Ice and Fire animal project: Wolves

[Isildur's Mane]

Thank you very much. I hope you`ll stay, read entire thing, and help us with comments and new insights.

I definitely hope so - at least, that is my aim. I haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like to over the past few weeks because of work, but that has died down again and I'm starting to catch up again.

The Wolves of Westeros Project

Starks of Winterfell – Wolves of Westeros

Robb Stark “The Young Wolf”

<SNIP>

Great essay, Manderlay, I really like your portrayal of a young boy being forced to take up his father's role and becoming the Alpha wolf. I always knew that Robb was young and inexperienced, but seeing all the quotes presented like that, shows just how young, green and inexperienced he is.

[Mladen]

Robb Stark “The Young Wolf”

snip

Manderlay, first allow me to congratulate you on beautifully written essay. This was insightful, very concise essay and I am very honored to have you among contributors. You have raised several points in your essay I would to concentrate now:

1. The journey from Young wolf to Alpha. Robb is a green boy at the beginning. He is seen like that by his parents, his siblings, his enemies and his bannermen. But, Robb showed each and every one of them that he is more than just that. He showed his father the determination to free him, his mother he showed his valor, strength and doubts that come with positions, his sibligs noticed the difference, his enemies finally met the real Robb and understood how different he is from other green boys and his bannermen found their leader. His inexperience shown at the beginning, most presentable in scene with Tyrion at GoT remained one of his major setbacks in entire War. But, Robb, despite his inexperience, understood that to be respected and followed, you need to demonstrate power, and he does that. First with GreatJon, that lead that Umber becomes his most trusted bannermen, and second with Karstark, that unfortunately led to his demise. But to become alpha, you need to have utter respect from the rest of the pack, and Robb didn`t have that. Boltons, Karstarks, Freys, Westerlings, they were all afraid more of lion than of wolf. And that`s where Robb as alpha failed. But where Robb thrived as alpha is in envoking loyalty in his men. As we know, entire North answered Robb`s call, even the Riverlords made him their King, and even after his death, he is not hated as man who brought them death, he is remembered as hero who were slain by traitors. As we heard from Manderlys, North remembers. And that`s where Robb had won his enemies.

2. Family vs Duty. Robb may look like his Tully mother, he maybe is part of Stark pack, but unfortunately, he never understood the power of family. In his calculations what do with Jaime, Robb completely disregarded his sisters, or at least his sister. He did what any commander, or King would do. This was rational behavior, but alas it wasn`t how wolf would normally react. In pack, alpha`s duty is to lead and protect, to guide and gather the pack. And Robb abandoned Sansa, leaving her to Cersei`s mercy, knowing she is alive and well only because he has Jaime. But forgetting Sansa was also one of his tragic mistake, and Tywin taught him that. By marrying Sansa to Tyrion, Tywin taught Robb that even little girl is valuable, and can be used. And when Robb found out about Sansa, he understood how foolish it was to forsake his family. Who knows what would happen if Robb behaved as classic wolf and not like man and King he was.

3. Ignoring the instincts. And this is the most tragic in his entire story. Robb`s wolf instincts embodied and showed through Greywind are forgotten due to grief over his brothers. Unlike wolf`s who always rely on their instincts, that undeniable ability to sense the danger and treason, Robb ignored it and paid it with his life. Strangely, his Tully mother warned him that he should always listen to his direwolf, but Robb`s detachment from his family, his grief and abandonment made him deaf for warnings of his wolf. And that`s when man won the wolf in Robb and what led him to his death.

Again, Manderlay, congratulations on great essay. It is really a privelege to have you as one of contributors.

[Alia of the knife]

The Wolves of Westeros Project

Starks of Winterfell – Wolves of Westeros

Robb Stark “The Young Wolf”

First welcome to everyone, it is my pleasure to present this essay in a great thread created by Mladen, which has certainly caught our attention and peeked our interests. The purpose is to discuss and depict the wolf theme in the Starks. GRRM couldn’t have picked a better animal for Stark Sigil, there are some astute comparisons we can make between the Starks and wolves, the purpose of this essay is to discuss the wolf theme in Robb Stark “the Young Wolf”. I am no expert in Wolf behaviour, however I have tried my best to present this essay, also English is not my first language, excuse any grammatical mistakes. I would like all of you to post your thoughts and point out any characteristics of Robb that I have missed, please feel free to correct me if I have gotten any details wrong.

To understand better, I am going to state some commonly known wolf facts, and other material which I have gathered from various sources;

The Wolves are extremely social animals and exist in a unit called pack, this pack is usually a family group made up of animals related to each other by blood and family ties of affection and mutual aid. The core of the pack is a mated pair of wolves, an adult male and female that have bred and produced young.

The young adult wolves have their own special roles under the leadership of their parents; however some studies have shown that the younger adult males also play the role of leaders for the pups and other wolves in the pack. The young adult wolves are able to assert their dominance over their siblings and other wolves in the pack. Dominant wolves in the pack usually are more aggressive and have more forceful personalities than other wolves in the pack.

So, in general a wolf’s behaviour is directed towards asserting its own status or showing that it accepts the higher status of another wolf, though wolves certainly don’t go around constantly trying to reaffirm their place in the dominance hierarchy.

