Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

AliKat

(Book Spoiler) Lord Karstark's remark about Talisa/Robb

Recommended Posts

Even if Robb was a virgin by the time he left Winterfell, after months on the campaign, putting his life at risk, all the pressure on him, dealing with his father's imprisonment and death, surrounded by the likes of Theon, Greatjon and later Edmure, and the young men of his personal guard, I doubt he remained a virgin until he met Jeyne.

The point is, we never got a hint of it in the text.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. I have a feeling they re-wrote it in order to streamline the plot, minimize exposition, keep Robb and Cat in the same place, as well as sparing them the cost of another castle location, and the cost of casting the Westerlings, or at very least the mother.

I have no doubt those things were considered as well. You'll notice I said "part of." Since neither of us were there when they planned everything we can only speculate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think they are saying Catelyn is responsible for everything (even though at the moment she is feeling that way due to her grief), and the line Karstark has that this thread is about very heavily implied that Robb made a huge mistake by marrying Talisa. In fact, it's not really an implication, it's fairly straightforward.

Also Robb in the books did the same thing, only he made excuses for himself. And I don't think Robb in the show comes off as a "massive douche" either.

He comes off as a clueless douche. Marching around doing nothing but laying siege to empty castles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not go far as to say he was a virgin. They specifically say that about Jon because he had that issue about being a bastard and all and not knowing his mother..... and that Jon did not go whoring with his peers even though he is of age. The book might not say it but his peers are Robb and Theon. It might contribute to the manner in which Theon chastises Jon .... I think it more likely that Robb is in love the first time and does not want to treat Jeyne as a whore or mistress because at least in the book she is from a good house. Still don't understand the Talisa thing since she is of a lesser house. The producers seem to want to suggest in some way that Robb is tempted by exotic woman. I think that was a last minute change just to fix consistencies in the dialog between Rob and Cat that won't be reconciled even though the role seems to be cast as Jayne but morphed

The whole issue is that Robb is thrust into this situation too inexperienced, they had to make the alliance for the crossing, and it is a general bummer to have an arranged marriage with a Frey that is described as not as ugly as the others. Robb's parents are arranged, when not in love. To be King is to sacrifice in this manner. Cat spells it out for Robb... he can't do it and suffers the consequences

Robb could have picked any frey, and by all accounts roslyn is a good looking lady.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's absolutely true. Honor is no excuse for stupidity.

GRRM intentionally put Robb in the same dilemna that Ned was in, trying to find the honorable way out of an impossible situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He comes off as a clueless douche. Marching around doing nothing but laying siege to empty castles

He comes off like that to you. To me he comes off as a stubborn but determined young man thrust into a terrible situation and terribly frustrated, trying to remain mature and regal while struggling with the reality that he's never going to get what he wants. So I suppose it's a matter of perspective but I would think most non readers don't view him as a clueless douche, considering all of my non reader friends think he's great but is finding himself in bad situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He comes off like that to you. To me he comes off as a stubborn but determined young man thrust into a terrible situation and terribly frustrated, trying to remain mature and regal while struggling with the reality that he's never going to get what he wants. So I suppose it's a matter of perspective but I would think most non readers don't view him as a clueless douche, considering all of my non reader friends think he's great but is finding himself in bad situations.

He's not looking like a great leader/warrior that people would follow. That's the deviation from the books that I'm not fond of.

Wow, struggling with the reality that he's never gonna get what he wants... tough struggle. Sounds like a terribly unique problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who has read the books knows that Robb marrying Talisa/Jeyne is the beginning of the end but in season 2 they got married secretly. They haven't made a big deal about her being introduced to his men or anything. And so far they haven't shown him losing the Freys - although its implied he would. So my question is, why wouldn't they show or make a reference to him losing the Freys BEFORE Lord Karstark makes the comment that she's the reasons they're losing the war. Because without Robb losing the Freys, she's technically not a problem.

I think there are some teleplay continuity errors this season I don't remember us having before.

The NW Lord Commander speaking dialog to Sam that's in the book but not set up on the screen.

Yours is another one, don't know if it's in the book but it's plot material referred to that is not set up.

It's like where's the continuity editor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the books he was conflicted by two dishonorable choices. In the show he basically went screw what this means for my army, captive sisters, family etc I like this girl and I'll drop my allies to do so. They have really played down that angle in the show, but his loss of the Freys and what his marriage meant has to be tackled at somepoint (unless they make Edmure do something so all the blame falls on him). If they did highlight Robb did as he pleased then he would come across as a massive douche.

I agree that the show has made him more douchey than the books, in that regard. I explained to my non-reader friend why Robb marries "Talisa" in the books, and he said "Ohhh that makes so much more sense than what the show is doing. I don't dislike him for marrying her now." I definitely think the show Robb looks like a tool compared to book Robb, who is more like a boy trying to do right by everyone which results in him getting in a really precarious situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, to answer the OP, the concern about the Frey's didn't occur in the books full force until Riverrun, as other posters have said. Moreover, the idea of having Edmure as a "consolation prize" to Lord Frey wouldn't make sense until the show has introduced Edmure. As it appears this is happening in E03, I suspect the Frey discussion will begin either E03 or E04.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there are some teleplay continuity errors this season I don't remember us having before.

The NW Lord Commander speaking dialog to Sam that's in the book but not set up on the screen.

Yours is another one, don't know if it's in the book but it's plot material referred to that is not set up.

It's like where's the continuity editor?

Well there's not a continuity error regarding Talisa, because Karstark is talking about FUTURE consequences because of Robb's marriage to her, not that they are seeing the consequences play out.

What's Mormont's dialogue that you're referring to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it's one of the big ironies of the book. Roslyn/Robb would have been a fine match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the show is delaying making a direct mention of the Freys right now because if they did so in episode 3, that would be 7 weeks of "the Freys are angry, we need to make amends with the Freys" it would drag it out too much. Most people are like "who the F are the Freys?" so a name drop wont really help matters at this stage. they need to be mentioned when they are the focus of the story again later on.

they seem to be going about it methodically in stages. My guess is Walder Frey doesn't know yet, and they will made a big deal of him finding out at a more appropriate moment in the story. I think they want to show a steady decline in Robb's fortunes, and make people realise slowly but surely that Robb can't win.

Here is how I see it playing out.

1) Introduce the Tullys,

2) huge focus on the Karstark beheading. The rights and wrongs, the moral ambiguity etc etc

3) The Karstarks abandon him.

4) Frey "finds out" about Talisa (Dum Dum Duuum!) and the Frey's abandon him. Double-whammy

5) Robb realises he can't win and decides (sorry fans!) to turn around and make for home.

6) Damn though!, Robb realises to do this, he needs to cross the bridge again (oh the irony!) in order to get home, and furthermore, what about his mothers family? What about this Edmure and Blackfish we have been introduced to? Are they going to be abandoned?

7) Time to worry about making amends with the Freys.

Its a step by step thing when you have a few minutes per episode. We aren't going to see the Freys again for a while yet, and yet more name dropping them so early in the season when other people are being introduced is juggling too many balls at once. The focus is on the Tullys, then the Karstarks, then the Freys it seems to me. Lord Walder will get mentioned when it's time to worry about Lord Walder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×