Ice and Fire animal project: Wolves

[Winterfellian]

I finally had some time to catch with this project and I gotta say, Mladen awesome job! :bowdown:

I really like your comparison between the wolves and the Stark kids. For me the personalities of the direwolves reflected the ones of their respective owners and your impressive essay made me see it in a different light.

I believe that all the parallels between the direwolves and the Stark kids you drawn up in your essay are not coincidence and it offers a very contrasting view to Illyrio’s words to when he offered to take Tyrion to the cage of a real life Lion:

"You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles”

I do wonder if Illyrio will still feel the same if he knew of the Stark’s warging abilities. The Stark kids are not wolves because of some wolf figure sown on their cloths but because they can literally wear the skin of said sigil to become one.

The Lone wolf figure

I am far from being an expert of wolf behavior so I might be venturing in dangerous waters here. One of Ned's most iconic quotes, and one that resonates in the story of all of his children's is:

When the cold wind blows the lone wolf dies but the pack survives

At first glance it appears that the figure of the lonely wolf can be applied to all the Stark kids, even Jon. They are all in situations where they are separated from their pack and forced to adopt the position of the lone wolf. I did a little research and I found out that what defines this type of wolves is the isolation. However to get down to the root of it the two main questions to ask about this kind of wolves are:

- Does he isolate himself of his own free will?

- Is he isolated because he is stigmatized by the rest of the pack?

I thought it interesting that neither of the above can be applied to the Stark children, not even Ghost who was initially cast out of the litter. Is external circumstances that forced them to adopt this position in the first place. For me, while they may take the position of the lone wolf, because this wasn't brought on in a "natural sort of way" they don't retain the animal's defining characteristics.The Stark kids all longed for packs of their own. Cat notes how Robb has replaced Theon and Jon with the Westerling siblings; Sansa tried to fit into Margaery's flock of hens; Arya had Hot Pie and Gendry; Bran has Jojen, Meera and Hodor and even Summer tried to form a pack of his own; Jon notes after arriving at the wall how Pyp, Sam and the rest were his brothers now.

In other words, because of the way the Stark kids were put in the situations they are now they are not so much lone wolves as they are isolated wolves.

[Mladen]

I finally had some time to catch with this project and I gotta say, Mladen awesome job! :bowdown:

I really like your comparison between the wolves and the Stark kids. For me the personalities of the direwolves reflected the ones of their respective owners and your impressive essay made me see it in a different light.

I believe that all the parallels between the direwolves and the Stark kids you drawn up in your essay are not coincidence and it offers a very contrasting view to Illyrio’s words to when he offered to take Tyrion to the cage of a real life Lion:

I do wonder if Illyrio will still feel the same if he knew of the Stark’s warging abilities. The Stark kids are not wolves because of some wolf figure sown on their cloths but because they can literally wear the skin of said sigil to become one.

Thank you, Winterfellian, for the kind words.

Now, it`s interesting to see these parallels between animals on sigil, and their families. Each family represented with different animal is GRRM`s own way to tell us that those animals aren`t chosen lightly, that he did put a lot of effort creating their sigils, history and mythology. That`s one of the main reasons why I think Illyrio`s perspective is wrong, especially when Starks are concern. For, unlike Lannisters, or Tullys and Arryns, Starks are still connected to the wild nature of their sigil, and the wolf on it. Lannister may not survive lion, as much as any Stark wouldn`t survive attack of the wolves, but there`s a clear line that separates them. Stark kids connected with their direwolves are more than just ordinary children, and much more than common wolves. Martin`s mythology that unites biology and fiction is something that sets the tone of each Stark POV.

I am far from being an expert of wolf behavior so I might be venturing in dangerous waters here.

Neither am I, but that doesn`t hav to stop us in discussing the matter.

