I'm no friend of Balon Greyjoy, but he had no obligation to accept Robb Stark's alliance

[Chaircat Meow]

The ONLY chance the Ironborn have of keeping their independence is if there is a separate faction on Westeros that is also independent from the Iron Throne. It doesn't even really matter if the Greyjoys and that faction are allied, the mere presence of a separate kingdom weakens and potentially threatens the Iron Throne enough to give the Iron Islands a fighting chance at maintaining their independence. Without that other kingdom in Westeros, sooner or later the Iron Islands will inevitably be brought back into the fold.

No, not this again. The south possesses, as far as we know, all the ships, and most of the wealth, so losing the riverlands and the north doesn't really hinder them retaking the iron islands if they are distressed by raids. The only way separate kingdoms helps is 1) if Robb promises to launch an attack every time someone looks to be going to move on Balon (which he didn't promise to do ~ and is really unlikely) or 2) the south wouldn't want to attack the ironborn given they are attacking their other enemies, the northmen. The idea Tywin or Renly would waste vast sums of money and manpower in an assault on Pyke, when the ironborn are doing their work for them , for free, in the north, is a total and complete joke.

[King Aerys the Just]

No, not this again. The south possesses, as far as we know, all the ships, and most of the wealth, so losing the riverlands and the north doesn't really hinder them retaking the iron islands if they are distressed by raids. The only way separate kingdoms helps is 1) if Robb promises to launch an attack every time someone looks to be going to move on Balon (which he didn't promise to do ~ and is really unlikely) or 2) the south wouldn't want to attack the ironborn given they are attacking their other enemies, the northmen. The idea Tywin or Renly would waste vast sums of money and manpower in an assault on Pyke, when the ironborn are doing their work for them , for free, in the north, is a total and complete joke.

Their long term prospects for independence would look bad no matter the choice though. Sooner or later the war would end, likely with the case of the North being defeated and surrendering if the Ironborn decided to side with the Iron Throne. What would Balon, or his successor, do then?

[Wales338]

No, not this again. The south possesses, as far as we know, all the ships, and most of the wealth, so losing the riverlands and the north doesn't really hinder them retaking the iron islands if they are distressed by raids. The only way separate kingdoms helps is 1) if Robb promises to launch an attack every time someone looks to be going to move on Balon (which he didn't promise to do ~ and is really unlikely) or 2) the south wouldn't want to attack the ironborn given they are attacking their other enemies, the northmen. The idea Tywin or Renly would waste vast sums of money and manpower in an assault on Pyke, when the ironborn are doing their work for them , for free, in the north, is a total and complete joke.

You are missing the fundamental point. By having two independent kingdoms they can ally themselves with each other and it also means that the IT would have two other independent kingsdoms to contend with. They would not be able to put all of their resources into attacking one kingdom becasue they would then have to fear attack from the other independent kingdom. Its a pretty basic concept, as as we alread know, the North is already in the process of building a fleet.

[Chaircat Meow]

You are missing the fundamental point. By having two independent kingdoms they can ally themselves with each other and it also means that the IT would have two other independent kingsdoms to contend with. They would not be able to put all of their resources into attacking one kingdom becasue they would then have to fear attack from the other independent kingdom. Its a pretty basic concept, as as we alread know, the North is already in the process of building a fleet.

No, I looked at how that could work in practice in the post you quoted, under 1). You ignored it though. ;)

[Wales338]

No, I looked at how that could work in practice in the post you quoted, under 1). You ignored it though. ;)

Didn't ignore it , its a seperate idea. Yes, Robb could promise to come to the aid of the Iron Isles every time, but thats not the only way they can help. Even if they don't do anything, the threat of what Robb could do also helps. Picture it this way, with two independent kingdoms the IT would never be able to bring their full might to subude the other. This is becasue the other kingdom would alwasy be a knife at their back, so Robb wouldn't even have to literally go to the aid of Balon if he didn't want to because he would always pose a threat preventing them from bringing their full might into affect.

[lostinwesteros]

Wasn't House Greyjoy sworn to House Stark?

[The Frosted King]

No, not this again. The south possesses, as far as we know, all the ships, and most of the wealth, so losing the riverlands and the north doesn't really hinder them retaking the iron islands if they are distressed by raids. The only way separate kingdoms helps is 1) if Robb promises to launch an attack every time someone looks to be going to move on Balon (which he didn't promise to do ~ and is really unlikely) or 2) the south wouldn't want to attack the ironborn given they are attacking their other enemies, the northmen. The idea Tywin or Renly would waste vast sums of money and manpower in an assault on Pyke, when the ironborn are doing their work for them , for free, in the north, is a total and complete joke.

They have to subdue the ironborn, as they're not the northmen.

If the iron throne conceded the kingdom of ice and river to Robb, it'd be relatively alright, aside from the loss of tax revenue from two paramount houses.

