Ice and Fire animal project: Wolves

[Olligarchy]

Impressive. I will be following you since one of my Houses in the RPG happens to have a wolf for their symbol. This will help with the research.

[Lord Reaver]

Your information on pack structure is outdated and largely stems from studies done on "packs" of captive wolves in the early 20th century.

In nature, packs are usually family units, where the "alpha" position is simply that of the breeding pair, while the rest of the pack consists of their offspring from the last few years.

While larger packs may arise, particularly during time when large prey is abundant, it is not clear that these follow the alpha-beta-omega structure traditionally described.

See e.g: http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/alpst.htm for reference.

[The Sleeper]

Your information on pack structure is outdated and largely stems from studies done on "packs" of captive wolves in the early 20th century.

In nature, packs are usually family units, where the "alpha" position is simply that of the breeding pair, while the rest of the pack consists of their offspring from the last few years.

While larger packs may arise, particularly during time when large prey is abundant, it is not clear that these follow the alpha-beta-omega structure traditionally described.

See e.g: http://www.npwrc.usg...lstat/alpst.htm for reference.

Intersting read. However, regardless of its accuracy, the alpha model is entrenched among non-specialists (who include the majority of readers, GRRM and me). Summer imposing himself over packs and fighting with Shaggy over food indicates that Maritn has adopted this model for his imagined wolves.

[Mladen]

Your information on pack structure is outdated and largely stems from studies done on "packs" of captive wolves in the early 20th century.

In nature, packs are usually family units, where the "alpha" position is simply that of the breeding pair, while the rest of the pack consists of their offspring from the last few years.

While larger packs may arise, particularly during time when large prey is abundant, it is not clear that these follow the alpha-beta-omega structure traditionally described.

See e.g: http://www.npwrc.usg...lstat/alpst.htm for reference.

Intersting read. However, regardless of its accuracy, the alpha model is entrenched among non-specialists (who include the majority of readers, GRRM and me). Summer imposing himself over packs and fighting with Shaggy over food indicates that Maritn has adopted this model for his imagined wolves.

As I cleared out at the beginning, I am not animal expert, my credentials are in different area of science. I did my best in researching, but I will be the first to admit there are a lot more to be told. This is not about 100 % scientific truth, and like Just an Other pointed out, this is done from non-specialists POV.

[Lord Reaver]

Yes, but anyone with a scientific approach must be open for a revision of their stance given additional information.

Also, the part I am "correcting" is the "wolf's psychology and behavior" part. It would seem to me that this part ought to reflect the most up-to-date information on this subject, while leaving such considerations as what is entrenched and used by authors to the "wolves in literature" part.

[King of Winters]

Great topic and great read. The comparisons to the Druid pack in Yellowstone and Wolves and men and Direwolves was great. I also liked the comparisons with each of the Starks role as a wolf pack.

If you do do more I'll look forward to reading them.

[Lykos]

Mladen, this is an awesome effort it intersects with a project I wanted to stard for a while now. I have to mull this over.

<snip>

This is a very interesting link, I think you should post it at the "Howl at the Moon" thread, if you don´t I will take it there later anyway. :)

Here are some clips for wolf lovers.

from the eighties which made me love wolves, more than I did already and an interview with Hélène Grimaud explaining the Wolf Conservation Center.

Keep howling.

ETA: Name correction and another

on Hélène (in german).

[jons nissa]

this is an amazing essay! i particularly like what you wrote about grrm creating a new mythology about the wolves/direwolves and mixes the reality of wolves with the fantasy of wolves. great work. he doesn't really seem to do this with any other house's familiar strengthening the case that the starks are the "heroes" of the series. although he discusses dragons a great deal, they are not handled as the direwolves are by grrm and haven't truly made any supernatural link with danaerys or been given a personality.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I am amazed by the amount of work and research that has been dedicated in this topic. What can I say... congratulations!!!

What I particularly like about ASOIAF animals is that they are (almost) just animals. As it is wonderfully pointed out, they kill to eat / defend themselves. Even the dragons, when they are uncontrolled, don't kill more than they have to feed. They become real monsters when they are controlled by humans and used as weapons. It's a unique human trait to torture and kill as punishement / making a point / amusement etc... It's so wrong to call "beast" a human that commits attrocities.

Since I am only a little girl (I wish...) and I know very little about the ways of animals, I will take as the undisputed truth everything GRRM shows us about them. So, for me, the most interesting part is the wolves in literature, both as animals - direwolves and as a family (and its individual members) - Starks.