Robb Stark can be compared to a Young Wolf; the story begins in Winterfell after the prologue, the alpha male or leader of the pack is certainly Eddard Stark at that time in the story, all his children look up to him. Robb takes on the role of Lord of Winterfell in absence of his parents, now the term young wolf applies to him even more so. Robb is doing his best to be the lord of Winterfell in the absence of his parents, Bran notices the changes in his brother, all three siblings at Winterfell Robb, Bran and Rickon miss their father and mother who are the core of the pack, Robb takes on the responsibility but he doesn’t have his father and mother and he wishes they were there for him to follow their lead, especially his father. The pack is a close knit family, and they are very social animals, the stark siblings are missing their parents who form the core of the pack and also their sisters and brother, Jon which indicates just how strong the bonds of family are, just like the wolves in a pack.

Despite Robb being a Young wolf, his siblings Bran, Arya and Rickon consider Jon as their leader; however Jon is a unique wolf, Jon recalls one time when Robb and Jon are playing, Jon calls himself Lord of Winterfell and Robb asserts his dominance and corrects him as to why he can’t be the Lord of Winterfell. Jon is an alpha in his own right but he is also a unique wolf, different from the other members of the pack and doesn’t challenge Robb, as he knows his place in the hierarchy of the pack.

To emphasize just how young Robb is I am going to give a few quotes; (all page references are from Harper Voyager Paperback edition, given below are the links to page table for other editions for convenience, as finding specific chapters in the book was a pain in the neck)

http://towerofthehan.../101/pages.html

http://awoiaf.wester..._Clash_of_Kings

Robb has taken on the responsibility of Lord of Winterfell in the absence of his father, as the story progresses will see Robb taking on the role of Alpha as well;

“Mother what you are doing” “Rickon needs you” “Mother I need you too. I am trying but I can’t … I can’t do it all by myself.” His voice broke with sudden emotion. Catelyn III Pages 123, 124 aGoT

Robb puts on a brave face in front of his men and whenever they are not alone, however he is still very much dependant on Catelyn. As I said earlier young wolves also look after the pups and their siblings in the pack, Robb does exactly that, when Catelyn is grief stricken, he takes cares of Rickon the best way he can, also he looks to the duties and responsibilities of Winterfell. We see Robb’s dependence on Catelyn in many circumstances;

“They are men, Robb, seasoned in battle. You were fighting with wooden swords less than a year past” She saw anger in his eyes at that, but it was gone as quick as it came, and suddenly he was a boy again. “Are you … sending me back to winterfell?”

“Mother, what are we going to do? I brought this whole army together, eighteen thousand men, but I don’t … I am not certain …” Catelyn VIII Page 580 aGoT

“My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord” “but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat”

“Gods I was so scared” … Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort. Bran VI Pages 555 and 556 aGoT

Robb shows the characteristics of an Alpha when he sets his wolf upon GreatJon Umber but also at the same time he reminds us that he still is a young green boy when he speaks with Bran. In Winterfell we see that Robb does what he can for his siblings, he takes Bran out in the wolf’s wood on Dancer, he lets Rickon play in the yard with Greywind and Shaggydog and Bran does notice the changes in Robb, there are several times when Bran refers to his brother as “Robb the Lord”. Again Robb is doing the best he can under the circumstances for his siblings, as I mentioned above, the Young adult wolves take on the role of leader and look after the pups and other wolves of the pack.

We see Robb displaying he has a good mind for warfare, but is ill suited for making pacts, alliances, he never considers a marriage alliance by himself, but it is his mother who makes the arrangements with Walder Frey in order to secure their passage on the river, this can be debated that Catelyn Stark herself suggested that she would deal with Walder Frey, however I still think Robb would have been ill suited for the task. Yet we see some maturity in Robb, when he graciously accepts the terms of the alliance with the Freys. Again we see how much the Young wolf is dependent on his mother who forms the core of the pack along with Ned.

The First mistake that Robb makes after he crosses the twins due to his inexperience is giving Roose Bolton the command of the host on foot, now this has nothing to do with the battle of the Green Fork or Roose Bolton’s loyalty at that time, Robb chooses him because he needs a banner man who can face Tywin Lannister and make the appropriate decisions, however if Ned had been leading the host in place of Robb, he would not have given the command to Bolton, Ned never trusted Roose Bolton and would have kept him close to keep an eye on him. I am pointing out the difference between the Young wolf and the Alpha wolf and showing Robb’s inexperience in choosing a man his father never trusted. As I stated above the parents form the core of the pack, Robb the young wolf still looks to his mother the core of the pack for answers and shows dependence on her when his banner men are not there to see. In this decision his mother points him to Roose Bolton.

I would also like to point out the astute comparisons Mladen made in “Anatomy of Wolves” The short sightedness can be compared to Robb’s inability to see far beyond his immediate concerns, and this is apparent when Robb realizes that he is winning battles but losing the war, his colour blindness makes him blind to Tyrells and Martells, he never even considers forming alliances until it is too late.