I thought it interesting that neither of the above can be applied to the Stark children, not even Ghost who was initially cast out of the litter. Is external circumstances that forced them to adopt this position in the first place. For me, while they may take the position of the lone wolf, because this wasn't brought on in a "natural sort of way" they don't retain the animal's defining characteristics.The Stark kids all longed for packs of their own. Cat notes how Robb has replaced Theon and Jon with the Westerling siblings; Sansa tried to fit into Margaery's flock of hens; Arya had Hot Pie and Gendry; Bran has Jojen, Meera and Hodor and even Summer tried to form a pack of his own; Jon notes after arriving at the wall how Pyp, Sam and the rest were his brothers now.

In other words, because of the way the Stark kids were put in the situations they are now they are not so much lone wolves as they are isolated wolves.

Interesting point. What I found ironic in Ned`s words is that his children survived being isolated for so long. But, alas winter has finally come, and time has come for reunion. I couldn`t agree more with what you said about Stark being isolated and their desire to be part of something bigger. I also believe that soon they will emerge as the real wolves, reclaim their identities, and reunite once more. We have such beautiful proofs that while outside, they are pretending to be someone else, deep down in them, they remain wolves. Sansa`s snow castle, Arya`s Needle, Jon`s reaction to pink letter, Bran`s connection to Summer, all of them remained who they are. That loyalty and strength of personnality is something very common among the wolves living in pack. That`s why they are not lone wolves searching for some new pack, they are isolated and they want to be reunited with their former pack.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yes, I am referring to Jon/Sansa possible marriage. Interestingly, the idea is somewhat repulsive, but I see GRRM can go with it. Why? Well, first, we don`t have any interaction between the two of them. In their POVs at the beginning, Jon talked to Bran, Arya, Ned, Robb, with everyone but Sansa. He is so close to Arya, and yet we haven`t seen him saying Sansa goodbye or goodluck at least. Then, we have their personnalities. People unite Jon and Dany, but Jon and Sansa have so much in common on deep, very intimate level. Third, they are cousins. This is problematic, given the fact that Old Gods are not fond of incest, and not to mention they were raised as brother and sister, they see each other as brother and sister. ot mentioning that Sansa is in love with Sandor, and Jon has some feelings for Val. Even more interestingly, how would Northern lords look upon it? Will they support the idea, given that Sansa is in succession line for Riverrun and Riverlands, through her blood relation with SR, can bring Vale to the fold? Or they would be against it?

Funny, as much as I hate the idea, I can`t deny there is a room for their marriage to actually happen.

I was thinking that, through the direwolves, there are some clues of a possible Jon/Arya marriage. I don't particularly like the logic behind it, and not because of the "incest" but for the male-female hierarchy thing. Anyway, Martin will do whatever he likes and I will be glad to read whatever he gives us since it will be well written as everything so far...

My thought was that (1) some of the direwolves have already established an order between them. Nymeria has been submissive to Ghost from the beginning (and Summer has beaten Shaggy to submission).

(2) Nymeria is now a leader of a great pack and we have been told that she kills any male who attempts to mount her. I translate this behavior of hers as a way to defend her leadership. I think that accepting a male, automatically makes him the alfa, and relegates her role in the pack.

Connecting these two, it seems to me that Nymeria would only accept Ghost and I think it is possible that Martin could use the direwolves to forshadow the future of their human counterparts. But if we use the direwolf and the pack symbolism for this, then inevitably we have a male as the leader - this is the way of the wolves - which bothers me a little, as it gives the girls a well defined, traditional and, in some ways, secondary role.

Also, on a similar note, I think it is interesting that Martin has eliminated the possibility of challenge/conflict among the direwolves. The has killed the one of the only two females and the one of the two biggest males... so that the remaining wolves can fit "naturally" into their pack roles?

[Mladen]

My thought was that (1) some of the direwolves have already established an order between them. Nymeria has been submissive to Ghost from the beginning (and Summer has beaten Shaggy to submission).

(2) Nymeria is now a leader of a great pack and we have been told that she kills any male who attempts to mount her. I translate this behavior of hers as a way to defend her leadership. I think that accepting a male, automatically makes him the alfa, and relegates her role in the pack.

My opinion is different here. I believe that this is foreshadowing Arya`s growth without men. Something like she is renouncing all men, and the submissive female role women have in Westeros.

