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greensleeves

[No Spoilers] Is the third season now 2-0 on the Bechdel Test?

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Because obviously a mother talking about her son is a sign of the oppressive patriarchy, rather than her love for her children :P

:bowdown: . I love this comment :)

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Yes but the criteria is that men aren't mentioned full stop.

Not necessary, opinions differ on this, I think just a mention is OK, as long as it's the central object of the conversation, they but in both cases here that was the case.

Most films/TV also fail a male Bechdel test.

You are way off.

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It's far from pointless. Of course it's not the type of test which decides on its own whether a movie is certainly sexist or not, but it's a useful tool to show how rare it is that women are given any other topics to discuss than men and how many movies don't even have 2 named women in them.

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It's far from pointless. Of course it's not the type of test which decides on its own whether a movie is certainly sexist or not, but it's a useful tool to show how rare it is that women are given any other topics to discuss than men and how many movies don't even have 2 named women in them.

I am sorry, but I have just seen the list of movies that actually passed. And I disagree completely with remark that movies are too man-concentrated and sexist towards women. For me, Galadriel in LOTR/Hobbit is the proof that woman can have strength equal, or even higher than any man in her world. Also, there are so many beautifully written female characters that show their strength and power in men`s world. I am sorry, but when you think of all great actresses of this time, and their roles - Meryl Streep and Cate Blanchett, as honorable mentions, you`ll see that society isn`t that closeted as we think. And that comes from man who lived in very closeted society and now works in another.

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It's far from pointless. Of course it's not the type of test which decides on its own whether a movie is certainly sexist or not, but it's a useful tool to show how rare it is that women are given any other topics to discuss than men and how many movies don't even have 2 named women in them.

Imo it's really little more than a curiosity. As I've said up thread conversations involving men can be empowering to women whilst conversations without men can be demeaning. Each conversation should be taken on an individual basis. Now often films which do portray women well also pass the bechdel test, but because it's such an imprecise measure it's pretty pointless in comparison to other indicators.

And while there's still a lot of sexism in the film and TV industry keep in mind that the majority of film and TV history is skewed towards a time when sexism was very much alive and kicking and accepted. So compiling a list of films and saying which pass and which don't is even more meaningless as a measure of sexism in the current film industry unless you take that into account.

And of course in period pieces like this, it's perfectly justified that men have a more dominant role in the plot because in such a society as Westeros it's more difficult for women to have an impact. So male characters are more likely to be talked about.

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As a man who has had no idea that this test even existed, I find it fascinating that a test on feminism is basically completely centred on a measurement of the male element. You would imagine that a scene or story would be judged within its own context, but apparently the measure of feminism can only be measured by the presence or not of a man. Essentially we are told that even the measurement of female worth is reliant on the element of the male to be meaningful, as if women cannot measure their own 'feminism' without a reference to the 'male' Its fascinating, you are judging a scene as feminist if it has an absence of a male element, and in so doing, are actually using the male in your own real life activity of measurement. Do women really value the worth of their interactions by whether or not men are being referenced in them?

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As a man who has had no idea that this test even existed, I find it fascinating that a test on feminism is basically completely centred on a measurement of the male element. You would imagine that a scene or story would be judged within its own context, but apparently the measure of feminism can only be measured by the presence or not of a man. Do women really value the worth of their interactions by whether or not men are being referenced in them?

Took the words out of my mouth. Let's look at the three scenes from Episode 2 at face value as an example:

1. Sansa talks about how a man has been torturing her.

2. Meera talks about how she protects people, in this case two boys.

3. Catelyn talks about loving her children.

(4. Shae warns Sansa about Littlefinger)

In all three instances, they are talking about men, yet in all three instances they are showing courage, strength and compassion, alongside flaws in the latters case. If the only thing that matters to this test is whether a man is mentioned, then it completely misses the point of feminism in the first place.

Edit: Added a fourth, less relevant example.

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The problem with the test is that, ultimately, it fails to provide the essential context in regards to any particular work.

Plus some people implement it too strictly, as evidenced by some comments on this page:

http://bechdeltest.com/view/3817/zero_dark_thirty/

For Zero Dark Thirty, considering a conversation between two women about Osama bin Laden as failing the test (plus one person suggesting that a work where there is ANY conversation between two women about a man in a romantic context as automatically failing).

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I am sorry, but I have just seen the list of movies that actually passed. And I disagree completely with remark that movies are too man-concentrated and sexist towards women.

Then you'd be very wrong. The movie industry is openly sexist and it's well known they target almost all of their movies primarily towards men. And how many female directors get sufficient funding? Very few. There are barely any big budget movies with a central female character and/or two well developed female female characters with depth.

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It's not supposed to be a scientific measure of the quality of a movie, it's only used to show how lopsided the movie world is. You can compare it to the Big Mac Index for example, It serves as a quickly explained illustration to the "unitianate into the topic of gener inequality". I'm sure there exist better measurements, but do we really need this? If you see with a very rudimentary 5-meter scale that a house is askew, do you need a centimeter one? Lastly, the bars of the Bechdel test are set to low because the house is askew!

I'd say the second episode passes the test, but just. But it's a good explanation why the test is lacking. Was Catelyn's monologue to Talisa about Jon Snow? No, it just took the story of a baby (who could have been female just as well) and a mother to create characterization. Sansa's and the Tyrell's scene on the other hand revolved very much around men, but on the other hand, it was a direct discussion of gender inequality and "how dumb these men are". So while the scene doens't pass the Bechdel test, it does discuss the topics the Bechdel tests wants to adress. The Meera and Osha discussion is something inbetween. First, it's a rather short scene (two lines or so?), Secondly, it's about men, but those men are not grown ups, but kids. Lastly, it's an introductory scene. All in all, I'm not sure how to classify it...