Robb wouldn't promote constant skirmishing between the borders of his kingdom and the southern kingdom, and would really just want to be left alone to rebuild, strengthen and reign in peace.

Balon would need to be brought to heel for the simple fact that his cultures philosophy is raid, plunder and slaves.

You can't befriend that culture.

You HAVE to subjugate it.

And Robb would always be the first target, since if he did get a stronghold in the riverlands and unite its armies, his peaceful and entrenched reign might inspire the more stubborn powers to try their hand at independence.

Robb fighting constantly is a bad thing for the Starks, but good for the Lannisters/Baratheons as it would show any other would be kings the price of freedom of the yoke.

Robb successfully breaking free and thriving, is a death sentence for the Iron Throne, and so the power sitting it would never allow it. So they'll fight. And fight, and fight.

And as long as Robb keeps winning key battles, the Iron throne can't take its eyes off him to deal with the Ironborn raiding for plunder.

Balon was safest in his hopes/dreams as long as Robb was there to steal the spotlight, as it were.

Literally everyone but you is pointing this out.

Why do you refuse to admit that Balon attacking his one potential ally, and gaining another enemy is bad for business?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend Bran.

[rystine]

No, not this again. The south possesses, as far as we know, all the ships, and most of the wealth, so losing the riverlands and the north doesn't really hinder them retaking the iron islands if they are distressed by raids. The only way separate kingdoms helps is 1) if Robb promises to launch an attack every time someone looks to be going to move on Balon (which he didn't promise to do ~ and is really unlikely) or 2) the south wouldn't want to attack the ironborn given they are attacking their other enemies, the northmen. The idea Tywin or Renly would waste vast sums of money and manpower in an assault on Pyke, when the ironborn are doing their work for them , for free, in the north, is a total and complete joke.

How can you say that it's a joke that Tywin/Renly/Stannis/whoever would waste the resources to retake the Iron Islands when we know good and well that that is exactly what they would do? True, they may wait until they consolidate their power elsewhere, and for the Ironborn and Northerners exhaust themselves. But as I said there is not a single contender for the Iron Throne who has any notion of leaving the Iron Islands alone when all is said and done.

And as long as there is no other potential threat within Westeros to provide a deterrent than independence for the Iron Islands is simply not going to happen. Whats the chance that any sort of "deterrent kingdom" will work to keep the Iron Islands independent? Not much. But at least it's a chance, which is something that simply doesn't exist if the rest of Westeros is fully under the control of the Iron Throne.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

True but you see how independence worked out for him.

[The Unborn]

He wasn't stupid for the sole act of rejecting Robb's offer and that alone shouldn't be held against him.

He was an idiot for believing his retarded alternatives were better.

This.

[TheWanderer]

No, not this again. The south possesses, as far as we know, all the ships, and most of the wealth, so losing the riverlands and the north doesn't really hinder them retaking the iron islands if they are distressed by raids.

Yes it does. Losing the North and the Riverlands doesn't hurt their bank accounts or their fleets, but it hurst their power. If Robb proves that independence from the Iron Throne is possible, that it's word is not law and it's force is not unquestionable, then why would anyone listen to it? You don't think the Dornish would cecede almost immediately, or the Arryns for that matter? Suddenly your Seven Kingdoms are just three, surrounded on all sides by enemies. You don't think that changes the picture?

The only way separate kingdoms helps is 1) if Robb promises to launch an attack every time someone looks to be going to move on Balon (which he didn't promise to do ~ and is really unlikely)

The only way that Robb and the south reach even a temporary peace is if Robb has shattered everything that even remotely resembles a military in the south and forces the Iron Throne to come begging for peace. At that point it doesn't matter if Robb wouldn't come to aid his ally (and I think he would, honourable fellow that he is) because there's nothing left that can threaten Balon.

2) the south wouldn't want to attack the ironborn given they are attacking their other enemies, the northmen.

And so they won't, until the Northmen are no longer their enemy. The North is a bigger threat than the Iron Islands, and so long as it exists as an independent kingdom the Iron Throne will fight against it and the Ironborn will be left alone. As soon as the North ceases to be a threat than the only remaining independent kingdom becomes the last remaining threat and the new king will crush it utterly. Balon is actively aiding in the destruction of the North, even though the North is the only thing preventing his own destruction. How can you not see that that's foolish?

[krzeniux27]

Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is the maddest of them all. And i completely agree with this post.

He was offered an alliance, a kingdom of his own (which means getting back the old way) but noo he wanted the north but they couldn't even hold it. He was loyal to the old way.

[Dukhasinov]

I think its important to mention that Balon was extremely idiotic; the Starks didn't kill his sons. Jason Mallister killed one and the other I cannot remember, but a Stark did not do it personally.

So the whole personal grudge aspect of his attack on the North is pretty dumb.

