it takes a Stark to get them on the same page, who might that be ? If , as I believe , the GNC exists , who could bring together all the disparate elements better than Benjen ? If the CoTF have helped him , as we see they would , they alone could have been aware of all the parties' sentiments and the many ideas for resistance that they might have.

BR / CoTF are the only ones who remember the existence of the Black Gate . If there is a greater ( magical ) meaning behind " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell ", they are the only ones in a position to remember that .. or to remember what secrets might lie under WF itself.

So I think Benjen is not only alive , but back already , in Winterfell.

I think that the Stark that is leading them is the only Stark they think remains- fArya. She may not be there, but her existence and the danger she is in (marrying a known psychopath of the most loathed family in the North- their enemies) is enough to motivate them to put their disagreements aside.

Benjen being alive is one thing, but him being south of the Wall is completely rediculous IMO. I also believe Benjen may forever be an unanswered question. Some stories shouldn't be told.

[Kvvothe]

Benjen being alive is one thing, but him being south of the Wall is completely rediculous IMO. I also believe Benjen may forever be an unanswered question. Some stories shouldn't be told.

This. I have a feeling that Benjen will remain a mystery never solved.

[RKOpanther]

If it takes a strong Stark to be in Winterfell to oppose the others then the only options are Jon, Benjen or Sansa. Bran and Arya are on different paths and Rickon is to young.

[STRONG LIKE BEAR]

I want to know so much more about the Others but GRRM has been tight lipped on them apart from letting us know they are evil, dont like fire and make wights. Hopefully in WOW we will learn more as I think the Others threat will be taking centre stage from here on out.

How exactly are they evil? What evidence is there for that?

Last I checked they simply exist beyond the Wall, I don't believe I recall an instance where they attacked anyone cause LOL LETSMAKEWIGHTS! Seems to be the humans who are the main aggressor, and are the ones meddling in places they shouldn't be.

[Dreadnaught]

Here's my theory.

If you believe Bloodraven is warging Mormont's crow, then most likely Benjen is dead. This is because when Jon and Jeor were discussing Benjen, the crow insisted that he was dead. I think that Bloodraven was doing that. If Bloodraven is warging all those crows then he has a lot a knowledge on everything that happens north of the wall, so there's a good chance he knew what happened to Benjen.

Benjen left with half a dozen men, and their task was to find Ser Waymar Royce. He was going to search the haunted forest as far as the Shadow Tower. One of the logical places for him to stop would be Crasters. However Craster say's he hasn't seen them, and the wildlings make no mention of them either. But we know two of his men returned as wights, and in the TV series Benjen's horse returned. This indicates Benjen's party fought the Others. Its possible Benjen and the rest escaped, but the the most logical thing for Benjen to do would be to immediately return to Castle Black and inform Mormont about the Others.

I suppose you could say Benjen decided to track the White Walkers that attacked him, but those things can move fast, are nocturnal, and camoflaged. I don't think a human could track them undetected, if at all.

I can't see Benjen travelling north to the lands of always winter either. He would need to return to Castle Black and let Mormont know whats happening and gather enough provisions for such a journey.

Qhorin mentioned being trapped up north during the winter and not being able to get back until the spring. But that would mean Benjen wouldn't be back until everything was done and dusted.

That leaves me with the most likely scenario:

Benjen is dead and we'll never hear about him again. I suppose it makes it more realistic.

Or Benjen is Coldhands, which I believe is a still a strong possibility. I think the long ago statement was a red herring because GRRM likes to keep his readers guessing.

[RKOpanther]

How exactly are they evil? What evidence is there for that?

Last I checked they simply exist beyond the Wall, I don't believe I recall an instance where they attacked anyone cause LOL LETSMAKEWIGHTS! Seems to be the humans who are the main aggressor, and are the ones meddling in places they shouldn't be.

Very true. Maybe not evil but a threat.