Tyrion is a Targaryen (His Siblings may be as well)

[Light a wight tonight]

However this turns out in the books , I have to say I find the idea of Tywin possibly being impotent ( in spite of his much vaunted prowess in other areas ) highly appealing. :D

This doesn't square with the fairly well founded theory that Tywin was the King's Hand who had the tunnel to Chataya's brothel built so he could go there unseen.

[Mladen]

This doesn't square with the fairly well founded theory that Tywin was the King's Hand who had the tunnel to Chataya's brothel built so he could go there unseen.

Never heard of that, but I am impressed with it. Remember what Varys said Tyrion after Tywin`s death

“I did. But I never knew what he was.”

Varys tittered. “And now you do.”

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

I definitely see what you are saying. However, Tywin can't prove that Tyrion is not his child, and the fact is Tyrion is Joanna Lannister's child. So while Tywin may believe Tyrion is not his, and he may hate him for it, he is always going to have a small doubt in the back of his mind that maybe Tyrion really is his child. He was never able to confront Joanna about it and find out the truth because she died giving bitrh to Tyrion. This is something most people would be conflicted with. The thought of killing Tyrion may have crossed Tywin's mind, but on the off chance Tyrion is his son, Tywin would be cursed by the gods.

Tywin says something to Tyrion at one point telling him that he is Tywin's punishment sent from the gods. I think that Tywin views Tyrion as a punishment not because he is a dwarf and because Joanna died giving birth to him, but because everytime Tywin sees him, he is looking at a Dwarf that might not be his son, but he can't prove it, so by all the laws of gods and men he has to provide for him and let him carry the Lannister name.

Okay, you got me there, that's a good reason as to why Tywin might not have acted. I just feel like it would be strange for Gemma to have that whole speech about how Tyrion had the most of Tywin in him, only for Tyrion to not actually be his son. Kinda cheapens Tyrion's relationship with his father. IF it is true though, then it is what it is, and there's nothing I can do. And knowing George, he'd probably write it in a way that would make me squee with joy. But whether it be true or not, I still hate the idea.

[Guest]

I didn't say that I don't think a Targ can be kind or compassionate. I think it's a joke that Tyrion can be called kind and compassionate and an even bigger joke to try to use some sort of 'kindness gene' argument to further a very shaky theory.

And I didn't say that how kind one is is relegated to genetics. I only suggested that it might factor in. Obviously environment plays a role too, and the choices one makes as a person.

[mattah84]

.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

This is a joke. And Techelles asked the right question: Did Tyrion inherit this 'kindness' gene from Aerys?

If Tywin didn't think Tyrion was 100% Lannister, he would have just let him die when he was born. He wouldn't have even had to do so explicitly. He could have just not ordered the maesters to do everything in their power to keep him alive.

Not exactly the official realm of Westeros, but on the same continent...Craster. Look at what incest is all about with these families -Lannisters, Targaryens, Craster. It's all about narcissism. The Targaryens were into it because of some belief in blood purity. The Lannisters, at least the ones involved in incest, think they are above certain laws and traditions. Craster is all about that chip on his shoulder for being turned away by the Night's Watch as a baby so he went and built himself a 'keep' and stocked it with wives and daughters who become wives. Incest represents narcissism, among other things.

I'm really hoping I'm not sparking some sort of "Craster and all of his daughter-wives are secret Targaryens" thread.

I don't know if Tyrion got his kindness gene from Aerys. Thats kind of a wierd question. I was just pointing out that out of the different behavior we have seen from Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion, Tyrion is the most compassionate of all them. So for Tywin to call him an ill-made spiteful little creature, when Tywin is a whole lot more spiteful then him (having his guards bang Tysha and making Tyrion watch, and making Jaime lie to Tyrion about Tysha not loving him and being a whore), is kind of crazy. So I think Tywin hates Tyrion for more than simply being a dwarf, and killing Joanna Lannister when she gave birth to him (things that Tyrion has absolutely no control over). Tyrion also doesn't really have control over being Aerys' bastard if he is in fact that, but it is definitely understandable for Tywin to hate him for it, if it is the case.

Tywin is pretty cruel to Tyrion. He isn't exactly nice to any of his children, but he does treat Tyrion significantly different and meaner than the other two.