As we know the wolves are a close knit family, since Sansa is an hostage in KL and Arya is lost, Robb is torn between his duty to his new kingdom and his duty to his sisters, initially when Robb was not made the King in the North by his bannermen and Riverlords, Robb had hoped to trade Jamie Lannister for his Father and Sisters. However after the death of Eddard Stark and after Robb is crowned he takes on the responsibility of a king, he cannot afford to trade Jaime Lannister for his sisters, he has made the Journey from an young wolf to an Alpha, an Alpha has also to consider the rest of his pack, can he afford to set lose a dangerous lion, who won’t be fooled twice. With Jaime Lannister in the field, it would not bode well for the Starks, he is an excellent warrior and leads men easily as if he was born to it, two lions which are dangerous predators can pose a severe threat to the wolves, in light of that, fighting one Lion makes more sense. Even if Robb cares for his sisters, he cannot make peace with Lannisters on their terms, he tries to, but that was only to appease his Lady mother, his terms to lannisters were such that they wouldn’t be accepted. Robb has a thirst for vengeance for the Lannisters killing their father, no matter what happens Robb will avenge the death of his father, this also gets in the way when Robb dismisses his sisters exchange for Jaime Lannister. Robb is also hurt when Catelyn basically accuses him of not caring enough for his sisters. In a way Robb was also concerned on how his bannermen would view this, if he traded Jaime for his sisters, not all of them would follow the Young Wolf as they had. We know later what happens with Rickard Karstark.

“Cersei Lannister will never consent to trade your sisters for a pair of cousins. It’s her brother she’ll want, as you know full well” Catelyn I ACoK Page 102

“I can’t release the Kingslayer, not even if I wanted to, My lords would never abide it” “And can unmake me just as easy”

“I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for father but …” “… but not the girls? Girls are not important enough, are they?” Robb made no answer but there was hurt in his eyes. Catelyn I ACoK page 103

As the story progresses, Robb takes on the role of Alpha, this is more apparent when he is crowned King in the North, we also notice that Robb is no longer dependant on Catelyn as he used to be, In fact Robb on several occasions tries to get rid of his mother, either by sending her back to Winterfell, or the Twins or Seagard. As an Alpha, Robb will not depend on Catelyn anymore even if she forms the core of the pack, an Alpha won’t have its authority challenged, Robb also bristles when anyone call hims a boy, he takes out his anger on Edmure as well and Catelyn, Greywind growls and bares his teeth, as we know the connection between stark siblings and their respective direwolves is strong and sometimes the wolves convey the emotions of their masters.

“Mother are you certain you will not consent to go to the Twins” He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear. Catelyn I Page 104 ACoK, also look page 103

Robb certainly makes a mistake with his marriage to Jeyen Westerling, his honor got in the way, however we still see that Robb is young, he was vulnerable after the news of his brother’s death and took comfort in a woman whose house could best give him 100 swords. However this also points to his wolf traits, once an Alpha wolf mates with a female, it stays that way and Robb does exactly that, he marrys Jeyne Westerling.

“It’s swords you need, not gentle hearts. How could you do this Robb? How could you be so … so very … young” Catelyn II Page 207 ASoS Part 1 S&S

As the wolf pack is a close knit family so are the Starks, however they are scattered, as Robb believes Bran and Rickon are dead, he forms his own pack, we see Rollam and Ser Raynald take their place, as catelyn notices;

“They are standing in the boots of those he lost”, Rollam has taken Brans place and Raynald is part Theon and part Jon Snow. Catelyn IV page 502 ASoS Part 1 S&S

In fact we see all the stark siblings try to form or form a pack of their own, and their desire to return North and home. Throughout the story we see how the Stark siblings (including Jon) miss each other, long for their family and home, wolves are the same, when a wolf is separated from a pack it also longs for its pack. They must have a pack and that is what we see the Starks do when they are separated. The Stark story has always been a story of a family, their ties to each other, their loyalty and love is highlighted throughout the series and what better animal than a wolf to portray the bonds of a close knit family. We also see that not one member of the family is happy while they are separated; all the stark children have learnt harsh lessons and have learned to survive which is also one the great ways that GRRM has depicted the wolf theme in the Starks. As we know Wolves have been hunted to near extinction but still they have survived, they are able to take on challenges like harsh conditions and still find a way to adapt to the circumstances; all the stark children have shown these traits. This has led me to believe that one day the wolves shall return to their homes in the North.

Words can't express how fabulous this essay is.

In summation, I think you've pointed out all the reasons that Robb was doomed.

In going against what should have been his Alpha instincts and caring for his pack first, he was essentially brought down by other would-be "Alphas" from other "Packs" as well as a predator from a rival species, the lion.

Was he too cautious? Should his instincts have been more like his Uncle Brandon, though we know that Brandons own nature may have benefitted from a little more caution.

I think it's a good bet that a King Alpha in looking to his own Pack first, securing it's strength means that in the end, he takes care of his Kingdom as well.

It appears that Robb did neither.

I think it will be interesting to see what kind of King Jon makes, (assuming of course that Robb legitimized him), and how his own unique bloodline helps or hurts him as dragons are not mythically known to be family, or pack animals.

And I agree that the wolves will return.

[Manderlay]

Great essay, Manderlay, I really like your portrayal of a young boy being forced to take up his father's role and becoming the Alpha wolf.

