Official Court of Law v 12: Theon Greyjoy alias “Reek”

[The Chequered Raven]

Five Counts of Murder:-

The Defendant is charged with having unlawfully and intentionally killed the following:-

1.1 Goodman Farlen, the Kennelmaster of Winterfell. Guilty

1.2 One unnamed miller’s wife. Guilty

1.3 The children of the said miller’s wife. Guilty

1.4 Ralph Kenning, garrison commander of Moat Cailin. Innocent, RK was dieing in agony, killing him is not considered murder but giving mercy!

1.5 Master Benfred Tallhart Guilty

One Count of False Imprisonment

2. The Defendant is charged with falsely imprisoning Lords Bran and Rickon Stark, Maester Luwin, and the servants of Winterfell. Innocent. The defendant was in open rebellion against his lige lord, therefore the Lords Stark, the maester and the servants were his prisoners after conquering Winterfell. Lord Brandon Stark has yieldet Winterfell to him.

One Count of Treason

3. The Defendant is charged with waging war against Lord Robb Stark, whom he had accepted as his King. Guilty

One Count of Piracy

4. The Defendant is charged with having reaved the Stony Shore, as commander of the ship “Sea Bitch”. Guilty

One Count of Abetting a Forcible Marriage

5. The Defendant is charged with having abetted a forcible marriage, by giving away Mistress Jeyne Poole, alias Lady Arya Stark, to be married to Lord Ramsay Bolton, against her express wishes. Innocent. The defendant was threaten to be flayed by refusing ta abett the marriage. Even if the threat was not explicitly spoken to him it was obvious, taking his earlier treatment in consideration.

One Count of Theft

6. The Defendant is charged with having eaten rats in the dungeon of the Dreadfort,

without having received the permission of their owner, Lord Roose Bolton, Warden of the North. Innocent! It's not prooven wether the rat was a leal subject to the Lord of the Dreadfort or a free rat, squatting in the dungeons of the Dreadfort.

Sentenced to death by the sword in front of a Weirwood!

[Minsc]

Honestly, I can't remember what exactly happened, except that this was the execution Theon botched. In Westeros, the lord of a castle executes criminals who break the law. Again, I can't remember the exact crime Farlen commited, but commit a crime he did, and Theon was well within his rights as the lawful lord of Winterfell to execute the criminal.

Theon charges him with the false murder of a number of Ironborn that have been killed in order to hide the secret about Bran and Rickon's escape.

1. Not Guilty of Murder, however is found guilty of Miscarriage of Justice thus ordered to pay fine to victim's family.

2. Guilty

3. Guilty

4. Not Guilty, act was the assistance of providing mercy to a suffering individual.

5. Not Guilty, it was under Damphair's authority that he was sacrificed which is a religious sacrament for Theon's people.

6. Not Guilty, he lawfully captured Winterfell during a time of war and is in the right to hold individuals hostage to ensure his rule.

7. Not Guilty, he never was a bannerman of Robb, instead he was at all times first sworn to loyalty to his father who declared war against Robb. Thus, he is no more a traitor then Robb is regarding his(Robb's) rebellion against the Iron Throne.

8. Not Guilty, was simply an act of war thus not illegal.

9. Not Guilty, he was forced into participating the same as Jeyne

10. Not Guilty, only occurred as means of self-preservation

Sentence: Only guilty on two accounts of murder, nominally this would be sentence of life imprisonment however the defendant has already received disproportionate punishment for his crimes that he should be allowed reprieve and only have to pay a fine and be returned to medical care.

[Lion of Judah]

Farlan didn't commit any crime. But was it breaking any law to have Farlan killed when Theon ruled WF?

By the standards and precedent established by this court he absolutely broke the law. Not sure if it's unlawful for a lord to bear false witness against his subjects though. If he does so in the king's name that maybe deemed as unlawful, but as outrageous as it may sound a lords honesty maybe viewed as just a courtesy. I hope I'm wrong about that though, but I think someone will post some historical precedent for us to reference.

[Groat]

Here is the passage in question: "Farlen was as likely a suspect as any, so Theon sat in judgment, called him guilty, and condemned him to death. Even that went sour. As he knelt to the block, the kennelmaster said, "M'lord Eddard always did his own killings." Theon had to take the axe himself or look a weakling. His hands were sweating, so the shaft twisted in his grip as he swung and the first blow landed between Farlen's shoulders. It took three more cuts to hack through all that bone and muscle and sever the head from the body, and afterward he was sick, remembering all the times they'd sat over a cup of mead talking of hounds and hunting."