One thing I have noticed is that Robb, Jon and Bran all have a quote "I am a man, not a wolf" or similar. Contrary to this, Arya has this line "I'm not a lady, Arya wanted to tell her, I'm a wolf". Nymeria is also the least domesticated / controlled wolf so I think both of them can be the most authentic examble of "wolves" and wolves in Martin's world.

[Mladen]

Yes, but anyone with a scientific approach must be open for a revision of their stance given additional information.

Also, the part I am "correcting" is the "wolf's psychology and behavior" part. It would seem to me that this part ought to reflect the most up-to-date information on this subject, while leaving such considerations as what is entrenched and used by authors to the "wolves in literature" part.

No, you are right, and I am glad people have come up with new resource material. I used David Mech`s books and also many scientific articles on the topic. I understand that datas could be outdated, but I worked with what I had. Also, we should never forget that GRRM started writing ASOIAF in the 90s, or even before. So, his knowledge, and parallels in the first three books wouldn`t be that up-to-date

Great topic and great read. The comparisons to the Druid pack in Yellowstone and Wolves and men and Direwolves was great. I also liked the comparisons with each of the Starks role as a wolf pack.

If you do do more I'll look forward to reading them.

Thanks. I am glad you found it interesting. I`ll be working more on this subject, and we also have a lot to tell about individual wolf`s traits in Stark kids

What I particularly like about ASOIAF animals is that they are (almost) just animals. As it is wonderfully pointed out, they kill to eat / defend themselves. Even the dragons, when they are uncontrolled, don't kill more than they have to feed. They become real monsters when they are controlled by humans and used as weapons. It's a unique human trait to torture and kill as punishement / making a point / amusement etc... It's so wrong to call "beast" a human that commits attrocities.

This was my point. Animals are just that, animals. They are not given some supernatural powers like Hedwig in HP, or Shadofax in LOTR. Also, I strongly believe that it is our mind that commits attrocities, not our impulses. To do something horrifying, you need to think deep about it, not to act on impuls - like RW, for instance

[Manderlay]

Throughout thousands of years of evolution, wolves have developed solid structure in order to survive. As the cruel evolutionary laws have dictated, those weak and inadaptable perished into oblivion. And the same principle works here. Each Stark is positioned accordingly to his/hers abilities. Sansa stayed at court, while Arya ran away. Both girls would die if it was vice versa. Jon was fighting the Others and protecting the Realm, while Robb was fighting the futile civil war. Bran was at the cave of CotF, while Rickon is on Skagos. Each of them was positioned on places of great danger and they had to adapt in order to survive. Sansa learnt how to lie, Arya how to fight, Bran to warg, Jon to lead. Each of them had to change so they would survive. Because when you don`t change when you have to, when you don`t adapt, you die. And no one knows it better than Stark children. They learnt that lesson from the deaths of their family member.

Enjoyed reading Anatomy of wolves, again a good post and I liked how you made astute comparisons of the wolves near-sightedness and colour blindness to Ned, Sansa and Robb. Yes, wolves can survive harsh weather and have the ability to survive, something which we have seen all the stark children do, however their greatest strength is staying in a pack, a close knit family so as to say, would be great to see all the wolves back together. Pointing out their abilities and how they are positioned was interesting, true Sansa could not run, that is not her strength whereas Arya cant stay at court, her strength is to run wild and free, that was the best part I liked.

The Stark children and Jon have adapted, survived, learnt harsh lessons and suffered losses in the family. The wolves will return.

[Mladen]

Enjoyed reading Anatomy of wolves, again a good post and I liked how you made astute comparisons of the wolves near-sightedness and colour blindness to Ned, Sansa and Robb. Yes, wolves can survive harsh weather and have the ability to survive, something which we have seen all the stark children do, however their greatest strength is staying in a pack, a close knit family so as to say, would be great to see all the wolves back together. Pointing out their abilities and how they are positioned was interesting, true Sansa could not run, that is not her strength whereas Arya cant stay at court, her strength is to run wild and free, that was the best part I liked.

The Stark children and Jon have adapted, survived, learnt harsh lessons and suffered losses in the family. The wolves will return.

Mandarlay, I am so happy people like that color-blindness parallel. For me, it was just great inspiration and wonderful observation. And with wolves everything is adapt or die. That`s why they are great fighters, that`s why they are so resillient. Evolution made them that way.

FMOW, your comment made me speechless :blushing:. Thank you very much.

[Mini Ghost]

You are a part wolf ser!