2. Family vs Duty.Robb completely disregarded his sisters, or at least his sister. He did what any commander, or King would do. This was rational behavior, but alas it wasn`t how wolf would normally react. In pack, alpha`s duty is to lead and protect, to guide and gather the pack. And Robb abandoned Sansa, leaving her to Cersei`s mercy, knowing she is alive and well only because he has Jaime. But forgetting Sansa was also one of his tragic mistake, and Tywin taught him that. By marrying Sansa to Tyrion, Tywin taught Robb that even little girl is valuable, and can be used. And when Robb found out about Sansa, he understood how foolish it was to forsake his family. Who knows what would happen if Robb behaved as classic wolf and not like man and King he was.

Ignoring the instincts.

Thankyou Isildur and Mladen, i am very pleased that you liked the essay and enjoyed reading it :)

Mladen, i liked your PoV about Family vs Duty and also his detachment from his family and being deaf to his direwolf. i never thought of it that way, when i was thinking about Robb and his siters, I thought more of duty, yes he did not show the normal traits of a wolf with his dismissal to trade Jaime for his sisters. Also his ability to inspire loyalty in most of his lords was a great comparison with his leadership and Alpha wolf traits, even if some of the lords like Boltons, Freys and Westerlings were afraid of the lion, the rest loved him and stayed loyal. IMO Karstark was more driven by vengeance and anger, he was lost after he lost his sons, it was a different kind of betrayal, he was lost to honour something that Robb couldn't accept, here he shows just how much he is like Ned, a true alpha.

The scene you referred to between Tyrion and Robb was also astute, Robb shows his inexperience and lack of maturity.

[Manderlay]

Words can't express how fabulous this essay is.

In summation, I think you've pointed out all the reasons that Robb was doomed.

In going against what should have been his Alpha instincts and caring for his pack first, he was essentially brought down by other would-be "Alphas" from other "Packs" as well as a predator from a rival species, the lion.

Was he too cautious? Should his instincts have been more like his Uncle Brandon, though we know that Brandons own nature may have benefitted from a little more caution.

I think it's a good bet that a King Alpha in looking to his own Pack first, securing it's strength means that in the end, he takes care of his Kingdom as well.

It appears that Robb did neither.

I think it will be interesting to see what kind of King Jon makes, (assuming of course that Robb legitimized him), and how his own unique bloodline helps or hurts him as dragons are not mythically known to be family, or pack animals.

And I agree that the wolves will return.

Thankyou Alia, yes we can view it as a summation on Robb's doom, however he also shows great strength and leadership that cannot be rivalled by anyone else, I think he had to be cautious because he was at war with the most powerful house, and a man like Tywin Lannister, we don't know much about Brandon, but he would have been quick to act somewhat like Jaime, in some ways it can be helpful, and in some disastrous.

Jon I think despite his parentage, is more a wolf, he is unique, very different from the rest but also astoundingly similar to Ned, he was raised by Ned just like Robb and learnt the same lessons from his father, it would be interesting on how differently Jon would do things if he was King.

Very pleased that you liked the essay :)

[Mladen]

I think it will be interesting to see what kind of King Jon makes, (assuming of course that Robb legitimized him), and how his own unique bloodline helps or hurts him as dragons are not mythically known to be family, or pack animals.

I believe Jon feels stronger attachment to his family than Robb. It`s nothig bad, Robb also had entire Kingdom to take care of, but Jon showed that, just like Ned, he would always choose family, both time when he denied Stannis and made clear Sansa is heiress, and when he declared he would march on Winterfell. Robb denied Sansa what`s hers, but Jon, even knowing that feels incomfortable taking what`s not his. That speaks a lot about Jon as a pack member.

Mladen, i liked your PoV about Family vs Duty and also his detachment from his family and being deaf to his direwolf. i never thought of it that way, when i was thinking about Robb and his siters, I thought more of duty, yes he did not show the normal traits of a wolf with his dismissal to trade Jaime for his sisters. Also his ability to inspire loyalty in most of his lords was a great comparison with his leadership and Alpha wolf traits, even if some of the lords like Boltons, Freys and Westerlings were afraid of the lion, the rest loved him and stayed loyal. IMO Karstark was more driven by vengeance and anger, he was lost after he lost his sons, it was a different kind of betrayal, he was lost to honour something that Robb couldn't accept, here he shows just how much he is like Ned, a true alpha.

The thing with Boltons and Freys are just like Jaime said. You always have strong beta that will challenge alpha, and on first sign of weakness, he will seize the opportunity. That`s what Boltons and Freys did. Also, I don`t think Ned was born alpha, that was Brandon, Ned was much quiter version. But Ned learnt how to be alpha, step by step. That`s something I noticed with Ned and Robb on one side and Brandon and Jon on another. Brandon and Jon are true born alphas, only Jon is bounded by society norms, as Ned and Robb had to learn to be alpha. And that`s something you wonderfully showed in your essay, Manderlay.

[Lady Nastja]

Mladen, this is simply incredible work. It's important for the forum, interesting to read, and very well put together. Thank you, this is amazing :)

[Mladen]

Mladen, this is simply incredible work. It's important for the forum, interesting to read, and very well put together. Thank you, this is amazing :)

Lyanna, thank you. I am glad you have found time to read the project. If you want and have time, it would be my honor to have you as one of the contributors. We are still in search for the writers for the project, so any help is more than welcome. I would like to say to all of you who want to participate, you are more than free to PM me, so we could arrange something.