He was blamed for the deaths committed by men loyal to Theon.

After reviewing the evidence I stand by my verdict. Murder was commited, Theon sat in judgement and pronounced the accused guilty and sentenced him to death. This is in accordance to the laws of Westeros as within the rights of a lord. Whether or not Farlen was actually guilty is irrelevant, as are Theon's personal thoughts on the matter. A person's thoughts are not legitimate evidence, and Theon broke no laws when sentencing Farlen to death.

[Lion of Judah]

After reviewing the evidence I stand by my verdict. Murder was commited, Theon sat in judgement and pronounced the accused guilty and sentenced him to death. This is in accordance to the laws of Westeros as within the rights of a lord. Whether or not Farlen was actually guilty is irrelevant, as are Theon's personal thoughts on the matter. A person's thoughts are not legitimate evidence, and Theon broke no laws when sentencing Farlen to death.

What? Your verdict is yours to decide, but frankly this is immoral. A trial was sponsored by Theon to determine guilt or innocence, the trial itself was illegal because Theon(the judge in the case) knew that the accused was innocent. We are not only talking about Theon's personal thought's, we're talking about solid textual evidence that you're choosing to ignore.

[Groat]

What? Your verdict is yours to decide, but frankly this is immoral. A trial was sponsored by Theon to determine guilt or innocence, the trial itself was illegal because Theon(the judge in the case) knew that the accused was innocent. We are not only talking about Theon's personal thought's, we're talking about solid textual evidence that you're choosing to ignore.

Well Im not talking about textual evidence, I'm talking about legal evidence. It doesn't matter that Theon knew he was innocent, Theon's actions were in accordance with the laws of Westeros. A lord can legally sit in judgement of anyone accused of a crime, and pass the sentence he see's fit. This is how Westeros works. Theon broke no law.

Lawyered!

Edit: For the record I agree with you about it being immoral, Theon executing Farlen was a criminal act, but a lawyer who makes decision based on morals would be pretty bad lawyer

[Lion of Judah]

Well Im not talking about textual evidence, I'm talking about legal evidence. It doesn't matter that Theon knew he was innocent, Theon's actions were in accordance with the laws of Westeros. A lord can legally sit in judgement of anyone accused of a crime, and pass the sentence he see's fit. This is how Westeros works. Theon broke no law.

Lawyered!

But that's how these threads work, we use textual evidence. :dunno:

[The Red Hand]

By the standards and precedent established by this court he absolutely broke the law. Not sure if it's unlawful for a lord to bear false witness against his subjects though. If he does so in the king's name that maybe deemed as unlawful, but as outrageous as it may sound a lords honesty maybe viewed as just a courtesy. I hope I'm wrong about that though, but I think someone will post some historical precedent for us to reference.

I know it's messed up but it seems that lords can pretty much do wahtever they want to thier subjects/smallfolk. The Reynes of Castamere, the rape of the Riverlands, the Red Wedding. Seems like the winners can pretty much do what they want in Westeros. What Theon did to Farlan was definitely messed up but I don't think it was against the law at the time. Somebody PLEASE tell me I'm wrong about this.

And I agree with Minsc about the Farlan thing.

[Mman]

1.1 Goodman Farlen, the Kennelmaster of Winterfell.

Not guilty. Theon was the Lord of Winterfell at the time, and the kennelmaster was lawfully found guilty of his crimes and executed.

1.2 One unnamed miller’s wife.

Guilty

1.3 The children of the said miller’s wife.

Guilty

1.4 Ralph Kenning, garrison commander of Moat Cailin.

Not guilty, given the circumstances.

1.5 Master Benfred Tallhart

Not guilty. Theon did not kill Tallhart.

2. The Defendant is charged with falsely imprisoning Lords Bran and Rickon Stark, Maester Luwin, and the servants of Winterfell.

Not guilty. The Starks nor the maester were imprisoned at Winterfell. They were held captive, which was within Theon's right as captor of Winterfell. If this is upheld then Ned is guilty of the same for "imprisoning" Theon.

3. The Defendant is charged with waging war against Lord Robb Stark, whom he had accepted as his King.

Not guilty. Unless this court has ruled that Lord Robb Stark was the true King of Westeros, this isn't treason, just a morally repugnant act.

4. The Defendant is charged with having reaved the Stony Shore, as commander of the ship “Sea Bitch”.

Not guilty. This was an act of war, not piracy.

5. The Defendant is charged with having abetted a forcible marriage, by giving away Mistress Jeyne Poole, alias Lady Arya Stark, to be married to Lord Ramsay Bolton, against her express wishes.