Ned Stark lead the assault on Pike along with Robert. Since his son was crushed by a collapsed tower during the siege, that makes Ned the nearest responsible party, in Balon`s mind. PLUS, Ned made off with his only surviving son, and turned him into one of his wolf pups. Plus, the Starks are in reach, and the Barratheons are not. I`m not saying that Balon wasn`t retarded for doing it. I`m just arguing that Balon`s retardation must be viewed in the context of Balon`s personal hangups and the culture he comes from, and so does not constitute bad writing. Real world leaders make terrible decisions based on faulty logic or personal pet peves all the time.

[Mine Is Not The Fury]

I agree Balon had no obligation. Theon is another matter.

No, not realy. It was still a dick move but he had no obligations to the Stark cause.

[Ahendrl]

What Balon did was the best option he had. What I don't like him for is for being a pillaging rapist..

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes it does. Losing the North and the Riverlands doesn't hurt their bank accounts or their fleets, but it hurst their power. If Robb proves that independence from the Iron Throne is possible, that it's word is not law and it's force is not unquestionable, then why would anyone listen to it? You don't think the Dornish would cecede almost immediately, or the Arryns for that matter? Suddenly your Seven Kingdoms are just three, surrounded on all sides by enemies. You don't think that changes the picture?

No, because they didn't.

The only way that Robb and the south reach even a temporary peace is if Robb has shattered everything that even remotely resembles a military in the south and forces the Iron Throne to come begging for peace. At that point it doesn't matter if Robb wouldn't come to aid his ally (and I think he would, honourable fellow that he is) because there's nothing left that can threaten Balon.

Balon doesn't know what is going to happen, he just knows Robb isn't going to jump around, and derange his policies, so as to come to his aid, as he never promised to do that.

And so they won't, until the Northmen are no longer their enemy. The North is a bigger threat than the Iron Islands, and so long as it exists as an independent kingdom the Iron Throne will fight against it and the Ironborn will be left alone. As soon as the North ceases to be a threat than the only remaining independent kingdom becomes the last remaining threat and the new king will crush it utterly. Balon is actively aiding in the destruction of the North, even though the North is the only thing preventing his own destruction. How can you not see that that's foolish?

The main reason the iron born would be left alone by the south is if they don't attack the iron throne's subjects, which, on Balon's plan, they don't do. The war with the northerners could go on for some time, and the iron throne would not be in a great hurry to drive the ironborn out of the north anyway (see the comments of Mace Tyrell). On the Robb-Theon plan the more powerful south is attacked directly, in its wealthiest region, so an assault on Balon's conquests would come much sooner. There is nothing inherently more foolish about these calculations than those that suggest Balon would be better off allying with Robb; indeed, they are a good deal more sensible. I have no idea what the obsession is with presenting Balon's plan as utterly stupid is, when the author does not ...

[mcb]

What Balon did was the best option he had. What I don't like him for is for being a pillaging rapist..

Let's see. A raid without loot, a conquest without a chance to keep, and war against both the North and the South (because a liege lord will inevitably get prickly if his vassal declares independence). How exactly is that the best option? Even sitting on his ass and pretending he hadn't received any messages would be more profitable.

[Thor Odinson]

Pretty much. Rejecting Robb's offer makes sense, he has a grudge and the terms weren't stellar (not to mention they contradict the Old Way). But crowning himself and attacking for no reason other than wounded pride was unbelievably stupid when you know the Ironborn thrive on chaos. Letting the North and Westerlands bleed each other out in a long war would have been much smarter than aiding the North's defeat, thereby speeding the Westerland's victory by that much and closing the opporunity he had. He was a short-sighted, foolish, prideful, idiotic old man for sure.

Exactly. Accepting Robb's offer would've opened up the door to immense rewards. He could've pillaged the Westerlands, possibly conquered it, and maybe even sack King's Landing in the process. Turning on the North was the dumbest thing he could've done. And in all honesty, it seems that he was frightened of Tywin Lannister, which partly factored into his decision.

[victim]

What annoyed me the most about Balon Greyjoy was that he more or less said: "No man gives me a crown, I take my crown. Theon, Asha, go and do everything for me while I chill in Pyke."

Robb was ~5 when the Greyjoy's rebelled. His only knowledge of the Ironborn came from Theon, who himself was raised to be more noble and honourable. The entire point of Ned taking Theon as a ward was so that once Balon died, Pyke would have a Lord that is both loyal to the crown and capable of love and empathy. Obviously it didn't turn out that way because Ned died first and Robb, without proper knowledge of how sour Balon Greyjoy was, decided to attempt to strike a deal with him.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

What annoyed me the most about Balon Greyjoy was that he more or less said: "No man gives me a crown, I take my crown. Theon, Asha, go and do everything for me while I chill in Pyke."

This too. Balon was psychotic. Contradictory. Idiotic. The only way you can even remotely agree with him is because you're trying to deliberately undermine Robb because you're an anti-hero fanboy.