I'm no friend of Balon Greyjoy, but he had no obligation to accept Robb Stark's alliance

[Grip]

Yeah I understand Balons descision, from his point of view its hardly surprising that he refused the offer. He is Ironborn, doing anything other then denying Robb would have been uncharacteristic.

[IRON BANK]

I agree: Rob is thinking balon will be sensible, I don't know if he got that impression from Theon or what but that was a bad decisioon.

[Toxspecific]

I disagree with people saying accepting the offer would not have been Ironborn. It would. See, Balon's in a state of imprisonment, sort of. He tried to be king, his rebellion was crushed and he was reduced to a lord again. One of the men who brought him down like this was Ned Stark. Now, Ned's heir Robb is offering Balon freedom. Accepting the offer to gain freedom then do whatever you want with it would have been very Ironborn... Especially considering there was plunder involved.

[Dukhasinov]

Of course, accepting Rob Stark`s offer was the coldly logical smart thing to do, but it`s hard to be coldly logical when the death of your own children is involved. The Starks brought his castle down around him, killed two of his sons and took the third as a hostage. The fact that it was Balon`s own fault doesn`t change this. In fact, it probably makes it worse. He hates the Starks even more over the death of his sons and the destruction of his fleet because of his own guilt.

No one can just swallow that kind of emotional baggage and think objectively. And I don`t think that this is weak writing, because OTHER CHARACTERS point out that attempting to conquer the North was foolish, namely Asha.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Of course, accepting Rob Stark`s offer was the coldly logical smart thing to do, but it`s hard to be coldly logical when the death of your own children is involved. The Starks brought his castle down around him, killed two of his sons and took the third as a hostage. The fact that it was Balon`s own fault doesn`t change this. In fact, it probably makes it worse. He hates the Starks even more over the death of his sons and the destruction of his fleet because of his own guilt.

No one can just swallow that kind of emotional baggage and think objectively. And I don`t think that this is weak writing, because OTHER CHARACTERS point out that attempting to conquer the North was foolish, namely Asha.

Other people have pointed out that various other major Houses were just as much responsible for Balons sons deaths. In fact, Rodrik was killed by Jason Mallister of the Riverlands, and Maron was killed shortly after the wall was breached by a combination of Roberts and Neds forces, a death which neither Robert nor Ned were directly involved in. Lannister, Tully, and Tyrell were all just as responsible for Maron and Rodriks deaths, and the Lannisters held Aeron prisoner for years. It's just a stupid case of Balon being an absolute dropkick moron. "Be a king, have an ally!" "Nah, I'll be a king and have no allies, start a war I can't possibly win, then cry when my terms are rejected"

[devilrob6]

Balon just knew what was the losing side after seeing how Robb's offer was presented.

He did push Robb a bit further to the losing side by not accepting his offer and attacking the North. But assuming that he expected Robb to lose, Balon still didn't pick the 'winning' side. He created his own side, with no chance of winning at all.

[Toxspecific]

Of course, accepting Rob Stark`s offer was the coldly logical smart thing to do, but it`s hard to be coldly logical when the death of your own children is involved. The Starks brought his castle down around him, killed two of his sons and took the third as a hostage. The fact that it was Balon`s own fault doesn`t change this. In fact, it probably makes it worse. He hates the Starks even more over the death of his sons and the destruction of his fleet because of his own guilt.

No one can just swallow that kind of emotional baggage and think objectively. And I don`t think that this is weak writing, because OTHER CHARACTERS point out that attempting to conquer the North was foolish, namely Asha.

I think its important to mention that Balon was extremely idiotic; the Starks didn't kill his sons. Jason Mallister killed one and the other I cannot remember, but a Stark did not do it personally.

So the whole personal grudge aspect of his attack on the North is pretty dumb.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

I dont think anyone disagrees with your assessment of Balon, but it wasnt his refusal of Robb's offer that became a huge issue...it was Theon's decision to take Winterfell (without Balon's knowledge or consent if I remember correctly) that because an issue for Robb. Not only did it put a huge crack in the foundation of Robb's rule, but the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon likely led Catelyn to commit one of her epic acts of stupidity by releasing Jaime.

[Jslay427]

Balon, The Lord reaper of Pyke, should have lost his head for rebelling, along with Victarion and Aeron and of course Euron. Someone like the Reader should have been made Theons regent until Theon came of age. Stuff goes different this way.

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

he didn't have too ally with Robb but he is still so retarded to actually think he can hold a lot of the North from the iron Islands, i mean WTF he isn't practical enough really.

You might argue that Euron isn't practical enough however he wants all of westeros, therefore if he did get it all he would be the undisputed king, whilst balon wanted part of westeros for himself so he was always going to have his enemies nearby instead of them being vanquished

[Sullen]

I think its important to mention that Balon was extremely idiotic; the Starks didn't kill his sons. Jason Mallister killed one and the other I cannot remember, but a Stark did not do it personally.

So the whole personal grudge aspect of his attack on the North is pretty dumb.

The North/Eddard stole his last son.

He has every right to hold a grudge against them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The North/Eddard stole his last son.

He has every right to hold a grudge against them.