Dismissed. This one is just silly. Theon was coerced the same as the Jayne Poole, and the only other possible outcome of this situation would have resulted in at least his death, and most likely Jayne Poole's as well.

6. The Defendant is charged with having eaten rats in the dungeon of the Dreadfort,

without having received the permission of their owner, Lord Roose Bolton, Warden of the North.

Dismissed. At the time Theon was a lawful prisoner of the Boltons. As their prisoner, it was the Bolton's duty to reasonably care for the well-being of Theon, which they failed at.

In summation, for the counts of piracy, treason, and murder of the Kennelmaster and Master Tallhart I find Theon not guilty. All charges for acts that occurred after his capture by the Boltons should be dismissed. For the charges of murder of the Miller's wife and her sons, I find Theon guilty, and he should stripped of his lands and title and be banished to the wall to serve for the remainder of his life.

[Groat]

But that's how these threads work, we use textual evidence. :dunno:

Well if that's how these threads work, then I suppose I would be wrong. I was under the assumption that we determine guilt or innocence based on a person's actions, not as omnipotent gods that know the accused thoughts.

[Lion of Judah]

I know it's messed up but it seems that lords can pretty much do wahtever they want to thier subjects/smallfolk. The Reynes of Castamere, the rape of the Riverlands, the Red Wedding. Seems like the winners can pretty much do what they want in Westeros. What Theon did to Farlan was definitely messed up but I don't think it was against the law at the time. Somebody PLEASE tell me I'm wrong about this.

And I agree with Minsc about the Farlan thing.

That may indeed be the case, but we are judging using our legal standards and our knowledge of the text. If you scroll through the intro of the thread you will see: As for as evidence that can be submitted, posters can submit any argument they deem relevant. However we cannot use any pardons (save in one instance) or prior convictions as evidence in the matter. Our court will not recognize the judgement of any other court or ruling body.

The latter part may help navigate the legal bind we find ourselves in with this particular trial. I also site the case of Tywin Lannister where the court did not give consideration to his title as lord when trying his case.

[Lion of Judah]

Well if that's how these threads work, then I suppose I would be wrong. I was under the assumption that we determine guilt or innocence based on a person's actions, not as omnipotent gods that know the accused thoughts.

Using our knowledge of the text which entails character thoughts, words, actions etc. in judgement of their deeds is far from omnipotent. We are judging actions committed throughout a literary body of work, why is it omnipotent to use that body of work for our judgement and analysis?

[Nudu]

The Defendant is charged with having unlawfully and intentionally killed the following:-

1.2 One unnamed miller’s wife.

Guilty.

1.3 The children of the said miller’s wife.

Guilty

1.4 Ralph Kenning, garrison commander of Moat Cailin.

Innocent. He didn't know that Ramsay would kill them.

1.5 Master Benfred Tallhart

Innocent. He was a war prisoner and he didn't obey his Lord so he deserved to die.

One Count of False Imprisonment

2. The Defendant is charged with falsely imprisoning Lords Bran and Rickon Stark, Maester Luwin, and the servants of Winterfell.

Innocent. They were at war and he conquered the castle.

One Count of Treason

3. The Defendant is charged with waging war against Lord Robb Stark, whom he had accepted as his King.

A man's loyality is to his family most. Innocent.

One Count of Piracy

4. The Defendant is charged with having reaved the Stony Shore, as commander of the ship “Sea Bitch”.

Innocent. They were at war and it is legal in Ironborn law.

One Count of Abetting a Forcible Marriage

5. The Defendant is charged with having abetted a forcible marriage, by giving away Mistress Jeyne Poole, alias Lady Arya Stark, to be married to Lord Ramsay Bolton, against her express wishes.

Innocent. He was under death threat so he didn't have any choice.

One Count of Theft

6. The Defendant is charged with having eaten rats in the dungeon of the Dreadfort,

without having received the permission of their owner, Lord Roose Bolton, Warden of the North.

Guilty.

Sentence: As long as he suffered a lot and got his punishment some Monetary fine would be enough.

[Groat]

Using our knowledge of the text which entails character thoughts, words, actions etc. in judgement of their deeds is far from omnipotent. We are judging actions committed throughout a literary body of work, why is it omnipotent to use that body of work for our judgement and analysis?

Well if we are judging their actions, then a person's thoughts can't be used against them. If we are to judge what Theon did soley by his actions committed throughout the literary body of work, then he committed no crime (WRT Farlen only). It is only when admitting Theon's private thoughts on the matter as evidence, which only a being of omnipotence could ascertain, that we are able to find the guilt of Theon's crime.

