Dany Changes

[Parwan]

And so does she. She thinks of herself as liberator, and just like Stannis, Joffrey and Aegon, she thinks she is the real deal and others are thievs who want to claim what`s rightfully hers. From Jorah`s line in GOT to her last chapter in DWD, she isn`t much changed in regard of understanding that blood doesn`t make you worthy of a throne. That it isn`t enough to have dragon blood to rule. One day she will have to `stipulate` to the level of the others and understand that after her family betrayed Westeros and its people, that blood of hers serves her nothing.

Common folk doesn`t care about who`s at the throne. Dragon, wolf, stag or lion, as long as there are peace and prosperity, why would theu care who sits on Iron Throne or who is the `rightful King`. A boot is a boot, and it doesn`t changes the fact what it is no matter whether dragon, lion, stag or wolf wears it.

I'll definitely go along with the "And so does she" part." I don't want to imply in any way that Dany's thinking on matters of succession and true rule are above average for anyone in the seven kingdoms. I do not see her as clearly below average on this topic, certainly not for the nobility. Ned Stark is usually seen as one of the good guys; I agree with this assessment. If it came down to a choice, I'd pick him as my ruler over most main characters in the story. However, he suffers from the same "there's only one true way" myopia as just about everyone else who has power in Westeros. Stannis is the only legitimate heir, and we have to put him on the throne. It does not matter that the realm will bleed because of this.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Being annoying is not the same thing as failing to change her mind. I do not care for the opinions expressed by a number of characters in this story, including some who I think are sincere in their beliefs.

Being ignorant and arrogant which she proves that she is shows that she can't and more importantly isn't willing to change her mind. She close her eyes and her ears to the truth so she doesn't hear the truth. So tell me, how this is a proof that she changes?

[Parwan]

Being ignorant and arrogant which she proves that she is shows that she can't and more importantly isn't willing to change her mind. She close her eyes and her ears to the truth so she doesn't hear the truth. So tell me, how this is a proof that she changes?

See my next two posts.

[Parwan]

I hold out quite a bit of hope for Dany. That's not to say she should ascend to the throne. There are other possibilities. She might, for example, fit into the "dies fighting in a good cause" category. She has done bad stuff; she has done good stuff. The good might come to dominate in the end.

Dany's conversations with Barristan about Westeros take a number of twists and turns. In Astapor, when the "squire" is still known as "Arstan Whitebeard," the two are discussing the advisability of buying the unsullied. Whitebeard says that Rhaegar is remembered with love. Daenerys asks, "And my father?"

The old man hesitated before saying, "King Aerys is also remembered. He gave the

realm many years of peace. Your Grace, you have no need of slaves. Maister Illyrio

can keep you safe…"

This isn't a case of the dragon queen's refusal to face the truth. She asks a simple question. It is her adviser who waffles, then changes the subject. (Okay, he goes back to the original theme. The distinction is not terribly important.) George Martin often does a quick change at critical times. He brings us right up to a vital point, then lets one character move the conversation to another topic, or he brings a third character in to interrupt things.

The back-and-forth between Daenerys and her knight on matters relevant to this thread continues. In no case does Dany perform as the harshest criticism on this site states--just sticking her fingers in her ears and saying, "la, la, la, la, I can't hear you." Obviously, she doesn't do this literally; she doesn't do it figuratively either. Another matter concerns Ser Barriston's character. Some criticisms of Dany take the form of "She won't even listen to Selmy." It seems to me that most of the force of this criticism is based on the fact that Selmy is one of the good guys. However, this very fact reduces the power of the criticism. The knight is devoted to the queen, and he stays devoted to her after several exchanges concerning family and Westerosi history. He definitely sees a lot of virtue in her; he doesn't believe that she is a hopeless case when it comes to things like her attitude toward the Starks.

[Parwan]

There is the business of "the taint." During the procedure where Dany is considering dismissing Barristan and Jorah from her service (ASoS), the former says, "Your father is called 'the Mad King' in Westeros." Dany replies that she knows this from Viserys. It was a lie told by the Usurper and his dogs. Selmy says that the queen should not ask for the truth and then close her ears to it. The truth is that mental problems occur in the Targaryen line. One saying is that when a Targayen is born, the gods flip a coin. Dany does not like this business. "So I am a coin in the hands of some god, is that what you are saying, ser?" The old knight replies that she is the trueborn heir of Westeros.

