The Winds of Winter , return of Benjen Stark ?

[valyriandream]

I hope he's alive but I always got the impression he is Coldhands. Yea I know there's stuff hinting that he isn't but it just always felt like him to me... the Uncle coming to the aid of his nephew when he needs it most.

I also think he is cold hands.... I think he died and was 'brought back' by the Children of the Forest (TCOTF), hence him not being a white... he seems to still have some recollection of who he was before (I could be wrong) as he knew about the passage under the wall that Sam and Gilly used and that he was unable to pass through this... this knowledge would have come from him being the best Ranger etc or could have been imparted by TCOTF.... But either way, it would be interesting to find out what happened to him...

[Brother Seamus]

Yes. Wa-a-ay back when Bran learns Benjen's missing ,he says the CoTF will help him , but at that time in the story, no-one believes the CoTF still exist ...Well, the CoTF and Bloodraven help Bran himself and they help Gilly and Sam ... By helping Sam , and through Mormont's raven , they help Jon .

When Asha discovers the Northern Clans are among the forces coming to retake Deepwood Motte , she recalls the maester saying the clans were quarrelsome and would never join forces in the same cause unless they had a Stark to lead them , yet here they are ,marching together ( not only together , but apparently under Stannis' leadership ). Asha thinks maybe the maester didn't know what he was talking about , or maybe he lied... As for us , having seen how the CoTF have helped Starks , maybe the clans do have a Stark secretly leading them.

When the Liddle discovers Bran, then watches his progress , yet doesn't intervene .. and when Flint and Norrey come to the wall and seem to accept Jon's reasoning and plans for the wildlings relatively easily for people who've been the targets of wildling raiding for generations .. perhaps they've already been convinced of the necessity of Bran's dangerous journey and of the greater danger of leaving the wildlings north of the wall... If it takes a Stark to get them on the same page, who might that be ? If , as I believe , the GNC exists , who could bring together all the disparate elements better than Benjen ? If the CoTF have helped him , as we see they would , they alone could have been aware of all the parties' sentiments and the many ideas for resistance that they might have.

BR / CoTF are the only ones who remember the existence of the Black Gate . If there is a greater ( magical ) meaning behind " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell ", they are the only ones in a position to remember that .. or to remember what secrets might lie under WF itself.

So I think Benjen is not only alive , but back already , in Winterfell.

This is awesome!

I agree. That's awesome.

Nah, I agree with you. I think Coldhands used to be Benjen as well. However, it's just another theory among many at this point. Don't worry about people "hating" you because this is the theory you subscribe to. Only those who believe they are right with no proof would believe so strongly against your theory. I say let them wallow in their confirmation bias and continue doing what you're doing - have fun with it! After all, that's why we're here, right? ;)

Here's my theory.

If you believe Bloodraven is warging Mormont's crow, then most likely Benjen is dead. This is because when Jon and Jeor were discussing Benjen, the crow insisted that he was dead. I think that Bloodraven was doing that. If Bloodraven is warging all those crows then he has a lot a knowledge on everything that happens north of the wall, so there's a good chance he knew what happened to Benjen.

Benjen left with half a dozen men, and their task was to find Ser Waymar Royce. He was going to search the haunted forest as far as the Shadow Tower. One of the logical places for him to stop would be Crasters. However Craster say's he hasn't seen them, and the wildlings make no mention of them either. But we know two of his men returned as wights, and in the TV series Benjen's horse returned. This indicates Benjen's party fought the Others. Its possible Benjen and the rest escaped, but the the most logical thing for Benjen to do would be to immediately return to Castle Black and inform Mormont about the Others.

I suppose you could say Benjen decided to track the White Walkers that attacked him, but those things can move fast, are nocturnal, and camoflaged. I don't think a human could track them undetected, if at all.

I can't see Benjen travelling north to the lands of always winter either. He would need to return to Castle Black and let Mormont know whats happening and gather enough provisions for such a journey.

Qhorin mentioned being trapped up north during the winter and not being able to get back until the spring. But that would mean Benjen wouldn't be back until everything was done and dusted.

That leaves me with the most likely scenario:

Benjen is dead and we'll never hear about him again. I suppose it makes it more realistic.

Or Benjen is Coldhands, which I believe is a still a strong possibility. I think the long ago statement was a red herring because GRRM likes to keep his readers guessing.

makes a lot of sense.

my main objection to CH=Benjen is not the "died long ago" thing, although that helps, but that Bran doesn't recognize him, and we're given nothing to suggest that Bran never gets a good look at his face, IIRC. This is one of the 2-3 main points a I re-read the whole series for a couple of months ago and I came away concluding there is not a hint that CH kept Bran from seeing his face clearly.

and yes, with GRRM more than any other author we could have something like this just left as a loose end, but I really, really doubt it. The plot has set him up to play a role. He's the last living adult male (non-bastard) Stark, the central characters in the series. He has to be accounted for, and I don't see the sense in killing him off, time-line wise, in book 2, and not telling us until book 6 or 7.

but, again, with GRRM you never know. give GRRM credit. killing ned, robb, and cat, and crippling Bran, plus killing lady, king robert, renly, tywin, and joffrey, among others, has had the desired effect. virtually NOTHING is off the table.