EDIT: Lawyered!

[Lion of Judah]

Theon charges him with the false murder of a number of Ironborn that have been killed in order to hide the secret about Bran and Rickon's escape.

1. Not Guilty of Murder, however is found guilty of Miscarriage of Justice thus ordered to pay fine to victim's family.

2. Guilty

3. Guilty

4. Not Guilty, act was the assistance of providing mercy to a suffering individual.

5. Not Guilty, it was under Damphair's authority that he was sacrificed which is a religious sacrament for Theon's people.

6. Not Guilty, he lawfully captured Winterfell during a time of war and is in the right to hold individuals hostage to ensure his rule.

7. Not Guilty, he never was a bannerman of Robb, instead he was at all times first sworn to loyalty to his father who declared war against Robb. Thus, he is no more a traitor then Robb is regarding his(Robb's) rebellion against the Iron Throne.

8. Not Guilty, was simply an act of war thus not illegal.

9. Not Guilty, he was forced into participating the same as Jeyne

10. Not Guilty, only occurred as means of self-preservation

Sentence: Only guilty on two accounts of murder, nominally this would be sentence of life imprisonment however the defendant has already received disproportionate punishment for his crimes that he should be allowed reprieve and only have to pay a fine and be returned to medical care.

He was not a bannerman, but he swore an oath to Robb after Robb Stark was named King in the North which is why he went to the Iron Islands with Robb Starks offer to his father. He did so as a servant to Robb Stark, prove to the court that he was not bound by oath to Robb Stark.

[Beorn Snow]

1.1 guilty

1.2 guilty

1.3 guilty

1.4 guilty

1.5 guilty

2. guilty

3. guilty

4. guilty

5. Not guilty on account of being forced

6. Not guilty; that charge is absurd.

Theon should be sentenced to serve in the NW. I cannot agree with the harshest punishment possible on the account that Theon has already suffered tremendously for his misdeeds.

[Lion of Judah]

Well if we are judging their actions, then a person's thoughts can't be used against them. If we are to judge what Theon did soley by his actions committed throughout the literary body of work, then he committed no crime (WRT Farlen only). It is only when admitting Theon's private thoughts on the matter as evidence, which only a being of omnipotence could ascertain, that we are able to find the guilt of Theon's crime.

EDIT: Lawyered!

This is the final thing I will say because you're trying to run down the rules of the court and the way the thread has been done for 12 volumes now. His thoughts are a part of the text and in these court threads we consider all textual evidence when passing judgement.

[Minsc]

He was not a bannerman, but he swore an oath to Robb after Robb Stark was named King in the North which is why he went to the Iron Islands with Robb Starks offer to his father. He did so as a servant to Robb Stark, prove to the court that he was not bound by oath to Robb Stark.

He swore an oath to deliver Robb's message to Balon, which he did only Balon rejected it. Furthermore, by returning Theon any claim over Theon as an hostage was dismissed thus his loyalty was fully returned to his father and liege lord Balon Greyjoy.

It is only the height of hypocrisy that Robb expects his friend to betray his family for himself(Robb), especially in the regards to how he is also currently rebelling against his legitimate king out of loyalty to his own father.

[Alester Florent]

The problem with ignoring lordship is that in Westeros, a death-penalty-happy society, pretty much every lord is going to have killed or ordered the death of someone through execution at some point. In order for all of these not to be murders, we have to accept them as lawful killings.

But then what makes it lawful? Due process? The right verdict? What happens if an executioner knows, or strongly suspects, the man isn't guilty, but kills him anyway? (Ilyn Payne?) Is he as guilty of the "murder" as the lord who sent him there? Farlen can't be the first innocent man unjustly sentenced; going by the Dunk and Egg stories, had Dunk not chosen trial by combat, Baelor Breakspear, the Mary Sue of Westeros, would be up against it for colluding in having an innocent man maimed. In this case, due process was followed, it's just that the Westerosi justice system is bollocks.

I think it's arguable either way. Certainly Theon could be done for perverting the course of justice and causing death that way. But, as Groat suggests, I think some legal reasoning needs to be applied to work out whether the killing was actually lawful and therefore not murder, rather than just looking at and saying "yup, he killed him, also I hate him, he's guilty".

[WinterKing]

A great number of people are saying that because Theon already suffered he shoul have some kind of reduced sentence, but there is precedence in this court for this?Because his sufferings do not change his culpability in any way.