Also, I am so glad we started the project with such great essay. Thank you again, Manderlay.

[Alia of the knife]

Thankyou Alia, yes we can view it as a summation on Robb's doom, however he also shows great strength and leadership that cannot be rivalled by anyone else, I think he had to be cautious because he was at war with the most powerful house, and a man like Tywin Lannister, we don't know much about Brandon, but he would have been quick to act somewhat like Jaime, in some ways it can be helpful, and in some disastrous.

Jon I think despite his parentage, is more a wolf, he is unique, very different from the rest but also astoundingly similar to Ned, he was raised by Ned just like Robb and learnt the same lessons from his father, it would be interesting on how differently Jon would do things if he was King.

Very pleased that you liked the essay :)

Love it.

And I don't mean to focus on the negatives of Robb, but because he was so promising it makes you wonder, :frown5: so that is a good explaination for Robbs demise.

I believe Jon feels stronger attachment to his family than Robb. It`s nothig bad, Robb also had entire Kingdom to take care of, but Jon showed that, just like Ned, he would always choose family, both time when he denied Stannis and made clear Sansa is heiress, and when he declared he would march on Winterfell. Robb denied Sansa what`s hers, but Jon, even knowing that feels incomfortable taking what`s not his. That speaks a lot about Jon as a pack member.

The thing with Boltons and Freys are just like Jaime said. You always have strong beta that will challenge alpha, and on first sign of weakness, he will seize the opportunity. That`s what Boltons and Freys did. Also, I don`t think Ned was born alpha, that was Brandon, Ned was much quiter version. But Ned learnt how to be alpha, step by step. That`s something I noticed with Ned and Robb on one side and Brandon and Jon on another. Brandon and Jon are true born alphas, only Jon is bounded by society norms, as Ned and Robb had to learn to be alpha. And that`s something you wonderfully showed in your essay, Manderlay.

And Jon was willing to break his vows and leave the Wall to go fight for his family, so another demonstration of his loyalty to his pack.

I think we will eventually see the same behavior in Arya with the FM, because no way do I think there is anything kindly about the "Kindly Man," nor do I think she forgets who she is as that means forgetting Ned.

[Alia of the knife]

In the discussion regarding learning to become an Alpha, as Ned and Robb did, could it be attributed to the fact that Ned was a Beta, and Robb, a Betas offspring, whereas Jon is actually a son of an Alpha female?

Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but when you observe Brandon and Lyanna, they were the stars in their universe.

An interesting Native American story on the Wolf.

A young boy was sitting with his Grandfather one day and they were discussing the nature of good and evil, and it's relationship to Man.

The Grandfather told his Grandson that every man has two wolves inside him, both good and bad, and the boy asked him, "which one do I have?" and the Grandfather replied, "the one you feed."

I want to say it's Navaho, but I'll check to make sure.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

First of all, congratulations, Manderlay! It was a very well presented and very complete essay on one of the most difficult wolves to portray, as Robb was not a POV and we only see him through the eyes of others.

I think Robb's heavier weakness is summed up in Catelyn's quote:

How could you do this Robb? How could you be so … so very … young

Robb was forced to take a role he was not completely ready for, yet. All the Stark kids were thrown in the wild, left to fend more or less on their own. But none of them had the responsibility of anyone else but themselves. They have had the chance to make mistakes and learn from them. On the contrary, Robb had no margin for error. Any bad decision by his part would (and did) affect a whole kingdom. This is a huge burden for such a young person.

Robb was killed too young, he was not allowed to reach his full potential. He showed signs that he would become a strong alfa, if he had lived to grow... Now, he will remain forever, and be remembered as, the Young Wolf.

[Mladen]

And I don't mean to focus on the negatives of Robb, but because he was so promising it makes you wonder, :frown5: so that is a good explaination for Robbs demise.

I don`t see those as Robb`s negatives. Sometimes you have to make choices that are not easy, and that even seasoned men like Tywin wouldn`t know what to choose. Even Tywin is forced to choose between Jaime and army. I don`t see Robb as negative figure at all, just hos choices and inherited naivite from his father led him to his demise

In the discussion regarding learning to become an Alpha, as Ned and Robb did, could it be attributed to the fact that Ned was a Beta, and Robb, a Betas offspring, whereas Jon is actually a son of an Alpha female?

Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but when you observe Brandon and Lyanna, they were the stars in their universe.

It`s not oversimplification. I see Brandon and Lyanna as alpha pair, not in romantic or sexual way, but authoritarian. Also, I think that Robb and Ned had to learn a lot to be Alpha. It`s not something they were born with. Maybe in Robb`s case you could argue that, but he is seen as Beta by his siblings. So that transformation from young beta to adult alpha is brilliantly captivated in Catelyn`s POVs where she sees that he is growing up, and feels Robb isn`t her boy anymore.