As I stated before, it isn't so cut and dry for Tywin. Any man would be conflicted about killing a baby or a child that they thought wasn't theirs, but at the same time they weren't 100 % sure. Did you see the first episode of Season 3 this year? Tywin can't prove that Tyrion is not his son, so by all the laws of gods and men he has to take care of him and let him walk around with the name Lannister. That is why Tywin considers Tyrion a punishment from the Gods. He has to watch him walk around, knowing that he might not be his son, and also knowing that he can never prove it because Joanna Lannister died giving birth to him. Are you saying that if Joanna Lannister died giving birth to Jaime and Cersei, then Tywin would absolutely hate them to? I don't really think that he would. When you look at it like that, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to hate someone just because they are a Dwarf and are deformed. It makes way more sense for Tywin to hate Tyrion because he suspects that he might not be his child. Sorry......

And Craster.....Craster isn't exactly a noble house. He lived beyond the wall, and he was one man that kept reproducing with his own offspring to sacrifice his male children to the gods, or whoever he sacrificed them to. The point I was making there, was that outside of the Targaryens, incest doesn't seem to be a very common theme throughout Westeros. We see the Targaryens do it, the Lannisters, and a little bit with the Frey's. However, when you compare "3" familes, to the large amount of families we have met throughout ASOIAF, the concept of incest really hasn't been that prevalent.

Also, people were trying to say that the Karstarks got their Stark blood in their veins from marriages between the Starks and the Karstarks, and that that was proof of more incest in Westeros. But actually, the Karstarks got the Stark blood in their veins, because the founder of the house was named Karlon Stark, and he was awarded the lands that are now Karhold because he made the Boltons kneel and swear fealty.

[Mladen]

As I stated before, it isn't so cut and dry for Tywin. Any man would be conflicted about killing a baby or a child that they thought wasn't theirs, but at the same time they weren't 100 % sure. Did you see the first episode of Season 3 this year? Tywin can't prove that Tyrion is not his son, so by all the laws of gods and men he has to take care of him and let him walk around with the name Lannister. That is why Tywin considers Tyrion a punishment from the Gods. He has to watch him walk around, knowing that he might not be his son, and also knowing that he can never prove it because Joanna Lannister died giving birth to him. Are you saying that if Joanna Lannister died giving birth to Jaime and Cersei, then Tywin would absolutely hate them to? I don't really think that he would. When you look at it like that, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to hate someone just because they are a Dwarf and are deformed. It makes way more sense for Tywin to hate Tyrion because he suspects that he might not be his child. Sorry......

Correct question would be have you read the Storm of swords?

This line will always be debated, just as one `you are not son of mine`, but at the end we all know what it means. Tywin as proud man rejects the notion that God in man`s skin such as him could have ever procreate an abomination like Tyrion, what Tyrion is defacto in his eyes. After having two more than beautiful children, how could he have a dwarf son? Tywin truly doesn`t doubt that Tyrion isn`t his, he only wants to indulge his God complex with that `You are not my son`.

Also, people were trying to say that the Karstarks got their Stark blood in their veins from marriages between the Starks and the Karstarks, and that that was proof of more incest in Westeros. But actually, the Karstarks got the Stark blood in their veins, because the founder of the house was named Karlon Stark, and he was awarded the lands that are now Karhold because he made the Boltons kneel and swear fealty.

Since I was the first who mentioned Starks and Karstarks, let me clarify this. We know they come from same bloodline, and I think someone had said somewhere about marriages between Starks and Karstarks. I can`t tell how close are Starks and Karstarks or for that matter, Lannisters of Casterly Rock and Lannisters of Lannisport, but neither of those marriages represent incest.

[mattah84]

Correct question would be have you read the Storm of swords?

This line will always be debated, just as one `you are not son of mine`, but at the end we all know what it means. Tywin as proud man rejects the notion that God in man`s skin such as him could have ever procreate an abomination like Tyrion, what Tyrion is defacto in his eyes. After having two more than beautiful children, how could he have a dwarf son? Tywin truly doesn`t doubt that Tyrion isn`t his, he only wants to indulge his God complex with that `You are not my son`.

Since I was the first who mentioned Starks and Karstarks, let me clarify this. We know they come from same bloodline, and I think someone had said somewhere about marriages between Starks and Karstarks. I can`t tell how close are Starks and Karstarks or for that matter, Lannisters of Casterly Rock and Lannisters of Lannisport, but neither of those marriages represent incest.

Tywin's quote to Tyrion, thats all on how you interpret it. It could easily be reasoned that Tywin hates him because he doesn't think he is his child, but he can't really prove it.

And with regards to this........there have been actual marriages between the Lannisters that we know about.........I don't know about ANY marriages between the Starks and the Karstarks. I thought that was important to point out since you lumped them in together like they were one and the same.

[Mladen]

Tywin's quote to Tyrion, thats all on how you interpret it. It could easily be reasoned that Tywin hates him because he doesn't think he is his child, but he can't really prove it.