Queen Daenerys goes from declaring the madness assertion a lie, to generally accepting it. She even manages some humor. In her interview of Barristan Selmy, she asks him if he would be willing to stay with her as a cook. Selmy describes the sort of things he prepares over campfires. She says, "I'd have to her mad to eat such fare." The point stays with her; it's not just a joke. At the end of the "interview" chapter, she asks her council, "Am I a dragon, or a harpy?" And she thinks, "Am I mad? Do I have the taint?"

Then in ADwD, after a nighttime visit from Quaithe, the dragon queen again worries about going nuts. Of course, this is natural. No one else hears or sees Quaithe. It isn't an inevitable conclusion on her part though. Quaithe is a woman of power, and the visions in the House of the Undying weren't due to insanity. Furthermore, as Daenerys considers her situation, she has this thought: "She was the blood of the dragon, but Ser Barristan had warned her that in that blood there was a taint."

These are not the words of a young woman who insists all the anti-Targ opinions are lies. She doesn't think the Lord Commander is a liar. She takes the issue of madness seriously. She has changed her mind about it.

A meaningful sequence of events develops. Dany's increasingly pointed inquiries are part of it. In ASoS, after she has retained Selmy, she asks him "Was my father truly mad?" Selmy replies that Aerys's lapses grew more serious with advancing age. Dany asks, "Do I want to hear this now?" Selmy agrees that now is perhaps not the time. This is not a obstinate refusal to face facts. Dany has just learned about the horror that is descending upon Astapor, and she has dismissed a formerly trusted knight (Jorah). I don't think it's unreasonable for her to decide she doesn't want to hear more bad news at this point. Furthermore, her last statement in the conversation is, "One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?" Can the strong implication of that last question be denied? I don't see how. That is a true transformation. The queen has gone from thinking only good about her father to clearly implying that there was a lot wrong with him.

And the request to "tell me all" is not a hollow one. In the wedding chapter of ADwD, Dany asks Selmy who her parents might have married had they married for love. Ser Barristan starts in on the story, but he is embarrassed by some of the details. Dany says, "I want to know…I want to know everything about him. The good and…the rest." This is the continuation of the sequence. She has said that Selmy should give her the full truth one day, and it does seem that "one day" has arrived. The knight continues rather hesitantly, then--

"Gracious queen, well met!" Another procession had come up beside her own, and

Hizdahr zo Loraq was smiling at her from his own sedan chair.

The queen does not shut her adviser down. Far from it. GRRM just does another of his quick changes. Blame the writer if you want to. The fault does not lie with Daenerys Stormborn. Her final statement is "I want to know everything about him..." I believe that is the last statement she makes about Aerys in ADwD. It is quite fair to judge her development up to that point. After this, both she and the head of her Queensguard are involved in very pressing matters.They don't take time out to further discuss Targaryen history. Dany started out in ASoS by asking Ser Barristan leading questions about her father: "Did you find him good and gentle?" She ends in ADwD by admitting there were problems and asking for a full discussion.

[Independent George]

It's GRRM's fault. He got mired in his Meereenese knot, and in his attempts to untangle it, he inadvertantly arrested Dany's character development to the point where all her decisions end up looking much worse in analysis.

The problem comes down to GRRM not being ready to have Dany head to Westeros, or to face the truth about her family and Robert's Rebellion. Learning the truth about Aerys' and the 'Usurper' would be a major character-defining moment for her, but the story wasn't ready for that development; all the pieces weren't yet in play. He needed to move Tyrion, Euron, Quentyn, and Connington across the board before he was ready for the reveal. So, GRRM basically arrested her character's progress without thinking through the implications this had on her.

Between the end of SOS, and her departure from Meereen, probably about 6 months has elapsed. It's always hard to figure out timelines, but we know there was at least 90 days of truce with the Sons of the Harpy, and time enough to exhcange envoys with the Lhazareen, Qarth, and Volantis. It's long enough for word to reach Pentos for some time before Tyrion makes his long Trek all the way to Slaver's Bay. That implies a minimum of 5 months, and an upper range of probably 10 months.

So during those long months, two brief, interrupted queries to Barristan are the only times she showed any interest in her family, Westeros, or Robert's Rebellion? And each time, she was distracted by shiny objects before losing interest entirely? Every doubt she harbors is a personal one; she never once confronts the hard questions about what her family legacy truly is, even though it's completely relevant to the task at hand.

Thus, she keeps going on about the 'Blood of the Dragon' to justify smashing the slave trade, without ever stopping to consider that the Valyrians were the worst slavers in history (something she would have known from her years living in Braavos), or that they destroyed almost every other industry in Meereen except slaving (which was pointed out to her directly).