[Alia of the knife]

I don`t see those as Robb`s negatives. Sometimes you have to make choices that are not easy, and that even seasoned men like Tywin wouldn`t know what to choose. Even Tywin is forced to choose between Jaime and army. I don`t see Robb as negative figure at all, just hos choices and inherited naivite from his father led him to his demise

It`s not oversimplification. I see Brandon and Lyanna as alpha pair, not in romantic or sexual way, but authoritarian. Also, I think that Robb and Ned had to learn a lot to be Alpha. It`s not something they were born with. Maybe in Robb`s case you could argue that, but he is seen as Beta by his siblings. So that transformation from young beta to adult alpha is brilliantly captivated in Catelyn`s POVs where she sees that he is growing up, and feels Robb isn`t her boy anymore.

Now Ned is interesting, and I confess I struggle with him sometimes because it feels like at times he did choose beyond his pack like his loyalty to Robert.

Robert once said he didn't love his brothers. He clearly felt more of a "brotherhood" with Ned, but with that once glimpse of seeming bitterness in his conversation with Cat regarding Brandon, "it was all for him," points to a backstory of struggle between the two brothers, (though I know it's not easy either when you've inherited someone elses life), but I also wonder if being fostered in the South diluted his "pack mentality?"

Though, I know that wolves will adopt others on occasion, which could be the case here with Robert.

As for Brandon and Lyanna, no, I take your meaning and I agree with that analysis.

[Manderlay]

snip

Thankyou ShadowCat, you have give an interesting PoV, I also came to the same conclusion that being King in the North was a huge burden to such a young person, Catelyn notices this in one of her chapters, she realizes that he is young but also at the same time the crown is a great burden and he is shouldering the weight bearing down on him very well, I think Robb has been presented to us and Young and yet strong, determined and having a great potential, if only he had lived ... yes he will certainly be remembered as the young wolf, but his people and bannermen also take a certain pride that such a young person led them so well and never lost a battle. This actually points that the Northmen didn't just love Ned but came to love his son as well, who looked Tully but was a Stark of winterfell and a man of the North.

snip

Intriguing thought Alia about Ned's bitterness and struggles between two brothers, I will say this, it's quite possible, I think Ned knows that Brandon was born to rule, from what we heard of Brandon he truly acted like a man to lead and command as if it came naturally to him, he was the true alpha while Ned was the beta and had to learn to become an Alpha, that would have been his source of bitterness also one more reason I think and I know this is far fetched, blaming his brother for hot temper and riding to KL and in the process getting killed, which means the responsibility fell on Ned and also to marry Catelyn in his brothers stead, Ned never wanted the role of Alpha I think, he also didn't want to marry Catelyn but did it for duty.

[Mladen]

Robb was killed too young, he was not allowed to reach his full potential. He showed signs that he would become a strong alfa, if he had lived to grow... Now, he will remain forever, and be remembered as, the Young Wolf.

Great POV, ShadowCat. I think that we can even argue that GRRM foreshadowed Robb`s path and fate with his nickname - Young wolf. As you said, he will never become great leader now, he will never be remmembered as someone who ruled long, he will be remembered as someone young who defended his country and family, and who was young in every way. I don`t think Robb was meant to win the first second he was called Young wolf.

Robert once said he didn't love his brothers. He clearly felt more of a "brotherhood" with Ned, but with that once glimpse of seeming bitterness in his conversation with Cat regarding Brandon, "it was all for him," points to a backstory of struggle between the two brothers, (though I know it's not easy either when you've inherited someone elses life), but I also wonder if being fostered in the South diluted his "pack mentality?"

Perhaps in some way. I remember when he remembers Lyanna, and he defended Robert`s indiscertions and bastards. Here, we can actually see how Ned`s loyal to Robert, that he even puts him in front of his own sister. Also, at the beginning of GOT, he shows that after so many years of ruling, and being de facto alpha, he wasn`t born for that. But, at the end, last proof for Ned`s position of beta anywhere is his behavior at KL when he found Jaime at the throne. Is Cersei right? In a way, yes. All he had to do is to claim the Throne, and who knows, Tywin might support him that day. But, no, Ned showed great honor and ackwnoledged his position of beta, yet again.

This actually points that the Northmen didn't just love Ned but came to love his son as well, who looked Tully but was a Stark of winterfell and a man of the North.

I think Northern love and devotion is deeper than one person, or even one generation. I mean, when you read Davos` POV chapter in DWD, with Wylla`s speech, you just absorb how much loyalty, and love is there, and that Starks esured support of entire North, not just by honor or iron fist, then by doing kindness and generosity whenever they could. They formed a big pack made of all families in the North, and they loved the pack, as pack loved them.

[Isildur's Mane]

With regards to Alpha and Beta wolves: I agree that Ned was definitley a Beta and Brandon was the Alpha, and that Ned is bitter that he has inheirited Brandons life. (Side note, if it is true that Ned loved Ashara, then he would be bitter about having to marry Cat - at least at first, I think he did come to love her)

But with regards to Robb as being Alpha or Beta, I think he is Alpha, but still has much to learn. At the start of GoT when Jon is saying goodbye to him, he sees Robb taking charge and ordering everyone about, I think this shows he is an Alpha.

If you compare him to Jon, what you have to take in account is that Jon was just that little bit older, and had a lot more life experience before he was forced to take charge.

