The second Dance With Dragons : how it will happen

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

It's interesting discussing the "Dance with Dragons" which is to occur in "The Winds of Winter." There was certainly lots of wintry weather in ADwD. I wonder if GRRM considered switching the titles? (Probably not, just idle daydreaming speculation :) )

I doubt he ever thought to switch them, but I think the explanation for this would be that the 2nd Dance with Dragons was supposed to begin in aDwD, i.e. ADwD was supposed to get a lot further in the story than it did, certainly when it was the title of the original Book 4 of 6 and there was a 5 year gap between it and ASoS. I mean very very early on, before AGoT was even done, it was the title of Book 2 of a trilogy. I think once GRRM said it was the title of book 4 of 6, and stuck with that til he came up with the intermediate book 4 of 7, A Feast for Crows, which was split and added on to then create the book 5 we have now. At that point he wasn't going to not use the 3 titles he intended for the remaining books as he planned I think, so he stuck with them, making a ADwD that ends before a 2nd Dance with Dragons could begin.

*^please let me know if i contradicted any of the facts in the above story/speculation

EDIT P.S. - I believe GRRM is going to need to cover more story in TWoW than ever before if he is going to be able to finish the story as he intended with just these last to books, and not with an extra Book 8.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I agree. The "Slayer of Lies" will slay the lies that surrounds the Mummer's dragon.

I believe her hate won't last forever. Viserys planted that hate inside her head, but he's dead. She mainly mentioned "The Usurper" (instead of calling him King Robert) in COK several times when she was still the beggar queen, but in SOS, she only mentioned him five times. She hated him more, maybe, but in DwD she felt "almost sorry" for what happened to him when she saw how the boar was killing Barsena. The "Usurper dogs," she only mentioned twice in each book (yeah, I counted it during my re-read :D). In DWD, she surely displayed her ill-feelings towards them. "If a child is set upon by pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? "All the dogs are just as guilty." She said that in reference to the Starks/Lannisters, but then she remembered what Drogon did to Hazzea - her own words "caught in her throat." I think she thinks that she is as guilty, too (coz she's the momma of her monstrous "children"). With that in her mind, I believe she will let go of that hate, 'coz if not, she's the greatest hypocrite of all.

If he bends his knees, or runs again like what happened in the BBW, that means he's weak, and he will carry that shame for the rest of his life. So, Stannis will probably fight this time until the bitter end; but like you said, he must survive Ramsay first.

Great points.

[MaxV]

I frigging hope so. That or he gets roasted by Drogon after he becomes the new Night's King.

lol, yea I think Stannis will certainly die and Drogon just might be the one to do it. Remember Danny's "Slayer of lies" prophesy at the House of Undying in CoK? Well the first lie she's going to "slay" is the "blue-eyed king who wielded a red sword and cast no shadow." That would be Stannis, the AA pretender. That is unless Ramsay Bolton's dogs eat him. I think getting burned would be a fitting end for Stannis, after all the burning he does.

[MaxV]

I agree. The "Slayer of Lies" will slay the lies that surrounds the Mummer's dragon.

I believe her hate won't last forever. Viserys planted that hate inside her head, but he's dead. She mainly mentioned "The Usurper" (instead of calling him King Robert) in COK several times when she was still the beggar queen, but in SOS, she only mentioned him five times. She hated him more, maybe, but in DwD she felt "almost sorry" for what happened to him when she saw how the boar was killing Barsena. The "Usurper dogs," she only mentioned twice in each book (yeah, I counted it during my re-read :D). In DWD, she surely displayed her ill-feelings towards them. "If a child is set upon by pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? "All the dogs are just as guilty." She said that in reference to the Starks/Lannisters, but then she remembered what Drogon did to Hazzea - her own words "caught in her throat." I think she thinks that she is as guilty, too (coz she's the momma of her monstrous "children"). With that in her mind, I believe she will let go of that hate, 'coz if not, she's the greatest hypocrite of all.

She hates Baratheon, mainly he killed Rhaegar, his children and her father. And she hates Starks and Lannisters because she thinks they had a direct hand in their deaths, mainly of Rhaegar's children. But of course, only the Lannisters were involved in all that, Ned only helped with the battles of the rebellion. Maybe she might come to know the truth of it, and not hate the Starks anymore. I think Ser Barristan will help with that, who knew and admired Ned Stark.