I will need a reread to digest everything :bowdown:

[Mladen]

Guys, I would like to share something with you. It`s the thread I have found just recently, and I was directed to it by its creator, the wonderful artist, and long-esteemed member of our community, sticks. The author of the thread is genuinly great artist and I would like all of you to see his work.

The Stag and the Dragon

The piece I am most interested is Jon and Ghost artwork, for it is very sophisticated, artistically intelligent piece and it wonderfully can be related to this thread. I hope you are all going to support sticks. For he surely deserves so.

[Manderlay]

Sansa, on the other hand, is not the proper wolf. She is very much lady-like. But if you look deeper, under the beautiful exteriority, you will find something strong and unique. From time to time, she reminds us who she is. Her love for family hasn`t diminished for a second, her sadness is without tears in public. Just like wolves who usually don`t cry in public, but are able for tears, Sansa wears her grief silently in herself. Her nice and shiny wolf moment was definitely the moment when she refused to bend the knee to Tyrion on their wedding. With that act, she did what she-wolves do when they don`t want to mate, she hadn`t bowed. Sansa knew how hurtful it was to Tyrion, but she had no regards. She was cold and determined to show that this isn`t her will. But Sansa`s wolf behavior continues in Eyrie where she basically adopts Sweetrobin. She-wolves are known to be kind and gentle to young pups, and are known for strong maternal instincts.

Again nice post, I think that at Winterfell and KL Sansa was the omega wolf and Arya was a true beta, however we have seen Sansa develop and grow into a beta wolf with her experiences at KL, Bran I can compare to a beta as well as he took care of Rickon in winterfell when everyone had left, I agree that sansa basically adopts Sweet Robin but knows him to be weak, which means her maternal instincts will drive her to protect Sweet Robin, and I also have a feeling that we might see Sansa develop into an alpha in tWoW.

[Mladen]

Again nice post, I think that at Winterfell and KL Sansa was the omega wolf and Arya was a true beta, however we have seen Sansa develop and grow into a beta wolf with her experiences at KL, Bran I can compare to a beta as well as he took care of Rickon in winterfell when everyone had left, I agree that sansa basically adopts Sweet Robin but knows him to be weak, which means her maternal instincts will drive her to protect Sweet Robin, and I also have a feeling that we might see Sansa develop into an alpha in tWoW.

Sansa was the omega given her status in KL, importance to Robb, but in Sansa/Arya corelation at the beginning she was alpha. She got the main prize - Joffrey (I know how it sounds), and Arya had to dance with Tommen. But, the two of them gives extrordinary look upon variety of female wolf characteristics. While Arya represent fierce, wild nature, Sansa represents most deep emotional side of she-wolf. Both of them, together sublimes wonderfully in Lyanna. We find Arya in Lyanna`s strong personality and physical strength, while Sansa can be found in Lyanna`s most deep emotions. All three of them are she-wolves only in different parts. Lyanna got it all, and Arya and Sansa are half-way to it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

A bit of a problem assigning wolf hierarchy roles to the girls.

In the Wolf`s Psychology and Behavior part of the essay, alfa female is defined as follows:

Alpha female is chosen among female wolves by alpha male during mating period.

In Winterfell they were both pups. Since then, they grow up separated and none of them is part of a wolf pack to assume a role.

Their roles in Winterfell are assigned to them by more "human" and less "wolfish" criteria. By those, Sansa fits the alfa but Arya is more of the "lone wolf", as she neither accepts the beta role, nor tries to challenge the alfa (I could never immagine her trying to "seduce" Joffrey!!! :) )

Nymeria, mirroring Arya, has challenged for, and taken, the alfa male role in her pack.

[Mladen]

A bit of a problem assigning wolf hierarchy roles to the girls.

In the Wolf`s Psychology and Behavior part of the essay, alfa female is defined as follows:

Alpha female is chosen among female wolves by alpha male during mating period.

In Winterfell they were both pups. Since then, they grow up separated and none of them is part of a wolf pack to assume a role.

Their roles in Winterfell are assigned to them by more "human" and less "wolfish" criteria. By those, Sansa fits the alfa but Arya is more of the "lone wolf", as she neither accepts the beta role, nor tries to challenge the alfa (I could never immagine her trying to "seduce" Joffrey!!! :) )

Nymeria, mirroring Arya, has challenged for, and taken, the alfa male role in her pack.