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Then you'd be very wrong. The movie industry is openly sexist and it's well known they target almost all of their movies primarily towards men. And how many female directors get sufficient funding? Very few. There are barely any big budget movies with a central female character and/or two well developed female female characters with depth.

Don`t forget what is key word in movie industry. It`s all about money. So fantasy genre, comic books adaptations are always going to have primate over any other genre. And that`s mainly about men. But, we have evolved. And there`s no doubt in that. The time has passed when only women were sexual objects on the screen. We have entire generations of so-called actors who are perceived as good-looking men. The pressure on women has also translated to men - all must look perfect. And for the first time, if we want to see some depth in acting and preformance, actresses are what we search for.

As for developed female charcters, let`s just say we disagree. Cate Blanchett has done tons of movies portraying strong women, just like Meryl Streep, Judi Dench, Hellen Mirren, Maggie Smith and so on... Of course, their roles are not commonly known as Twilight/50 shades/commic book adaptations - type of roles. Because for every great female character, you`ll have some hot women ready to sleep with today`s hero. It`s not about sexism, it`s about superficiality and shallowness of industry.

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Yes. And then followed by deep analysis of why this test falls on deaf ears, possibly with the answer being sexism

So you're saying anyone who doesn't agree with the test is sexist?

I'm not trying to antagonise by the way, I honestly wasn't sure what your view was.

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I don't think most people actually view the Bechdel Test as an actual "test." It is a good way of opening the conversation about gender representation. It's because of this test that we are having the discussion that "well, Sansa's conversation with the Queen of Thorns doesn't pass the test, but it still presents very strong female characters taking a very significant part of the plot." Also, it can direct you to the thought "that technically passes/fails the Bechdel test, but here's why it's still negative/positive." I don't think anybody here is suggesting the show be completely condemned/praised because of failure/passing of the test.

And really, thinking about whether something passes/fails the test spread out over time is a great way to expose sexism in the entertainment industry.

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I don't think most people actually view the Bechdel Test as an actual "test." It is a good way of opening the conversation about gender representation. It's because of this test that we are having the discussion that "well, Sansa's conversation with the Queen of Thorns doesn't pass the test, but it still presents very strong female characters taking a very significant part of the plot." Also, it can direct you to the thought "that technically passes/fails the Bechdel test, but here's why it's still negative/positive." I don't think anybody here is suggesting the show be completely condemned/praised because of failure/passing of the test.

And really, thinking about whether something passes/fails the test spread out over time is a great way to expose sexism in the entertainment industry.

See, the problem is that two women talking about something other than men really isn't all that interesting. I think you may need to take that into effect in your calculus.

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See, the problem is that two women talking about something other than men really isn't all that interesting. I think you may need to take that into effect in your calculus.

E-excuse me?

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One of the the obvious things injected into this season so far is the increased feminist overtones. Anyone whining about lack of gender equality on this show is grasping at straws. George's books are quite pro-woman, but this show goes even further to push that agenda, so much that it is becoming heavy handed. So much so that they have done great disservices to characters like Brienne, Shae, Cat, Jeyne ("Talisa" ugh), and others in trying to weed out negative traits (Brienne's innocence, Shae being largely an empty whore, Cat being cruel to Jon and generally more assertive, and of course Talisa as the back-talking nurse in the very first scene she interacts with a King (Robb) and a god damn high lord (Roose Bolton). Call them simple deviations if you want, but there is a clear pattern and ironically it is making these characters less complex and realistic.

As for this blatantly flawed test, I suggest you go back to some Anita Sarkeesian videos where you can spout your pseudo-academic trash.

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See, the problem is that two women talking about something other than men really isn't all that interesting. I think you may need to take that into effect in your calculus.

...what? That is exactly the type of sexism the Bechdel test helps detect! If we can be entertained by watching two men talk about non-women, then why on earth should it be any different than watching two women talk about the same topic?

Again, nobody saying there is anything wrong with women talking about men. Men are parts of a plot, as are other women (hopefully). But if the only thing ever talked about is men, then that's not entirely representative of what women actually do.

Also, there is a distinction being made and discussed here about a conversation being about a man, and a conversation including a man. For example, were Sansa, Margery, and Ollenna actually talking "about" a man, or were they talking about Margery's safety? There are no clean cut answers here (trust me, this isn't calculus. that's my entire point). It's a conversation which can be beneficial to have.

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Ok,, you're excused.

Ah, no defense for your sexist remark so you fall back on snide comments? That old chestnut eh?

Seriously, saying that men is the only interesting topic women can talk about is incredibly sexist and backwards regardless of whether or not you think that the bechdel test is useful or not.

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So you're saying anyone who doesn't agree with the test is sexist?

I'm not trying to antagonise by the way, I honestly wasn't sure what your view was.

No. I was trying to be funny lol. I should have added a smiley. While possibly not the intent, this "test" looks like data mining. Where is the context?

For examples, I watch Homeland and Shameless, two shows with strong female leads. In Homeland, the main character might be talking to another female but about a terrorist that is a man. Or in Shameless the main character might be talking to another female about her degenerate father. Sexism because they weren't talking about something else? What about when two men are talking about a women, is that counted?

I admit to being blind to these things. Sometimes you don't see something if you aren't actively looking for it

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