[Prince of the North]

my main objection to CH=Benjen is not the "died long ago" thing, although that helps, but that Bran doesn't recognize him, and we're given nothing to suggest that Bran never gets a good look at his face, IIRC. This is one of the 2-3 main points a I re-read the whole series for a couple of months ago and I came away concluding there is not a hint that CH kept Bran from seeing his face clearly.

I'm pretty sure Coldhands keeps his face covered with a scarf. I don't have the books electronically so I can't do an easy search but that was always my impression :dunno:

[bemused]

Yes . The lower half of his face is covered in a scarf. Perhaps to conceal his identity ,or perhaps to cover some horrific wound. ( He has been killed. )

However , I do put a lot of weight on " they killed him long ago" .This is , I think ,in the same conversation where Leaf tells them she was born in the time of the dragon and has wandered the earth for 200 yrs , etc.,etc. So , even if 2 yrs. might seem a long time to an ordinary child in ordinary circumstances , in this context , I think it would rule Benjen out , even to Bran.

Mormont tells Jon that rangers sent out to find Benjen have found slashes that he made on trees as far as the stony highlands to the northwest of CB.

The Nightfort is to the west of CB , so even if CH led Bran directly north ( unknown?), they are somewhat to the northwest of CB. He tells Bran that the "back door" to the cave lies 3 leagues farther north ,down a sink hole.

The Styr's party sets out to cross the wall from the Fist of the First Men , which is northwest from CB .They cross at Greyguard which is far west from CB. I haven't made a point ( yet) of checking the description of the entrance to Jon and Ygritte's cave..but might it be the back door , or close to it ?

At any rate , Benjen has been tracked going in the same general direction as Bran , and not so " long ago ". In that direction , the CoTF/BR have 2 possible entrances to their safe haven and an agent in CH .. and they have a reason to help Starks.

[cup_of_tea]

My girlfriend is still on the first book and put it down today, asking if Benjen turns out to be one of the leaders of the Others. Any takers for such a theory?

[aryagonnakill]

The Nightfort is to the west of CB , so even if CH led Bran directly north ( unknown?), they are somewhat to the northwest of CB. He tells Bran that the "back door" to the cave lies 3 leagues farther north ,down a sink hole.

Well the journeys map in the map book shows Bran having gone equally as far North as the fist of the first men and like 60ish miles to the East.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Guys, Coldhands cannot be Benjen. When GRRM says he died a long time ago, he isn't trying to trick or outsmart us, it is what it says. Also, this is a character that has lived for 200+ years saying this. Long time for her would be about 10 years.

[Prince of the North]

But why must a long-lived person always have to reference lengths of time relative to the length of their life? We certainly don't do that in our own lives. No, sorry, the "long ago" statement is not the "smoking gun" proof that people make it out to be. Thinking it is requires just as big of an assumption as anything else.

[SaskatoonX]

It's possible that Coldhands is some buddy of Bloodraven who companied him when he left NW and became greenseer.

[Brother Seamus]

re-read the Bran chapters with CH in DWD the last couple of days. it's made clear enough for me that CH keeps most of his face covered, so I have to conclude that the failure of bran to recognize his as benjen does not exclude the possibility that CH=benjen.

[Prince of the North]

It's possible that Coldhands is some buddy of Bloodraven who companied him when he left NW and became greenseer.

You're right, it is possible. I always wonder, though, if it turns out that CH has been kickin' around the north for decades or thousands of years: what's he been doing all this time? Just chillin' in a cave with the TEC? If he's been moving around north of the Wall all that time then why no mention of such a mysterious being in one of Old Nan's stories or, at least, a brief mention among the Wildlings, etc.? Martin is a really good foreshadower :dunno:

re-read the Bran chapters with CH in DWD the last couple of days. it's made clear enough for me that CH keeps most of his face covered, so I have to conclude that the failure of bran to recognize his as benjen does not exclude the possibility that CH=benjen.

Yes, I recently re-read those chapters as well. And one of things that really struck me on this most recent reading of those chapters was just how brutal the conditions were north of the Wall. Admittedly, it's just my opinion, but it just made me even less likely to buy into theories that Benjen is still alive, travelling ever northward, and we'll get to see the Heart of Winter, etc. through his eyes. I mean, Bran and the others barely made it to the cave alive and they had a lot of help :dunno:

[alienarea]

I'm mixed about this for a couple of things:

- if Coldhands were Benjen, Bran should have recognized him while they travel to the cave at some point even though Coldhands covers his face. Gestures, the way he moves, some details of his clothings (he would have the same Night Watch clothes as in Winterfell), speech patterns, ... Even a Stark can't be that dumb.