Also, on a similar note, I think it is interesting that Martin has eliminated the possibility of challenge/conflict among the direwolves. The has killed the one of the only two females and the one of the two biggest males... so that the remaining wolves can fit "naturally" into their pack roles?

I would say that we`ll see some competition between direwolves, both Starks and their wolves. It won`t mead to anyone`s death, it won`t be hatred like with Lannisters, or Dance with dragons, but I believe we`ll see them confronting each other at some point.

And lastly, as much as I don`t like `incest` between Sansa and Jon, I totally hate the idea of Jon/Arya incest. It would be a lot weirder for the last pair.

[Lion of Judah]

I only had the chance to read the Wolf's Psychology and Behavior essay, very good work and I love how you tied it all together. I'm excited for the breakdown and essays on lions since they are of personal significance and very symbolic to me and my family.

[Alia of the knife]

This is just an awesome thread, and with a lot of great information, especially as the Stark haters usually like to reference the "wolfs blood" only as a means to condemn them. Thanks for your hard work and time to compile this. The other thing I would point out is quite rightly different cultures view and imprint upon them their own perceptions. For the European, the wolf is a creature to fear because they were largely city/state/village dwellers with and an agrarian culture, and the loss of livestock to the wolves who preyed upon them influenced their opinions. We see the same amongst ranchers in North America, but by and large, the Northern Native American population who looked to nature as their guide and reference due to their nomadic existence, revered the wolf for it's social hierarchy, family, and protective nature, and looked to them as symbols of provision. I personally love the wolf, and as you stated, they are great survivors. We were in North Carolina many years ago on vacation, staying on a reservation to walk the same trail as was depicted in "The Last of the Mohicans," but when we were leaving, driving away, I looked over and saw a wolf happily eating out of a dumpster. I had to do a double-take. I am from a mountainous place, but had never seen a live wolf, so yes, they definitely adapt and are excellent survivors. Hopefully, with this kind of awareness, the wolf population will rise again. Apologies for the run-on sentences, but the "enter" function does not appear to be working. :bang:

[Morienthar]

I think Jon will always remain the lone White dire wolf in his band of black wolves.

If R+L=J is proven and Sansa can overcome the mental picture of him as a half brother,she'd be able to accept it I guess,But I don't think Jon would be able to....

As for Arya she's the little sis,I just don't see that happening.

[Mladen]

I only had the chance to read the Wolf's Psychology and Behavior essay, very good work and I love how you tied it all together. I'm excited for the breakdown and essays on lions since they are of personal significance and very symbolic to me and my family.

I am so pleased to hear you like it, Lion of Judah. I hope you`ll have time to read the rest and give me your opinion about it. As for Lions thread, well research material has been piling up for quite some time, but I believe in a week or two, I `ll be done and ready to post.

This is just an awesome thread, and with a lot of great information, especially as the Stark haters usually like to reference the "wolfs blood" only as a means to condemn them. Thanks for your hard work and time to compile this. The other thing I would point out is quite rightly different cultures view and imprint upon them their own perceptions. For the European, the wolf is a creature to fear because they were largely city/state/village dwellers with and an agrarian culture, and the loss of livestock to the wolves who preyed upon them influenced their opinions. We see the same amongst ranchers in North America, but by and large, the Northern Native American population who looked to nature as their guide and reference due to their nomadic existence, revered the wolf for it's social hierarchy, family, and protective nature, and looked to them as symbols of provision. I personally love the wolf, and as you stated, they are great survivors. We were in North Carolina many years ago on vacation, staying on a reservation to walk the same trail as was depicted in "The Last of the Mohicans," but when we were leaving, driving away, I looked over and saw a wolf happily eating out of a dumpster. I had to do a double-take. I am from a mountainous place, but had never seen a live wolf, so yes, they definitely adapt and are excellent survivors. Hopefully, with this kind of awareness, the wolf population will rise again. Apologies for the run-on sentences, but the "enter" function does not appear to be working. :bang:

Alia, this was wonderful story. And I couldn`t agree more. There are cultural stereotypes that shape our perspective on animals. I was both interested in animal nature and its parallels with human behavior and the difference between men and wolves. And what I found out is that we are not that different. We just happen to be on 2 opposite sides. But, understanding is the first step for acceptance. And I truly believe that men, as the most advanced species on Earth, should learn how to accept and embrace others.