And with regards to this........there have been actual marriages between the Lannisters that we know about.........I don't know about ANY marriages between the Starks and the Karstarks. I thought that was important to point out since you lumped them in together like they were one and the same.

People lie. Sometimes to benefit and sometimes to make their lifes easier. And that`s just what was Tywin doing. If you take literally every word, you would be so confused.

As for Stark/Karstark marriages, I haven`t lumped them together. Starks rarely married outside the North, that`s why Rickard was so special, he wanted to marry his heir to Southern girl and his daughter to Southern lord. It`s not quite incorrect to assume that there were some marriages between Starks and Karstarks in the past.

[-Ghost-]

As I stated before, it isn't so cut and dry for Tywin. Any man would be conflicted about killing a baby or a child that they thought wasn't theirs, but at the same time they weren't 100 % sure. Did you see the first episode of Season 3 this year? Tywin can't prove that Tyrion is not his son, so by all the laws of gods and men he has to take care of him and let him walk around with the name Lannister. That is why Tywin considers Tyrion a punishment from the Gods. He has to watch him walk around, knowing that he might not be his son, and also knowing that he can never prove it because Joanna Lannister died giving birth to him. Are you saying that if Joanna Lannister died giving birth to Jaime and Cersei, then Tywin would absolutely hate them to? I don't really think that he would. When you look at it like that, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to hate someone just because they are a Dwarf and are deformed. It makes way more sense for Tywin to hate Tyrion because he suspects that he might not be his child. Sorry......

And Craster.....Craster isn't exactly a noble house. He lived beyond the wall, and he was one man that kept reproducing with his own offspring to sacrifice his male children to the gods, or whoever he sacrificed them to. The point I was making there, was that outside of the Targaryens, incest doesn't seem to be a very common theme throughout Westeros. We see the Targaryens do it, the Lannisters, and a little bit with the Frey's. However, when you compare "3" familes, to the large amount of families we have met throughout ASOIAF, the concept of incest really hasn't been that prevalent.

Also, people were trying to say that the Karstarks got their Stark blood in their veins from marriages between the Starks and the Karstarks, and that that was proof of more incest in Westeros. But actually, the Karstarks got the Stark blood in their veins, because the founder of the house was named Karlon Stark, and he was awarded the lands that are now Karhold because he made the Boltons kneel and swear fealty.

Lord Manderly asked Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin about marrying his cousin Lady Hornwood after her husband died, and they had no problem with it. It isnt some crazy thing that only 2 families do.

And Tywin says the gods gave him Tyrion to teach him humility, not as a punishment. The great Tywin Lannister that has strived so hard to make his family perfect and powerful got stuck with a dwarf for a son that goes around whoring and bringing shame to his family name.

He does not have to provide for him or give him anything at all, he just cant do anything about Tyrion using his last name and his sigil. If he truly believed he wasnt his or even had the slightest thought, he easily could have shipped him to the Wall like Randall Tarley did to Sam. Especially since Tyrion was a second son.

[JLE]

Since Tywin's marriage to Joanna Lannister - a first cousin - apparently raised no comment, it can probably be deduced that first-cousin marriages are considered acceptable in Westeros, even if anything closer (e.g. brother/sister, parent/child, uncle/niece or aunt/nephew) is considered incest.

But that's pretty much been the way it is throughout Western history. First-cousin marriages have sometimes been on one side of the "legal / illegal" line, and sometimes on the other (and, even if "legal", first-cousin marriages may well be socially unaccepted): but generally, anything closer than that is usually illegal, and anything further apart - second cousin or more remote - has pretty much always been okay.

With the Targaryens appearing pretty much like the old Ptolemies of Egypt, who similarly routinely practiced incestuous marriage (of course, like some - but not all - of the previous Pharaonic dynasties: and of course, like any divine pantheon you care to name.) I believe that even in Ptolemaic Egypt, incest was forbidden or at least not routinely practiced outside the royal dynasty, although I may be wrong on this...

(Some people mention early Roman imperial dynasty as being incestuous: Caligula certainly was, and Nero, but not in marriage: and they were both viewed as madmen for this among other proclivities. And Claudius married a niece - but needed an official special dispensation from the Senate, which they granted only because he swore NOT to have children with her, the marriage was basically to give himself a helper in running the nation's infernal politics, coupled with an alternative heir, her son by a previous marriage, in case his own child didn't survive to adulthood. Which became a self-fulfilling prophecy when Claudius was poisoned and the step-son Nero murdered the natural son Britannicus...)

[Mladen]

Since Tywin's marriage to Joanna Lannister - a first cousin - apparently raised no comment, it can probably be deduced that first-cousin marriages are considered acceptable in Westeros, even if anything closer (e.g. brother/sister, parent/child, uncle/niece or aunt/nephew) is considered incest.