Also the "dogs are just as guilty," and her choking soon after that, I thought referred to her guilt for imprisoning Viserion and Rhaegal for crimes Drogon committed. They end up guilty just for being dragons, and Danny is heartbroken (and stupid in my opinion) to imprison them, especially given that they are the best behaved and less feral than Drogon. I didn't think that had much to do with Danny sharing the guilt as their "mother."

[~Shiera Seastar~]

She hates Baratheon, mainly he killed Rhaegar, his children and her father. And she hates Starks and Lannisters because she thinks they had a direct hand in their deaths, mainly of Rhaegar's children. But of course, only the Lannisters were involved in all that, Ned only helped with the battles of the rebellion. Maybe she might come to know the truth of it, and not hate the Starks anymore. I think Ser Barristan will help with that, who knew and admired Ned Stark.

Also the "dogs are just as guilty," and her choking soon after that, I thought referred to her guilt for imprisoning Viserion and Rhaegal for crimes Drogon committed. They end up guilty just for being dragons, and Danny is heartbroken (and stupid in my opinion) to imprison them, especially given that they are the best behaved and less feral than Drogon. I didn't think that had much to do with Danny sharing the guilt as their "mother."

She chained them down below so they won't kill another "Hazzea." When she went down to the dungeon to see her children, she said to herself, "Mother of Dragons," "Mother of monsters. What I have unleashed upon the world?" So, if the "Usurper" unleashed his "dogs" and killed two innocent children and they are all "just as guilty," she was also guilty of the crime of her children. "If they are monsters, so I am." After that realization, she never mentioned the "Usurper dogs" again in her next 8 chapters. But when she mentioned the "Usurper" in her 9th chapter, she called him by his name, which was unusual.

[lil_z]

lol, yea I think Stannis will certainly die and Drogon just might be the one to do it. Remember Danny's "Slayer of lies" prophesy at the House of Undying in CoK? Well the first lie she's going to "slay" is the "blue-eyed king who wielded a red sword and cast no shadow." That would be Stannis, the AA pretender. That is unless Ramsay Bolton's dogs eat him. I think getting burned would be a fitting end for Stannis, after all the burning he does.

Yeah I totaly agree here. Stannis seems like a big lead up to another tragedy story, like Ned Stark. He stuck to his convictions, he did everything he could to work toward what he sees as his rightful claim short of comprimising his honor. But he's met with so many defeats and set backs, his stubborn manor will only end his life in tragedy.

I see a second field of fire in his future. I can almost image this epic scene were Dany demands Stannis bend the knee and Stannis stubborn and unbending refusses. Dany releases her Dragons on him, in horror and a repeat of the first Targ conquest the other houses will rally to her. A second herald to end all questions who will reign in Westeros.

Almost seems poetic, a circle of destinies theme.

[TheEvilKing]

Illyro and Varys will have a major disagreement resulting from Aegon marrying Sansa, who is Littlefinger's pawn, not one of Varys. Illyrio will wish to continue supporting Aegon, but Varys will go to Dany and tell her that Aegon is a fake (note: this could be true or untrue, either way it matters not for the end result). Dany will be faced with the decision of taking Pentos for Tatters or supporting the man who sheltered her and gave her the dragon eggs. She will choose Tats, and Illyrio will flee to King's Landing. Dany will take Dragonstone at the end of TWOW and will use it as her base of operations in the war against Aegon.

The Tyrells and the Lannisters will be too busy duking it out in the East and Jon will have nothing to do with any of this.

[gougef]

Yeah I totaly agree here. Stannis seems like a big lead up to another tragedy story, like Ned Stark. He stuck to his convictions, he did everything he could to work toward what he sees as his rightful claim short of comprimising his honor. But he's met with so many defeats and set backs, his stubborn manor will only end his life in tragedy.

I see a second field of fire in his future. I can almost image this epic scene were Dany demands Stannis bend the knee and Stannis stubborn and unbending refusses. Dany releases her Dragons on him, in horror and a repeat of the first Targ conquest the other houses will rally to her. A second herald to end all questions who will reign in Westeros.

Almost seems poetic, a circle of destinies theme.