[Manderlay]

Since this is about wolves, i once saw on animal planet, some people blaming the wolves for their hunting practice, they said wolves sometimes just kill and leave the prey untouched and do not necessarily hunt for food, rather they just kill and let the meat go to waste, does anyone know if this is true? because i think animal planet was trying to educate on common misconceptions about wolves, i don't think wolves kill for sport unless it is for educating their young. the wolf has been portrayed as malevolent throughout history and in mythology, that led to the near extinction of wolves in my country and across the world.

[Manderlay]

- Does he isolate himself of his own free will?

- Is he isolated because he is stigmatized by the rest of the pack?

it was very interesting what you said, but i believe that Jon does make the choice to isolate himself, when he decided to take the black, he realizes that he has no place at winterfell, although his siblings (except perhaps Sansa) never consider him anything else than an older brother, they even look up to him, they do know the reality that Jon is bastard but they also choose to ignore when they can (except perhaps Sansa and Rickon is too young to understand), i think Jon fits into the lone wolf.

Excellent catch on how the stark siblings make their own packs, however i believe that stark siblings including Jon have to reunite and they are of the North and belong in the North not anywhere else, sure one day sansa and even arya might form their own packs, meaning have kids of their own, but their bonds will still remain strong.

[Morienthar]

Since this is about wolves, i once saw on animal planet, some people blaming the wolves for their hunting practice, they said wolves sometimes just kill and leave the prey untouched and do not necessarily hunt for food, rather they just kill and let the meat go to waste, does anyone know if this is true? because i think animal planet was trying to educate on common misconceptions about wolves, i don't think wolves kill for sport unless it is for educating their young. the wolf has been portrayed as malevolent throughout history and in mythology, that led to the near extinction of wolves in my country and across the world.

There is no real evidence that wolves hunt for sport,though they do sometimes kill such large prey that they can't actually consume the entire animal.

[Winterfellian]

it was very interesting what you said, but i believe that Jon does make the choice to isolate himself, when he decided to take the black, he realizes that he has no place at winterfell, although his siblings (except perhaps Sansa) never consider him anything else than an older brother, they even look up to him, they do know the reality that Jon is bastard but they also choose to ignore when they can (except perhaps Sansa and Rickon is too young to understand), i think Jon fits into the lone wolf.

The thing is that I don't believe Jon was looking for isolation when he joined the NW. His early decision to go was about going somewhere where he could prove himself. It was about finding a place where he could be one amongst equals, and where he could rise unhinged by his bastard status. Later it became a choice of new family (his new brothers at the NW) and the family he left behind- exemplified in my opinion by the scene where he's debating whether to stay or go right at the kingsroad the night before he took his vows-, until finally the conflict evolve into one of duty vs family.

All in all I don't think Jon voluntarily seeks for solitude, he just shoulders it rather well when he has to. In ADWD we see how solitude has become his armor and he hates it! He accepts it as a way to cope with the burdens of leadership, but in reality he longs for being able to sit at the table with his friends like in the past days and regrets not being able to do so. This is why I feel Jon solitude doesn't comes naturally, but rather as a product of circumstances.

[Manderlay]

The thing is that I don't believe Jon was looking for isolation when he joined the NW. His early decision to go was about going somewhere where he could prove himself. It was about finding a place where he could be one amongst equals, and where he could rise unhinged by his bastard status. Later it became a choice of new family (his new brothers at the NW) and the family he left behind- exemplified in my opinion by the scene where he’s debating whether to stay or go right at the kingsroad the night before he took his vows-, until finally the conflict evolve into one of duty vs family.