Wonderful catch, ShadowCat Rivers. Yes, I assume you have a point, only these female roles were assigned by men, and I agree it`s more human than wolfish criteria. But, with Starks, the line between wolfish and human criteria is oftenly blurry. I would say in that situation, Sansa was alpha female, but the girls are equal in the eyes of the men of their family.

Also, about Sansa, there`s a great story in Druid pack, when daughter of wolf alpha male, fell in love with a lone wolf, Casanova (uyeap, they called him that). Although her parents, especially her father, were against relationship, they couldn`t change her mind, and ultimately she ended up with Casanova. This story reminds me a lot of Sansa in aGOT, when she defies Ned about Joffrey.

[bbstark]

Amazing thread still making my way through it (I started with #3, forgive me, but the reason was personal interest :D)

I would like to raise a question for possible discussion, regarding the wolf's connection to humankind. You mention that in literature the wolf is neither kind, nor loyal, and in your 5th essay you mention

Man has won the war against the wolves.

(cheeky :) )

I wonder though if that's all there is to it? As historical, allegorical enemies we paint the wolf as the antagonist, but why then are there remnants of the wolf present in our names?

If you go here you'll notice the cultures that use "wolf" in their names, primarily Germanic, Scandinavian, Irish and Serbian )

My personal favorites are Wolfgang (path of the wolf) and Wolfram (wolf + raven, now I'm amazed Martin hasn't used that yet :D ). The name Rudolf comes from fame+wolf, is very popular, and has even been the name of some European kings.

However I think the vast prevelance of the names meaning wolf, must mean that humanity does see something of virtue in the wolf, that it aspires to, or is proud to carry, in spite of all our antagonistic stories. Is it the wolf's pack mentality and loyalty that speaks to us, on a more primal level? Or is it perhaps his tenacity, manifesting himself as a formidable enemy to all who challenge him?

I also believe that people who are keenly aware of the meaning of their name, don't handle it lightly, and in fact reflect on that meaning at the cusp of difficult choices. Martin definitely emphasizes this human quality in his characters, consider the Young Wolf; his decisions are deeply rooted in him "being the Young Wolf". His actions appear to reflect his "young wolf" characteristic (meaning the label comes after the decision), where in fact (In spite of us not having a Robb POV) I'd argue the "young wolf" preceeds the decision. Robb is aware of the additional title to his name, and aspires not only to live up to it, but to not stray from it.

And the tiniest addition, I wonder if Arnolf Karstark, is meant to be a "wolf pretender" (Arnulf meaning Wolf+eagle). He is a cadet branch of House Stark, and by owning a wolfish name, perhaps was striving to achieve above his station? Making himself an alpha instead of beta, as you put it?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Wow MLaden!!

So much work!! Incredible thread and I love to read and write about the animals.

I didn't get a chance to read everything yet. But offhand I think you're descriptions of the wolf characteristics in the Stark family are spot on. And If I may say something without any feminism (since I am a girl), but it just happens to be my opinion that the strongest seem to be the she-wolves. Meaning the Females, although this idea is not supported by the fact that Lady died so early and Sansa sang her little song to the Lannisters in GOT, but apart from that Arya and her aunt Lyanna seem to be made of incredibly stout stuff. i think this is backed up by the fact that Jon Snow has soooo much wolf in him and, arguably, the smartest/strongest direwolf. When, in fact, his father is not Ned Stark like the rest of the pack, his connection to the 'Wolf' comes through his badass mother, Lyanna, who IMO seems to be a beautiful version of Arya. It is just something that is very interesting to me. bran has his powers and he is special like none of the others. But it is not a natural ability, meaning he has had coaches, Jojen and now the infamously talented and shrewed Brynden Rivers, so while he is very powerful he has had a lot of help and training along the way. But Jon Snow has had practically no training and his connection with Ghost is so strong and Ghost is so smart. But he is not a sibling he is a cousin, son of Lyanna which is where all his Stark 'power' comes from. I find this very interesting because We don't know much about Lyanna and she has not had even one contributing day in the raising of Jon Snow, but it seems like he got sooooo much from her, and his Wolf-connection seems all the more stronger because she is his mother.

It's hard to explain exactly, only that his connection to Ghost IMO seems slightly different than the other children's connections to their wolves, even Bran who is the most accomplished Warg still, again, IMO, seems to lack the closeness that Jon and Ghost have. And I just feel that all stems from Jon being Lyanna's kid and getting her 'Stark' powers instead of Ned's. I mean Ned raised him and a lot of his personality is that of Ned's other children. But he has a more special connection with the North and his wolf than the rest do, and for me this all comes from Lyanna.