Never was invested in Stannis when I first read the books, but after reading a lot of discussion here developed an interest. I have a totally illogical belief that he survives. He survives, never, ever reaching his goals, losing everything, but still trying.

Just something about the man is "inconquerable". Like dying, but won't stay dead ;)

[lil_z]

Never was invested in Stannis when I first read the books, but after reading a lot of discussion here developed an interest. I have a totally illogical belief that he survives. He survives, never, ever reaching his goals, losing everything, but still trying.

Just something about the man is "inconquerable". Like dying, but won't stay dead ;)

That's an interesting thought. In GRRM tradition of character tragedy stories Stannis just seems to fit the bill in many ways. Like Theon, his brothers are all dead. He's always been the odd man out through the rebellion and there after. Like Ned he's a strict man, unbending and unyielding. Like Vayrs says to Ned in the dungeons. "I don't see many men of honor, but seeing what honor has got you I'm not surprised there are so few."

Then again I can't recall the time and place but I believe Varys mentions that its not the men without honor you should fear its the one's with an unbending will. In the tradition of GRRM that certainly points to a lot of people and most of all Stannis. He will be interesting to see in the coming books.

[Bob the Fiddler]

Doesn't any one think that TWOW will be more northern centric with more Others involvement? I'm thinking some heavy dragon artillery may be needed when the cold winds rise and the undead start owning everybody up north.

[lil_z]

Doesn't any one think that TWOW will be more northern centric with more Others involvement? I'm thinking some heavy dragon artillery may be needed when the cold winds rise and the undead start owning everybody up north.

That's mentioned a lot for TWOW theories and expectations. There is a ton of lead into a major event at the wall. Who knows perhaps Dany's return is side tracked to deal with the north. More likely the south is broiled in war and are forced to stop as reports of WW spread south. Will the major conflicts end to until against the WW threat, will they ignore them till it's too late? Who know's.

In either case I agree the north and the WW will make themselve known in Westeros again. Gives me goose bumps to think about.

[Despot]

At first, I thought that a second "Dance" will be a Dany vs Aegon fight. But now, I'm not so sure. First, because it's the most anticipated option, and good old George is a tricky guy when expectations are concerned. Second, the little girl in Arianne chapter from WoW said that "everywhere where dragons danced, people died" - it sounds like a massive destruction to me (Black Harren vol 2. ,3 ,4 etc). Neither Dany nor Aegon doesn't look like a persons who would burn cities just like that. Maybe Aegon, but I doubt.

But, I have a candidate who looks perfectly willing to burn a city or two : Euron Greyjoy. I think that Moqorro said that he sees Euron Greyjoy "in the sea of blood" (something like that). It fits nicely (although doesn't mean that I'm right; I'm sure that Euron is full of imagination when creating a "see of blood" is concerned, so he can do it without dragons as well).But, as I said, it fits nicely. He looks like a guy who can give us a proper demonstration what happens when mad dude gets a dragon - and it seems to me that good old George likes to give such demonstrations.

So, Euron,would be my guess as a "bad" guy in "dance". "Good" guy? I would say, Daenerys , at some point. But, before her, someone who will fight Euron and loose,helping Euron to burn the country while loosing. Most probably, Aegon.

Side note : I do think that Lannisters will keep KL and Iron Throne until Dany comes. Because, I think that Dany is younger and more beautiful queen.

Apologize to all because of the length of a post, and possible errors , I'm not a native speaker.

[Manderlay]

This is how I think it will happen; Daenerys will reach westeros a little later than we think in tWoW, Aegon will have already won the Iron Throne or would be marching towards KL, Aegon has GC, Stormlords, Dorne and some of the Tyrell bannermen, most notably Hightowers who are a powerful house, Tyrell/Lannister alliance is already fragile and after a defeat, Lord Mace Tyrell will bend the knee to Aegon, Cersei will flee to Castely Rock, back to westerlands and Lannister army will reform there.

Sansa will dispose LF, most likely kill him, then marry sweet robin and will have the loyalty of the lords of the Vale with the support of the Royce's, particularly Yohn Royce and even Nestor Royce, as she is the lady of the Eyrie and an Arryn by marriage.