All in all I don't think Jon voluntarily seeks for solitude, he just shoulders it rather well when he has to. In ADWD we see how solitude has become his armor and he hates it! He accepts it as a way to cope with the burdens of leadership, but in reality he longs for being able to sit at the table with his friends like in the past days and regrets not being able to do so. This is why I feel Jon solitude doesn't comes naturally, but rather as a product of circumstances.

I agree completely, Jon is not exactly a lone wolf but what I meant was he does display the traits of a lone wolf, which also fits him, you are right about Jon not voluntarily seeking solitude, as you said that it is also a product of circumstances, we still can compare him as a lone wolf though not because of his own choices, this becomes more prominent when he returns to the wall escaping the Thenns and when he becomes LC.

btw I enjoyed reading your posts in Jon Snow re read project as well, sorry I am mentioning it here, I should have in the other thread

[Mladen]

The thing is that I don't believe Jon was looking for isolation when he joined the NW. His early decision to go was about going somewhere where he could prove himself. It was about finding a place where he could be one amongst equals, and where he could rise unhinged by his bastard status. Later it became a choice of new family (his new brothers at the NW) and the family he left behind- exemplified in my opinion by the scene where he’s debating whether to stay or go right at the kingsroad the night before he took his vows-, until finally the conflict evolve into one of duty vs family.

All in all I don't think Jon voluntarily seeks for solitude, he just shoulders it rather well when he has to. In ADWD we see how solitude has become his armor and he hates it! He accepts it as a way to cope with the burdens of leadership, but in reality he longs for being able to sit at the table with his friends like in the past days and regrets not being able to do so. This is why I feel Jon solitude doesn't comes naturally, but rather as a product of circumstances.

Since I can`t have the same talk on 2 places, I`d like to hear your opinion on my latest reply on Jon reread thread. Here`s link:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84553-the-jon-snow-reread-project/page__st__240#entry4428103

It`s about Jon, and NW, and the family sentiment in him.

As for your post, brilliantly insightful as always, Winterfellian.

btw I enjoyed reading your posts in Jon Snow re read project as well, sorry I am mentioning it here, I should have in the other thread

Don`t be sorry. Winterfellian should be praised anywhere. I love her posts too.

[Mladen]

Since this is my 3000th post!!! I wanted to share a bit early, a new project that will start in couple of weeks. After the Opening project of this thread, I have contacted many of my dear friends, and respected members of this community in order to help me tackle my new project, and I am glad to say that some of them honored me and this thread by donating their precious time. So, it is my honor to present you,

WOLVES OF WESTEROS PROJECT

The project will go in three directions. In first, we are going to write about wolf theme in individual Stark kids, as also Ned and his siblings. The second part will deal with variety of wolf mythology, and the third part will be about parallels in literature, art and modern culture

1.

Starks of Winterfell – Wolves of Westeros

a. Ned Stark – quiet wolf

b. Robb Stark – young wolf

- Manderlay

c. Jon Snow – unique wolf

–

butterbumps!

d. Sansa Stark – tame she-wolf

- Mladen

e. Arya Stark – wild she-wolf -

ARYa_Nym

f. Bran Stark – winged wolf

- just an Other

g. Rickon Stark – feral child

h. Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna – wolf pack

While dealing with each individual of Stark family, it`s also important to talk about parallels and unions between them.

i. Brandon and Ned – contrast between 2 wolves

j. Lyanna and Ned`s daughters – the motif of she-wolves, and two sides of Lyanna embodied in Sansa and Arya

- Mladen

k. Jon and Robb – parallels and differences between brothers, lords and Kings

l. Sansa/Jon – siblings, cousin or something more? –

Mladen/Ragnorak

m. Stark children – how strong are the wolf traits in each one of them, their loyalty and love towards each other.

2.

Wolf mythology

a. Wolf in Ancient Greece and Rome, with accent on Romulus and Remus myth -

Lykos

b. Wolf in Norse mythology, Fenrir myth at the first place. -

Lykos

c. Wolf in American Indian mythology –

Blisscraft

d. Wolf in Hindu mythology -

Manderlay

e. Wolf in Balkan mythology

- Mladen

f. Christian view on wolves, with references from Bible

g. Wolf in Muslim world

h. Werewolf myth

3.