I don't think that because of his defeat his punisment was his son to grew up elsewhere so he wouldn't dare to start a new rebellion is stealing...Punisment yes stealing no.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think people read too much into Balon's assertion The Ned killed his sons. He was just angry Theon had 'forgetten' that the ironborn had been defeated by Ned and Robert. Ned was the one holding Theon hostage so he said Ned killed 'my sons' to remind him the Starks were one of the houses he had a grudge against. No reason to think he didn't want revenge against Robert or Stannis either, they were just out of his reach.

The west was still better defended than the north at the time too, and the prospects for holding the north longer term were brighter. GrrM does make all this clear but some people do not want to hear it ...

[Sullen]

I don't think that because of his defeat his punisment was his son to grew up elsewhere so he wouldn't dare to start a new rebellion is stealing...Punisment yes stealing no.

This might not be how Balon sees it though.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

This might not be how Balon sees it though.

well he must knew he lost and as someone said:

Balon was mad...

[Independent George]

The entire Ironborn culture rejects such heretical foreign ideas as 'commerce', 'wealth creation', and 'comparative advantage' in favor of raiding and pillaging. It's utterly stupid, but completely in-character, for him to reject a mutually-beneficial alliance with better long-term prospects for wealth and power precisely because it's mutually-beneficial and offers better long-term prospects for wealth and power. Those ideas are anathema to the Ironborn.

[The Frosted King]

I think people read too much into Balon's assertion The Ned killed his sons. He was just angry Theon had 'forgetten' that the ironborn had been defeated by Ned and Robert. Ned was the one holding Theon hostage so he said Ned killed 'my sons' to remind him the Starks were one of the houses he had a grudge against. No reason to think he didn't want revenge against Robert or Stannis either, they were just out of his reach.

The west was still better defended than the north at the time too, and the prospects for holding the north longer term were brighter. GrrM does make all this clear but some people do not want to hear it ...

What were the brighter prospects?

Cuz all he did in ACOK was ensure that he'd spend his power first fighting the north, and should he miraculously defeat them on their home turf, he'd promptly have to fight the united south.

Casterly Rock was garrisoned, but Lannisport was undermanned, thanks to Stafford.

Be it gold or thralls, the west is a much juicier bite.

Or was the depopulated Stony Shore a better pull than the relatively populous western shore?

Give it up Bran.

Contrived plot direction, as is his right as author.

[Chaircat Meow]

What were the brighter prospects?

Cuz all he did in ACOK was ensure that he'd spend his power first fighting the north, and should he miraculously defeat them on their home turf, he'd promptly have to fight the united south.

Casterly Rock was garrisoned, but Lannisport was undermanned, thanks to Stafford.

Be it gold or thralls, the west is a much juicier bite.

Or was the depopulated Stony Shore a better pull than the relatively populous western shore?

Give it up Bran.

Contrived plot direction, as is his right as author.

It is a really obvious min-max strategy; you don't gain as much if you do it this way, but you are unlikely to lose as much if it goes wrong and yea, you can fit revenge in there too, in a nice juicy package.

It makes perfect rational sense which is to his credit as an author.

Give it up Frosted. :laugh:

You have more of a point about the Vale although Lysa's character accounts for it. If Jon Arryn had not been murdered the Starks would never have fallen, but he, did so things were set in motion and his knights never marched when the war started.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

I wouldn't call it contrived, but Balon did do something stupid because of half-imagined wounds inflincted by the father of the one who was sending the message. Balon had a few options.

1. Ally with Robb, be crowned King of the Iron Isles, pillage the Westerlands and the Reach. If he loses, he would probably die, or the Greyjoys lose the Iron Isles and its given to another family. If he wins, he becomes King.

2. Ally with the Lannisters, attack Robb in the backside, earn the gratitude of the Iron Throne, erase past "wrongs" should they win. If they lose, no real issue, Robb wouldn't be his liege anyways.

3. Support Stannis, I think Renly was dead by this point, but neither side had much to gain from an alliance.

4. Stay Neutral, no matter who wins or loses, no one would really give them much mind. Meh.

5. Strike out on their own, they win, they get the Iron Isles and whatever lands they conquered. Long shot. They lose, they have earned the ire of the Northmen and the Iron Throne. They went this route, but then TRIED to go back to option two, and that didn't work. So it's like a reverse Xanatos Gambit, where instead of every ending being in their favor, every possible ending worked out against them. Even if they won, they would still have at least one very large, now freshly united kingdom on the mainland to deal with.

[rystine]

At the time that Balon made his plans to declare the Iron Islands an independent kingdom again there were four kings in Westeros. Renly, Stannis, and the Lannisters were never going to accept the Greyjoys as kings and all had the ability to retake the Iron Islands if and/or when they secured the Iron Throne. And the Iron Islands don't have the forces to stop them from doing so.

Robb was the only one that was willing to acknowledge Balon's crown and possibly ally himself with them to help maintain their independence.

Yea, he didn't have any obligation to accept any sort of alliance with Robb. But he was faced with three definite enemies and one possible ally, and he chose to turn that potential friend into yet another enemy, which in the long term has most likely doomed independence for the Ironborn yet again.