Daenerys will be accompanied by Tyrion and they will land in Gulltown, the port on the east of westeros and in the lands of the Vale, the Graftons once fought for the Targaryens during Robert's rebellion. As Tyrion and Sansa never consummated their marriage by the laws of seven kingdoms there marriage was not bonding or could be put aside. Sansa and Daenerys will make common cause and alliance to fight Lannisters and (f)Aegon. During this the North will stay out of the wars in the south as winter is harsh over there and they will be busy fighting Boltons/Frey's and keeping an eye on the wall. Stannis won't leave the North as well, he will stay there as his priority is to fight the others.

Daenerys and Sansa will move out of the mountains of the vale and will win the Riverlords (the mountain clans as well with Tyrion convincing them) and we will see the Blackfish in command of the riverlords, the riverlords will protect their flank with some vale lords and Unsullied against lannisters who sit in the west, while the main force drives towards KL with Daenerys, Sansa and Tyrion. How the Dragons will be used, I have no idea, atleast one will be ridden by Daenerys, perhaps one by sweet robin? I think SR, the Lord of the Eyrie is going to grow strong thanks to Sansa and Daenerys, how? I have no idea ... but it is a likely scenario.

There is an excellent thread in General ASOIAF about this http://asoiaf.wester...-of-dragons-20/

[TheEvilKing]

Doesn't any one think that TWOW will be more northern centric with more Others involvement? I'm thinking some heavy dragon artillery may be needed when the cold winds rise and the undead start owning everybody up north.

Dany seems destined to go North eventually, but I doubt it'll happen before the latter half of the last book. TWoW will be about the fall of Meereen and her journey to Westeros.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I think we are reading too much into this and romanticizing things. I believe the 2nd dance will between the two dragons: Jon and Dany, not fAegon and Dany.

[Theralion]

Daenerys has all the time in the world to invade Westeros, there was no point in rushing except for all those people pushing her. She didn't know about the walkers or aegon, and the safest action would have been to wait out winter in the east. Aegon's appearance will force her to accelerate her plans or lose everything.

And she will declare war on him, she didn't climb her way out of the dirt to take 2nd place, she wants to be queen in her own right.

She will win, she has dragons, he doesn't.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Does the dance have to occur before defeating the WW? Why not after once the realm is saved and all eyes turn towards the IT? Do we have this backwards?

And again I think it will be between Jon (ice) and DT (fire).

[JonisHenryTudor]

Daenerys has all the time in the world to invade Westeros, there was no point in rushing except for all those people pushing her. She didn't know about the walkers or aegon, and the safest action would have been to wait out winter in the east. Aegon's appearance will force her to accelerate her plans or lose everything.

And she will declare war on him, she didn't climb her way out of the dirt to take 2nd place, she wants to be queen in her own right.

She will win, she has dragons, he doesn't.

Even a dragon cannot have its eyes everywhere at once. Martin wants to maintain a sense of realism, and in warfare it is never a guarantee that the victor is the side with larger weapons. I can give many, many examples where this certainly was not the case.

[aryagonnakill]

Even a dragon cannot have its eyes everywhere at once. Martin wants to maintain a sense of realism, and in warfare it is never a guarantee that the victor is the side with larger weapons. I can give many, many examples where this certainly was not the case.

Well GRRM said that he considered the dragons to be the equivalent of nukes, and you can't give any examples of a country using nukes a loosing.

[Visual909]

North Korea one day....

On a more serious note. While Aegon and Dany seem like natural allies, Dany has also been warned about them twice now. The first time in The House of the Undying one of her visions was a "paper dragon" being cheered at by an adoring crowd. This implying a pretender will show itself and earn the favor of the realm.

The second time is more recent when quaithe reappeared to warn her to not trust the "murmurer's dragon" also implying a fake targ or at least on under the influence of a said murmurer such as Varys for instance.

These two prophecies have lead many to believe in the eventual conflict of these two parties, but that doesn't mean the "Dance of Dragons 2.0" has to only have exclusively two people it might incorporate a third like stated earlier with Jon, but I find this less likely since his war on the Others seems to be a very pressing matter for him.

And as for Stannis IMO while I think he will break before he will bend I think the only person he would bend to is Jon. Since Jon has shown the rare quality of frankness to him and has done various other things to earn his respect even if he won't admit it.