Wolf in literature, art and modern culture

a. The wolf in fairytales, the motif of Big bad wolf in Aesop`s fables and Brother Grimm`s fairytale -

Winterfellian

b. Wolf on paintings and sculptures throughout the centuries –

butterbumps!

c. Modern day wolf and wolf myth in music, TV and movies

[Mladen]

I would now use this opportunity to invite all of you who are interested and who want to participate to freely PM me. As you can see, we still have open places and we would be honored and pleased by your help. Any suggestion, idea or help are mostly welcome.

[Morienthar]

As for as I know there isn't much on wolves in Hindu mythology apart from saying they have strong stomach's Bhima is called Vrikodara several times in the Mahabharata.

[Mladen]

As for as I know there isn't much on wolves in Hindu mythology apart from saying they have strong stomach's Bhima is called Vrikodara several times in the Mahabharata.

I am not expert there, so I am not the right person to answer on that question. Our contributor Manderlay is the person to talk with.

[Alia of the knife]

I am not expert there, so I am not the right person to answer on that question. Our contributor Manderlay is the person to talk with.

As I said, I really love the work you did, especially as I'm an animal lover.

I wonder about the Dragons, which the closest reality to that are reptiles. I had read where reptiles are more matriarchal, though mammals are more familial, but if the totem of the Targaryens are dragons, and they are matriarchal, how far off the mark might it be that the female Targaryens have to be the ones to hatch the dragons?

[Mini Ghost]

Since this is my 3000th post!!! I wanted to share a bit early, a new project that will start in couple of weeks. After the Opening project of this thread, I have contacted many of my dear friends, and respected members of this community in order to help me tackle my new project, and I am glad to say that some of them honored me and this thread by donating their precious time. So, it is my honor to present you,

WOLVES OF WESTEROS PROJECT

The project will go in three directions. In first, we are going to write about wolf theme in individual Stark kids, as also Ned and his siblings. The second part will deal with variety of wolf mythology, and the third part will be about parallels in literature, art and modern culture

1.

Starks of Winterfell – Wolves of Westeros

a. Ned Stark – quiet wolf

b. Robb Stark – young wolf

- Manderlay

c. Jon Snow – unique wolf –

butterbumps!

d. Sansa Stark – tame she-wolf

- Mladen

e. Arya Stark – wild she-wolf

f. Bran Stark – winged wolf

g. Rickon Stark – feral child

h. Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna – wolf pack

While dealing with each individual of Stark family, it`s also important to talk about parallels and unions between them.

i. Brandon and Ned – contrast between 2 wolves

j. Lyanna and Ned`s daughters – the motif of she-wolves, and two sides of Lyanna embodied in Sansa and Arya

- Mladen

k. Jon and Robb – parallels and differences between brothers, lords and Kings

l. Sansa/Jon – possible incest among the wolves. Is it possible, and would it work? –

Mladen/Ragnorak

m. Stark children – how strong are the wolf traits in each one of them, their loyalty and love towards each other.

2.

Wolf mythology

a. Wolf in Ancient Greece and Rome, with accent on Romulus and Remus myth -

Lykos

b. Wolf in Norse mythology, Fenrir myth at the first place. -

Lykos

c. Wolf in American Indian mythology –

Ragnorak/Blisscraft

d. Wolf in Hindu mythology -

Manderlay

e. Wolf in Balkan mythology

- Mladen

f. Christian view on wolves, with references from Bible

g. Wolf in Muslim world

h. Werewolf myth

3.

Wolf in literature, art and modern culture

a. The wolf in fairytales, the motif of Big bad wolf in Aesop`s fables and Brother Grimm`s fairytale -

Winterfellian

b. Wolf on paintings and sculptures throughout the centuries –

butterbumps!

c. Modern day wolf and wolf myth in music, TV and movies – C

aro99

Can't wait to read this project :D