She condemns the malicious cruelty of the Meereenese, but never once wonders whether someone known as 'the Mad King' might have possibly at one point done something that maybe was seen as potentially malicious and cruel? She knows she will need armies to win in a war-torn Westeros, but never once wonders how the Usurper was able to gather enough support and marshall enough forces to overthrow an established monarchy? She never once wonders whether her right to rule Westeros would be questioned and contested at least as much as it currently is in Meereen? She never connects her most trusted advisor's obvious admiration for Ned with the fact that the Usurper was evidently able to quickly unite an entire continent far easier than she could rule a single city?

Again - all of this strikes me as the unintended consequence of holding Dany in place in Meereen while the pieces moved towards her. I think she was supposed to start facing all that, and undergo the implied character development - the 'flexibility' mentioned by the OP - but never did, because the plot wouldn't allow it.

[Cas Stark]

I don't know what GRRM is doing with Dany's character or what he thinks he's doing or what effect he intended with her arc so far.

The effect it has had on me is that I now find her character unsympathetic, she is tempermental, prone to impulsive/angry decisions that as Queen result in the torture and death of many people, sulky, poor at governance, uninterested in educating herself about anything, I don't see anything there that is particularly attractive beyond that some of her impulses are compasionate, sometimes, for a while, until she gets mad again.

The best I can hope for in terms of her further actions is that she realizes she is unfit to rule and is only fit to conquer with fire and blood and brings her dragons into the fight against the others, and ends up either dead or back in essos at a house with a red door.

[danm_999]

It's GRRM's fault. He got mired in his Meereenese knot, and in his attempts to untangle it, he inadvertantly arrested Dany's character development to the point where all her decisions end up looking much worse in analysis.

The problem comes down to GRRM not being ready to have Dany head to Westeros, or to face the truth about her family and Robert's Rebellion. Learning the truth about Aerys' and the 'Usurper' would be a major character-defining moment for her, but the story wasn't ready for that development; all the pieces weren't yet in play. He needed to move Tyrion, Euron, Quentyn, and Connington across the board before he was ready for the reveal. So, GRRM basically arrested her character's progress without thinking through the implications this had on her.

Between the end of SOS, and her departure from Meereen, probably about 6 months has elapsed. It's always hard to figure out timelines, but we know there was at least 90 days of truce with the Sons of the Harpy, and time enough to exhcange envoys with the Lhazareen, Qarth, and Volantis. It's long enough for word to reach Pentos for some time before Tyrion makes his long Trek all the way to Slaver's Bay. That implies a minimum of 5 months, and an upper range of probably 10 months.

So during those long months, two brief, interrupted queries to Barristan are the only times she showed any interest in her family, Westeros, or Robert's Rebellion? And each time, she was distracted by shiny objects before losing interest entirely? Every doubt she harbors is a personal one; she never once confronts the hard questions about what her family legacy truly is, even though it's completely relevant to the task at hand.

Thus, she keeps going on about the 'Blood of the Dragon' to justify smashing the slave trade, without ever stopping to consider that the Valyrians were the worst slavers in history (something she would have known from her years living in Braavos), or that they destroyed almost every other industry in Meereen except slaving (which was pointed out to her directly).

She condemns the malicious cruelty of the Meereenese, but never once wonders whether someone known as 'the Mad King' might have possibly at one point done something that maybe was seen as potentially malicious and cruel? She knows she will need armies to win in a war-torn Westeros, but never once wonders how the Usurper was able to gather enough support and marshall enough forces to overthrow an established monarchy? She never once wonders whether her right to rule Westeros would be questioned and contested at least as much as it currently is in Meereen? She never connects her most trusted advisor's obvious admiration for Ned with the fact that the Usurper was evidently able to quickly unite an entire continent far easier than she could rule a single city?

Again - all of this strikes me as the unintended consequence of holding Dany in place in Meereen while the pieces moved towards her. I think she was supposed to start facing all that, and undergo the implied character development - the 'flexibility' mentioned by the OP - but never did, because the plot wouldn't allow it.

Such a good post that penetrates to the core of the problems with Daenerys character. To be a good person, it takes more than noble intentions. It takes the ability to think critically, to be able to honestly self reflect, and to have a degree of honesty and/or sympathy with those you're dealing with.

[SeanF]

It's GRRM's fault. He got mired in his Meereenese knot, and in his attempts to untangle it, he inadvertantly arrested Dany's character development to the point where all her decisions end up looking much worse in analysis.