Joanna wasn`t Tywin`s first cousin. She is of cadet branch of House Lannister, and that`s significantly more distant than first cousins. We know Lannisters of Lannisport like to brag they are close cousins with Lannisters of CR, but that`s not too close.

[mcb]

Joanna wasn`t Tywin`s first cousin. She is of cadet branch of House Lannister, and that`s significantly more distant than first cousins. We know Lannisters of Lannisport like to brag they are close cousins with Lannisters of CR, but that`s not too close.

There's Stafford Lannister's family tree in the wiki, where he and Joanna are Tywin's first cousins.

[Mladen]

There's Stafford Lannister's family tree in the wiki, where he and Joanna are Tywin's first cousins.

Then I stand corrected. Appologies are in order, I was mistaken. I never thought they were THAT close.

[mattah84]

People lie. Sometimes to benefit and sometimes to make their lifes easier. And that`s just what was Tywin doing. If you take literally every word, you would be so confused.

As for Stark/Karstark marriages, I haven`t lumped them together. Starks rarely married outside the North, that`s why Rickard was so special, he wanted to marry his heir to Southern girl and his daughter to Southern lord. It`s not quite incorrect to assume that there were some marriages between Starks and Karstarks in the past.

Actually Tywin was kind of a hypocrite. Because that was one way him and Tyrion were actually alike. Tyrion found Shae in Tywn's room when he killed him, and he proceeded to kill her to. So Tywin didn't mind having whores himself. So again, not a strong enough reason for Tywin to hate Tyrion so much.

I think it might be incorrect to assume that there were marriages between the Starks and Karstarks in the past, because we haven't heard of any. But who knows, maybe GRRM has some previous Stark/Karstark marriages cooked up for us. I for one, don't remember there being any. If there were, like I said feel free to post the quote.

[bemused]

This doesn't square with the fairly well founded theory that Tywin was the King's Hand who had the tunnel to Chataya's brothel built so he could go there unseen.

:D :D Oops! I guess that's called a slip of the quip... :D It was very late at night for me ..I meant to say sterile , not impotent, of course. 'scuse me..

I do think it's ironic that Tywin is held up as the guy to get the job done. And he's effective , if ruthless..( and this probably could explain the absence of bastards ) .. I take a nasty delight in the idea that he never met a job he couldn't do, except for the one of ensuring the continuance of his dynasty.

[mattah84]

Lord Manderly asked Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin about marrying his cousin Lady Hornwood after her husband died, and they had no problem with it. It isnt some crazy thing that only 2 families do.

And Tywin says the gods gave him Tyrion to teach him humility, not as a punishment. The great Tywin Lannister that has strived so hard to make his family perfect and powerful got stuck with a dwarf for a son that goes around whoring and bringing shame to his family name.

He does not have to provide for him or give him anything at all, he just cant do anything about Tyrion using his last name and his sigil. If he truly believed he wasnt his or even had the slightest thought, he easily could have shipped him to the Wall like Randall Tarley did to Sam. Especially since Tyrion was a second son.

I think that Lord Manderly wanted to do that because of a situation like what happened with Roose Bolton's bastard Ramsay. It was meant more to protect her lands from being taken.

I'm pretty sure that Tywin does say the gods are punishing him with Tyrion. Either way, he at least treats him so horribly its obvious he feels that way about Tyrion. And he is a hypocrite about having whores and Tyrion not taking things seriously. Tyrion organized the defense of Kings Landing and killed thousands of Stannis' men before they even reached shore, and Tywin himself has whores because he had Shae with him in his night chambers when Tyrion killed him. So Tywin was a great battle commander, a great warden of the west and great with gold, but the private Tywin when he is with his family, is NOT that great.

[mattah84]

:D :D Oops! I guess that's called a slip of the quip... :D It was very late at night for me ..I meant to say sterile , not impotent, of course. 'scuse me..

I do think it's ironic that Tywin is held up as the guy to get the job done. And he's effective , if ruthless..( and this probably could explain the absence of bastards ) .. I take a nasty delight in the idea that he never met a job he couldn't do, except for the one of ensuring the continuance of his dynasty.

Couldn't agree more. I think it would be hilarious if Tywin was shooting blanks......

There is also the scene in a feast for crows where the silent sister who is probably Joanna Lannister hints to Jaime in his dream/non-dream thing that him and Cersei might not be Tywin's.

Jaime thinks that he is having a dream while he is in Riverrun. He sees a woman dressed as a silent sister.