- if Coldhands were Benjen, he couldn't have placed the cache of dragonglass with a Night Watch coat

- Coldhands speeks in an tongue unknown to Bran. We don't know if it is the Old Tongue or if Benjen knows the Old Tongue

- if Benjen has placed the cache he is without his Night Watch coat and freezing to death

- we do not know how long Coldhands is as he is now. He could have been dead a long time and been revived recently

- during Robert's rebellion Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell, afterwards he left for the wall. Was he contacted by Bloodraven while he was the Stark in Winterfell?

- if the coat of the Night Watch placed with the cache of dragonglass was Benjen's, it looks like whoever attacked his party wanted him and gave the dragonglass in exchange. This points to the CotF. Crackpot: It is Benjen's blood in Bran's paste and his bones in the cave.

- Crackpot2: Craster lied and killed Benjen/set him up for the White Walker's because Benjen had it with Gilly and her child is his (bonus: mixing Craster's blood with Stark blood could be interesting), that is why Coldhands escorts Sam, Gilly and the Baby to the wall

- an argument that Coldhands is Benjen: He hides his face from Sam and Gilly as well as from Bran and Hodor. The only person all four of them have seen is Benjen.

[bemused]

Sam has never seen Benjen. I believe he arrives after Benjen has already left.

Oviously ,on re-reading , Jon and Ygritte's cave is too far south to be " the back door " , but it's very possible that Craster never saw Benjen if his marks led northwest . He could still have been close enough to the CoTF to be rescued.

[HodorForKing]

thats my theory, but I think that Bran, or even Jon, if he survived, will find some message from benjen left at the Frostfangs, because, if im sure, theres something in book three saying that Mance had unsealed the others when looking for the horn of winter there. When Jon or Bran explores the frostfangs looking for awsners about the others origins, I think they will find some clue left by benjen or some indicator that he have been there, looking for the same awsners. after that they will conclude that he discovered about the other weaknesses, and found the true horn of winter, hiding it with a lot of dragonglass in his black robe, to protect it from the wights, and was probably killed after that. this would make the horn destroyed by Mel a fake horn of winter, and the one jon found with the dragonglass, the true one, giving more importance for Samwell plotline, considering that the horn was given to him...

[CerseisPimp]

In all honesty, for me, Benjen has been put on the back burner for so long, I no longer care, lol

[bemused]

I just meant to say ,in regard to Mormont's raven saying "Dead, dead dead." That if indeed the CoTF and BR had recruited Benjen for their mission , they might want to reinforce the idea that he's dead to the NW.

[The wolf knight]

I have a belief Benjen is what brings back Jon. Melisandre and Tormund get Jon's body and Benjen shows up. The whole "only death can pay for life and there is power in king's blood" thing goes on. Melisandre plunges Longclaw into Benjen, and Jon gets up. This would work because this would be Jon's Nissa Nissa. His family and honor.

Why cant melisandre just kiss him to life like thoros can ?

[sumant30]

He's either an epilogue or a prologue character, which probably means one long chapter musing about what he has done so far before being captured/killed by the Others

This is a good possibility because it is very hard to survive in lands of always winter and benjen is alone there so however good ranger he is his survival does seems to be a dim possibility.

If he's going to show up again, TWoW is the book to do it in. Assuming that R+L=J, other than possibly Howland Reed, Benjen Stark seems to be the best potential link for Jon to find out about it. He was around for the events of the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, and probably has some idea of what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna there.

Of course, he doesn't have to still be alive to play that role. Jon (or someone) might come across records he'd left behind, final words, that sort of thing.

No benjen does not know about R + L theory the only surviving person who knows that is howland reed or possibly his children who will reveal it to bran when the time is right i guess.

When Coldhands was introduced, I thought Benjen Stark! but we cannot be completely sure of that, Jon (I believe he will live in TWoW) will have to lead a ranging to lands of always winter at some point in TWoW, that is when we will know the fate of Benjen Stark

I still do think cold hands is benjen stark.

Benjen's gone, folks. His disappearance was required to bring the crows north of the Wall to see all that they saw, for Sam to learn how they're killed, for Mormont to die, for Jon to prepare for the Wildling and to become Lord Commander (and then to die). If he isn't back by now, and he wasn't with the Children, then he's dead. No other explanation makes any sense. He's not hiding, he didn't run off to Skagos. He served his purpose in the story, and he's never coming back.

Agreed.

But I believe he has said we will find out what happened to Benjen, so obviously ,whether alive or dead , his story influences the greater story.. my guess is he's alive.

His story influences the greater story in which way??

[Arrein The Only]

He could literally write a "Dear Jon" letter.

"Dear Jon,

By the time you read these lines, I'll be gone..."

i literally lol'd

[McShrek]

I dunno about Benjen=Coldhands. Leaf said "they killed him long ago".

That doesn't sound like she meant "like a year ago".

For Leaf a year would be nothing, but she's talking to humans, taking their feel of time into consideration.

From Bran's point of view, a year can be considered "a long time", especially considered that a lot happened.