The problem comes down to GRRM not being ready to have Dany head to Westeros, or to face the truth about her family and Robert's Rebellion. Learning the truth about Aerys' and the 'Usurper' would be a major character-defining moment for her, but the story wasn't ready for that development; all the pieces weren't yet in play. He needed to move Tyrion, Euron, Quentyn, and Connington across the board before he was ready for the reveal. So, GRRM basically arrested her character's progress without thinking through the implications this had on her.

That may be so, although a good deal of what happens to her in ADWD is pre-figured in ASOS. In her final chapter in ASOS, we learn that Cleon has seized power in Astapor, reinstituted slavery, and that much of the population there is starving. It only gets worse in ADWD, and we can see that Dany bears a lot the responsibility for turning Astapor into hell on earth. But, it was easy to predict, in ASOS, that Astapor would become hell on earth, once she massacred much of the free adult male population, and then marched away from the place.

Likewise, it's no surprise in ADWD that the Yunkai consider her to be duplicitous, because she was duplicitous in her dealings with them in ASOS, threatening their ambassador, and attacking them during a truce.

And, it's no surprise that she faces enmity in Mereen, given that we learned that when the city was sacked, some streets were piled high with corpses, and then she told the Great Masters to hand over 163 people (who might or might not be guilty) for crucifixion. She demonstrated that she got upset about the death of children (something they'll use against her in ADWD) and that she's capricious in the way she administers justice.

[Cas Stark]

Not to mention that she basically stole the unsullied army since she never had any intention of giving up Drogon to the slavers.....

[SeanF]

Not to mention that she basically stole the unsullied army since she never had any intention of giving up Drogon to the slavers.....

I can't recall that ever being cited against her by her enemies, however, I don't hold it against her, although I certainly do regard an order to "slay every man wearing a tokar" to be pretty atrocious. On another thread, a poster compared it to Pol Pot's order to kill every man who wore spectacles, which I think is apt.

[Cas Stark]

I can't recall that ever being cited against her by her enemies, however, I don't hold it against her, although I certainly do regard an order to "slay every man wearing a tokar" to be pretty atrocious. On another thread, a poster compared it to Pol Pot's order to kill every man who wore spectacles, which I think is apt.

I would think twice about doing a business deal with her, LOL.

I don't know what GRRM expects the audience to think about that order..are we supposed to cheer [like many have, because they're mostly slavers] or be appalled at the generalization she makes which amounts to a form of genocide, which is more how I feel about it, the assumption that every single person wearing a tokar is deserving of death.

There is a lot in the series about the corrosive effect of revenge, I was especially struck by how the Karstark men turn feral after they leave Robb's army and start raping and committing atrocities....but her order isn't really even about revenge here, the slavers, while assholes, did her no personal wrong beyond trash talking her.

[SeanF]

I would think twice about doing a business deal with her, LOL.

I don't know what GRRM expects the audience to think about that order..are we supposed to cheer [like many have, because they're mostly slavers] or be appalled at the generalization she makes which amounts to a form of genocide, which is more how I feel about it, the assumption that every single person wearing a tokar is deserving of death.

There is a lot in the series about the corrosive effect of revenge, I was especially struck by how the Karstark men turn feral after they leave Robb's army and start raping and committing atrocities....but her order isn't really even about revenge here, the slavers, while assholes, did her no personal wrong beyond trash talking her.

I've often wondered about that myself. The ending of the "Dracarys" chapter is so triumphant and upbeat, that maybe we are just supposed to view it as righteous justice being meted out. I think we're meant to be very critical of Dany for just marching off and leaving Astapor to go to hell, but are we meant to criticise the massacre per se? I think an order to kill every man wearing a tokar is an order to kill a very high proportion of the adult free male population, but others read it as being much more selective than that, or take the view that adult free males were just a tiny elite.

[Cas Stark]

I've often wondered about that myself. The ending of the "Dracarys" chapter is so triumphant and upbeat, that maybe we are just supposed to view it as righteous justice being meted out. I think we're meant to be very critical of Dany for just marching off and leaving Astapor to go to hell, but are we meant to criticise the massacre per se? I think an order to kill every man wearing a tokar is an order to kill a very high proportion of the adult free male population, but others read it as being much more selective than that, or take the view that adult free males were just a tiny elite.

Yeah, that's why I'm confused by where her story is going. She isn't even sorry for all the crazy things she does, she just loses patience, and goes, oh, okay, torture the daughters, cruxify these guys here, burn this down or whatever...but it feels like I am not supposed to be judging her as harshly as I am...If it had only been the Astapor massacre, I guess I could get over it, slave city, runs on slavery, everyone living there presumably has bought in to some degree with the unsullied deal and all the rest of it, its a WEAK justification for killing an entire class of people...but, she continues to do this same type of random mass violence when she is irritated enough.