Silent Sister: You don't recognize me.......perhaps you will one day forget your Father? (Possible Silent Sister is Joanna Lannister)

Jaime: This is just a dream.

Silent Sister: Then why do you only have one hand?

Jaime then notices that its true and that in his dreams he always has both hands.

Silent Sister: Men always dream of what they want most but are denied. Tywin for example always wanted a son who was a great knight......and a daughter who would be queen.

Jaime: But I am in the Kings Guard and Cersei is the Queen?

The Silent Sister looks away as a tear rolls down her cheek.

GRRM must of wrote this dream just as a Red Herring to screw with his fans.........huh?

[-Ghost-]

I think that Lord Manderly wanted to do that because of a situation like what happened with Roose Bolton's bastard Ramsay. It was meant more to protect her lands from being taken.

I'm pretty sure that Tywin does say the gods are punishing him with Tyrion. Either way, he at least treats him so horribly its obvious he feels that way about Tyrion. And he is a hypocrite about having whores and Tyrion not taking things seriously. Tyrion organized the defense of Kings Landing and killed thousands of Stannis' men before they even reached shore, and Tywin himself has whores because he was banging Shae when Tyrion killed him. So Tywin was a great battle commander, a great warden of the west and great with gold, but the private Tywin when he is with his family, is NOT that great.

It doesn't really matter why Manderly wanted to marry her, it more than likely was for the land, they are still cousins. He even offers his son Wendel, if she would prefer someone younger. Maester Luwen and Ser Rodrick and Bran still consider it as an option. If it was a crazy idea that only Targaryens and Lannisters do, it wouldn't even be considered. Marrying cousins is a normal thing in Westeros.

This is what Tywin says during that scene.

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

I'm not saying Tywin is a good person. After Tywins mother died, his father got himself a new girl and started letting her come to his meetings and wear his wife's jewels and stuff. People began saying that she was actually in charge and that House Lannister was becoming weak. The Reyne's and Tarbeck's decided to rebell and Tywin took control and Rains of Castamere'd them. He did some dirty shit to keep his family in power and feared. Then along comes Tyrion, the dwarf son of the mighty Tywin Lannister. He spends his life banging whores and bringing shame to the Lannister name just like what happened before. He also blames him for taking away the woman he loved. That's why Tywin hates Tyrion. My thoughts anyway...

[billy g.]

We don't know what was going on with Tywin and Joanna (and maybe Aerys) 9 months before Tyrion was born... BUT I just think it is terrible that Tywin blames Tyrion (even now is bad, but hating him as a newborn infant?) for Joanna's death.

Because of that, I just can't wait for his final scene with Tyrion in season 4. :devil:

[mattah84]

It doesn't really matter why Manderly wanted to marry her, it more than likely was for the land, they are still cousins. He even offers his son Wendel, if she would prefer someone younger. Maester Luwen and Ser Rodrick and Bran still consider it as an option. If it was a crazy idea that only Targaryens and Lannisters do, it wouldn't even be considered. Marrying cousins is a normal thing in Westeros.

This is what Tywin says during that scene.

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

I'm not saying Tywin is a good person. After Tywins mother died, his father got himself a new girl and started letting her come to his meetings and wear his wife's jewels and stuff. People began saying that she was actually in charge and that House Lannister was becoming weak. The Reyne's and Tarbeck's decided to rebell and Tywin took control and Rains of Castamere'd them. He did some dirty shit to keep his family in power and feared. Then along comes Tyrion, the dwarf son of the mighty Tywin Lannister. He spends his life banging whores and bringing shame to the Lannister name just like what happened before. He also blames him for taking away the woman he loved. That's why Tywin hates Tyrion. My thoughts anyway...

With regards to Lady Hornwood and Manderly, wasn't that around the time she wrote to Ramsay or Roose because men were being massed at the Dreadfort. And she was basically told to piss off? Again, I could be wrong, but it seems like the consideration of the marriage was because of how dire her situation appeared. And also, at this point in time they didn't really know it was Ironborn invading the North yet. For all they knew, it could of been Ramsay, and they wanted to protect all of their lands.

Tyrion couldn't of even brought close to as much shame to House Lannister as Tywin's dad Tytos. Tyrion was not in charge of Casterly Rock and he didn't lose all of the Lannister money. So the level of shame brought on the family from Tyrion being a Dwarf, isn't exactly equivalent to how Tytos Lannister almost ruined their house and lost their money.

Also:

"To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

That quote from Tywin sounds a little bit like he feels the Gods are punishing him with Tyrion......and when you take into account that a few sentences before he says that he can't prove Tyrion is not his, I think it is reasonable to think Tywin felt Tyrion might not be his kid, but he can't really prove it.