Also, while someone is Alpha, doesn't mean they are good at everything, Robb was good at the military side but not the diplomacy side, Jon seems to be a bit more of an all-rounder. Also, Robb seems to be used to Jon being there; Jon says in one of his GoT chapters, that he and Robb were best friends, rivals and constant companions (or something like that), I take that to mean that they would maybe bounce ideas off each other, egg each other on, and compare each others achievements.

So when Jon has gone to the Watch, Robb is alone, he tries to get Bran to replace him (or so I feel) but Bran is too young and can't fill the shoes.

{Anyway, I hope I haven't taken this too far off topic. And I hope this makes sense: it's getting late, I'm exhausted and it's time for bed. I just new I couldn't go to sleep if I had this on my mind.}

[Alia of the knife]

Thankyou ShadowCat, you have give an interesting PoV, I also came to the same conclusion that being King in the North was a huge burden to such a young person, Catelyn notices this in one of her chapters, she realizes that he is young but also at the same time the crown is a great burden and he is shouldering the weight bearing down on him very well, I think Robb has been presented to us and Young and yet strong, determined and having a great potential, if only he had lived ... yes he will certainly be remembered as the young wolf, but his people and bannermen also take a certain pride that such a young person led them so well and never lost a battle. This actually points that the Northmen didn't just love Ned but came to love his son as well, who looked Tully but was a Stark of winterfell and a man of the North.

Intriguing thought Alia about Ned's bitterness and struggles between two brothers, I will say this, it's quite possible, I think Ned knows that Brandon was born to rule, from what we heard of Brandon he truly acted like a man to lead and command as if it came naturally to him, he was the true alpha while Ned was the beta and had to learn to become an Alpha, that would have been his source of bitterness also one more reason I think and I know this is far fetched, blaming his brother for hot temper and riding to KL and in the process getting killed, which means the responsibility fell on Ned and also to marry Catelyn in his brothers stead, Ned never wanted the role of Alpha I think, he also didn't want to marry Catelyn but did it for duty.

That struggle I think plays a lot into Neds later behaviors.

Like the Beta Teacher, and his concern for the young, as in his horror at the deaths of Elia and especially her children, that kinder nature may have been in some respects to his own doom, even though it's absolutely the right thing.

That is different from the Lion, Tywin who thinks it's necessary to go in and eradicate the offspring/DNA of the prior "lion," the Targaryens.

Certainly if Lyanna had lived, and Elia had succumbed to illness at some point as seems inevitable, Elias children would have likely been safer with Lyanna than Cersei.

Now, what would have been interesting is to see Brandons treatment of the enemy had he been leading the rebellion and survived, perhaps a subtle allusion to a different outcome that Cesei was making.

Having said all that though, had Brandon lived, and despite his taking Ashara for himself, I think that Ned still would have been loyal to his brother even if he married the woman that Brandon himself may have loved, which is another possibility.

Great POV, ShadowCat. I think that we can even argue that GRRM foreshadowed Robb`s path and fate with his nickname - Young wolf. As you said, he will never become great leader now, he will never be remmembered as someone who ruled long, he will be remembered as someone young who defended his country and family, and who was young in every way. I don`t think Robb was meant to win the first second he was called Young wolf.

Perhaps in some way. I remember when he remembers Lyanna, and he defended Robert`s indiscertions and bastards. Here, we can actually see how Ned`s loyal to Robert, that he even puts him in front of his own sister. Also, at the beginning of GOT, he shows that after so many years of ruling, and being de facto alpha, he wasn`t born for that. But, at the end, last proof for Ned`s position of beta anywhere is his behavior at KL when he found Jaime at the throne. Is Cersei right? In a way, yes. All he had to do is to claim the Throne, and who knows, Tywin might support him that day. But, no, Ned showed great honor and ackwnoledged his position of beta, yet again.

I think Northern love and devotion is deeper than one person, or even one generation. I mean, when you read Davos` POV chapter in DWD, with Wylla`s speech, you just absorb how much loyalty, and love is there, and that Starks esured support of entire North, not just by honor or iron fist, then by doing kindness and generosity whenever they could. They formed a big pack made of all families in the North, and they loved the pack, as pack loved them.

I think that is a perfect summation of the love of the Starks and the key reason the North have always likely seen the Starks as their defacto kings despite Torrens bending the knee.

And that is why no other family can be leader in the North, certainly not the Boltens which is why Manderly is sincerely trying to get hold of a Stark.

With regards to Alpha and Beta wolves: I agree that Ned was definitley a Beta and Brandon was the Alpha, and that Ned is bitter that he has inheirited Brandons life. (Side note, if it is true that Ned loved Ashara, then he would be bitter about having to marry Cat - at least at first, I think he did come to love her)

But with regards to Robb as being Alpha or Beta, I think he is Alpha, but still has much to learn. At the start of GoT when Jon is saying goodbye to him, he sees Robb taking charge and ordering everyone about, I think this shows he is an Alpha.

If you compare him to Jon, what you have to take in account is that Jon was just that little bit older, and had a lot more life experience before he was forced to take charge.

Also, while someone is Alpha, doesn't mean they are good at everything, Robb was good at the military side but not the diplomacy side, Jon seems to be a bit more of an all-rounder. Also, Robb seems to be used to Jon being there; Jon says in one of his GoT chapters, that he and Robb were best friends, rivals and constant companions (or something like that), I take that to mean that they would maybe bounce ideas off each other, egg each other on, and compare each others achievements.