But, I still have a sense she's the heroine, I especially get that sense from D & D when they talk about her character in the show. So, again, confused, GRRM is supposed to be an anti war guy, so if she ends up as one of the final winners, it will kind of kill that overall message, the message would then be 'kill your enemies randomly with fire and blood whether they are guilty or not whenever you feel like it'

Her arc just creeps me out now mostly.

[Beorn Snow]

Got to love it when Dany haters think she´s a bad ruler for being inflexible and are at the same time avid Stannis-supporters.

She´s obviously learning fast. She might decide not to become queen even in the end.

[Cas Stark]

Got to love it when Dany haters think she´s a bad ruler for being inflexible and are at the same time avid Stannis-supporters.

She´s obviously learning fast. She might decide not to become queen even in the end.

On the contrary, she isn't inflexible in the least. She changes her mind all the time, she does one thing, loses patience and gives up, does something else. Closes the fighting pits, then, gives in and re opens them. Doesn't want to torture anyone then changes her mind.

I don't see she has learned much about ruling since when left her she's foraging in the mountains with Drogon keeping her alive.

[danm_999]

I've often wondered about that myself. The ending of the "Dracarys" chapter is so triumphant and upbeat, that maybe we are just supposed to view it as righteous justice being meted out. I think we're meant to be very critical of Dany for just marching off and leaving Astapor to go to hell, but are we meant to criticise the massacre per se? I think an order to kill every man wearing a tokar is an order to kill a very high proportion of the adult free male population, but others read it as being much more selective than that, or take the view that adult free males were just a tiny elite.

Personally, the problem I have with it is that it's so freaking arbitrary. Context is a big deal here.

So, given the size of the sale that Daenerys requests, the transaction for her Unsullied is moved from the traditional Plaza of Pride, to the Plaza of Punishment. This is important, because the Plaza of Punishment is the entrance to the city, so we already run into the conceivable problem that people visiting/leaving the city that have absolutely no inclination to trade slaves are present, and will naturally be drawn to the spectacle of 8,000 Unsullied and a feisty dragon (as opposed to the Plaza of Pride; where you can make the reasonable argument the people there are to buy/sell slaves).

Secondly, the tokar is a symbol of the elite, but not necessarily the slaver. After all, it's a garment Daenerys adopts when she's trying to curry favour in Meereen. It's simply what the 'it' people of the region wear when they're trying to show status. Again, it's not inconceivable people that are too rich to work at manual labour, but too poor to own slaves are wearing this garment to ape their social betters.

Which brings us to the nasty question of who the fuck got killed that day, given the transaction took place at the city gates, and a tokar is no guarantee one is a slaver. Now, this is where empathy should come in. In the previous book, Daenerys was being escorted around Qarth in a litter by Dothraki. Plus, she's wearing the goofy half dress which exposes the breast that the Qartheen wear because hey, when in Rome. Flip the situation; suppose some other naive do-gooder staged a massacre in the markets of Qarth whilst Daenerys was passing through in her litter, wearing her half dress.

[Cas Stark]

It also just robs people of any individuality, surely there were a few slave holders in Astapor who may have been reluctant slavers, who couldn't figure a way out of the situation economically, but may have still been good to their slaves, didn't give them up for unsullied training, may even have been trying to figure out a way OUT of the situation. Or not.

But, Dany would never know because she didn't bother to find out, simply decided to kill everyone in a tokar, slaveholder or not, evil incarnate or not, trying to change things for the better or not.

[SeanF]

It's a small detail, but one of Dany's Dothraki is shooting down every man he sees wearing a tokar, whether plain, or fringed with silver or gold. The implication I read into that is that the tokar is the formal dress of anyone who's freeborn, while the elite wear tokars fringed with gold, silver, or precious stones. I understand that the tokar is meant to be similar to the Roman toga, and the toga was the garment worn by all citizens on formal occasions. Knights and Senators were distinguished by having togas fringed with purple, and of far better quality wool.

In all likelihood, most freeborn men outside of the elite own a slave or two, and many of them derive their income from working for slave-traders, or in occupations that sustain the slave trade. But then, that was true of Dany and her followers in the recent past.

[The Drunkard]

Got to love it when Dany haters think she´s a bad ruler for being inflexible and are at the same time avid Stannis-supporters.

She´s obviously learning fast. She might decide not to become queen even in the end.

Stannis being inflexible in all matters is a myth.

He's utterly determined to take the throne. That's about it. His tactics, his religious practises, how he deals with underlings, his strategy, his diplomacy, that's all been changing.