So when Jon has gone to the Watch, Robb is alone, he tries to get Bran to replace him (or so I feel) but Bran is too young and can't fill the shoes.

{Anyway, I hope I haven't taken this too far off topic. And I hope this makes sense: it's getting late, I'm exhausted and it's time for bed. I just new I couldn't go to sleep if I had this on my mind.}

This is a great post, with a lot of good points.

And I think you will find that this a great thread to ask questions and have open discussions without any rancor.

As I said, the discussion of Ned, though I love him and think his underlying sadness was wonderfully portrayed by Bean, it is sometimes difficult to bring up his sometimes unlikely decisions- as in trusting LF, or seeming choice of Robert when he went back to KL when he should have stayed with his pack.

Also, apologies as well as I have another three minutes to get out the door, so I'm sorry if this is "choppy." :)

[Winterfellian]

First, congrats to Manderlay for a very insightful look into Robb’s story.

The young wolf and the alpha wolf:

There’s a sad and tragic juxtaposition in these terms as applied to Robb Stark. I think the way Robb’s story is presented by GRRM is definitely interesting. On one hand, after Ned’s death we as readers are compelled to see him as the alpha and hero who will pick up his father’s fallen banner and avenge the North. However, by giving us his story mostly through the eyes of his mother, we are constantly being reminded how truly young he really is. His nickname only reinforces this.

By presenting us his story in the way he does, Martin makes sure we see him both as the hero we want to get behind and the alpha of the Stark pack, but also as Catelyn’s cub. Robb might be a beloved King, but more importantly, he’s also Cat’s beloved young son. By doing this he made sure that when his death occurs we mourn for both and his loss is felt even more.

But did Robb truly made the jump from young wolf to an alpha? I know because of his status and size, Robb certainly is easy to associate with the term. However, I think of the two titles, young wolf is the more fit to describe him. As I understand alpha males, fight for this place in the pack. My guess is that such wolves take the step to become the alpha when they feel they’re ready (mostly guessing here, so feel free to correct me). Yet for Robb the role of the alpha was fostered on him before his time.

I see Cat’s constant presence in his story (even when he tries his best to cast her aside) and him shouldering Ned’s burden without ever picking and holding up his father’s sword as symbolic that Robb never ceased to be just a young wolf. The passing of the ancestral sword is not only a symbol of maturity in Westeros, but is a tradition that embodies the passing of honor and tradition from one generation to another and the strength to live up to one’s ancestors. It is a heavy burden but the sword suggests strength to hold it. Robb inherited the burden but never the strength.

Throughout his story, he remained caught between the hold of a mother for her cub and the burden of Ned’s legacy in his efforts to be worthy to picking up his Father’s fallen sword, both of which contribute to stunt his growth from young wolf to alpha.

As an afterthought, unlike his siblings, whose growing up process is marked by a break with the childhood home, and them casting their identity aside as means to survive and grow, Robb is handed the heavy burden of not only carrying that identity but also to live up to it. And the burden prove too much for him to hold it; he was just too young.

[Manderlay]

snip

Thankyou Winterfellian and great Pov, i really liked what you have said, the burden was too heavy for him, although he shoulders it admirably it still weighed heavy on him, in my essay I have shown the transition he makes from young wolf to alpha, but does he truly become an Alpha, well he does display traits of Alpha and the same time also the traits of the young wolf, if he had lived longer, perhaps he might have made that transition completely. Yes the role was fostered on him before his time, good symbolism on the sword, i never thought of it that way.

[Isildur's Mane]

....

This is a great post, with a lot of good points.

And I think you will find that this a great thread to ask questions and have open discussions without any rancor.

As I said, the discussion of Ned, though I love him and think his underlying sadness was wonderfully portrayed by Bean, it is sometimes difficult to bring up his sometimes unlikely decisions- as in trusting LF, or seeming choice of Robert when he went back to KL when he should have stayed with his pack.

Thank you Alia :) and I agree with you in regards to Sean Beans portrayal of Ned

...

I see Cat’s constant presence in his story (even when he tries his best to cast her aside) and him shouldering Ned’s burden without ever picking and holding up his father’s sword as symbolic that Robb never ceased to be just a young wolf. The passing of the ancestral sword is not only a symbol of maturity in Westeros, but is a tradition that embodies the passing of honor and tradition from one generation to another and the strength to live up to one’s ancestors. It is a heavy burden but the sword suggests strength to hold it. Robb inherited the burden but never the strength.

Throughout his story, he remained caught between the hold of a mother for her cub and the burden of Ned’s legacy in his efforts to be worthy to picking up his Father’s fallen sword, both of which contribute to stunt his growth from young wolf to alpha.

As an afterthought, unlike his siblings, whose growing up process is marked by a break with the childhood home, and them casting their identity aside as means to survive and grow, Robb is handed the heavy burden of not only carrying that identity but also to live up to it. And the burden prove too much for him to hold it; he was just too young.

Winterfellian, I really liked your comments, particularly these ones.

Your last thought reminded me of birds having to leave the nest, all of them left and had to fight to survive, but Robb was fighting for his home and for his family and so never really left... I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just thinking allowed.