Heresy 52

[King Tyrion VIII]

Indeed. Bloodraven introduces the additional problem of incorporating 3 MORE novellas. If we see Bloodraven I expect it to be very different than the books.

I think the hate for the show is way over-blown on this board. I find the Heresy folks generally like the show more than the average sparrow. I wonder if heretics are just appreciative of the extra content to gather clues from or if heretics just give D&D more slack because we enjoy these threads for all of the different viewpoints & interpretations put forth.

I've never worked in the industry. But I do understand that certain things have to change, especially when the show is 10 episodes instead of a much more reasonable 20 that would cover the book material much better. That's where I get stuck though, I don't know what the profit margin is so I can't just say how well they could handle twice the episodes, twice the budget. They do an amazing, AMAZING job with just 10 episodes.

I think Heretics are more open to the idea that the answers aren't right there on the surface. We're the "conspiracy theorists" of this board.

[redriver]

Nah, I'm mindful of GRRM's statement on this one: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

Looking upon the Others as just that, the Faerie people of the Otherlands just feels so right.

I hear you.But the resentment the Others have for life leads me to suspect that their condition was imposed upon them.That the Others resent life and are cruelly artistic in their destruction of it demonstrates that.

We don't get to see that the Others are misunderstood or cuddly,but hopefully we get a raison d'etre for them.They never appeared until long after the First Men in the story,and I think that's important in itself.

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

So...Black Crow...did the ice faeries grant the Northmen greenseeing/warging abilities, and the fire faeries to the East later granted the Valyrians fire and blood magic? In a pact, as it were?

Or did they just interbreed?

[nanother]

I hear you.But the resentment the Others have for life leads me to suspect that their condition was imposed upon them.That the Others resent life and are cruelly artistic in their destruction of it demonstrates that.

We don't get to see that the Others are misunderstood or cuddly,but hopefully we get a raison d'etre for them.They never appeared until long after the First Men in the story,and I think that's important in itself.

Technically, it's entirely possible that they have a 8000(*timeline compression factor) year long cycle and their last appearance before the Long Night was long before the FM came...

[redriver]

Technically, it's entirely possible that they have a 8000(*timeline compression factor) year long cycle and their last appearance before the Long Night was long before the FM came...

Leaf reckons the COTF were inhabiting Westeros for tens of thousands of years before the FM came along.She mentioned the giants as their "bane" but not the Others?

[Tyryan Lannister]

I know squad about american football :s (I'm argentinian) so I don't get a thing of that joke :dunno:

Basically, Martin is a big fan of American football (the New York Giants and especially the New York Jets in particular); within Dance, he put little football references to times of triumph for the Giants (two notable ones: the former Triarch, Belicho(?), being slain by giants--this is a play on Coach Belichick of the Patriots having lost two Super Bowls in the past few years to the New York Giants; Wun Wun, a giant, kills Ser Patrek of King's Mountain; Ser Patrek's sigil is a white, blue, and silver, with a star--this is a play on the New York Giants repeatedly beating the Dallas Cowboys the past few years, for the Cowboys' colors are white, blue, and silver and their logo is a single blue star). Noticing these two, some people in various places on Westeros.org (including myself) decided to take a look for other NFL-related references.. and then the NFL playoffs started, wherein my team, the Green Bay Packers, played against the San Francisco 49ers--and me making a connection of how the Packers, being from the North, are going off against the golden boys from the West, which eventually lead Black Crow to question "so, ASOIAF is just a take on American Football?" or something like that. The fact that Martin has been asked to talk about the recent draft of former college players just fits into this joke.

K... time to get back to Heresy

[Tyryan Lannister]

Leaf reckons the COTF were inhabiting Westeros for tens of thousands of years before the FM came along.She mentioned the giants as their "bane" but not the Others?

Well, the giants are their brothers and their bane; but, yes, it is interesting that she lists all of these Old Gods related beings in that list of creatures who are "dying out", but says nothing of the White Walkers at all.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Basically, Martin is a big fan of American football (the New York Giants and especially the New York Jets in particular); within Dance, he put little football references to times of triumph for the Giants (two notable ones: the former Triarch, Belicho(?), being slain by giants--this is a play on Coach Belichick of the Patriots having lost two Super Bowls in the past few years to the New York Giants; Wun Wun, a giant, kills Ser Patrek of King's Mountain; Ser Patrek's sigil is a white, blue, and silver, with a star--this is a play on the New York Giants repeatedly beating the Dallas Cowboys the past few years, for the Cowboys' colors are white, blue, and silver and their logo is a single blue star). Noticing these two, some people in various places on Westeros.org (including myself) decided to take a look for other NFL-related references.. and then the NFL playoffs started, wherein my team, the Green Bay Packers, played against the San Francisco 49ers--and me making a connection of how the Packers, being from the North, are going off against the golden boys from the West, which eventually lead Black Crow to question "so, ASOIAF is just a take on American Football?" or something like that. The fact that Martin has been asked to talk about the recent draft of former college players just fits into this joke.

K... time to get back to Heresy

Lifetime 49ers fan here :D

So I have to add at least this many sad faces as well: :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Would be great to see a 49ers reference when we see Casterly Rock :D

[Tyryan Lannister]

Lifetime 49ers fan here

So I have to add at least this many sad faces as well:

Would be great to see a 49ers reference when we see Casterly Rock

Such as an old story of an army of Giants roaming through the hills and trampling the common folk (while the new Lord/King of the Rock kept his younger son, who was the far superior battle field commander, behind closed doors and let his well over-matched older son attempt to win the day--where of course he failed)? :idea: :thumbsup:

EDIT: damn it, going down this road again...

[King Tyrion VIII]

Leaf reckons the COTF were inhabiting Westeros for tens of thousands of years before the FM came along.She mentioned the giants as their "bane" but not the Others?

This reminds me of the people of Lemuria who supposedly ruled from 76,000 BC to 24,000 BC before their civilization was destroyed in a pole shift.

[Black Crow]

I hear you.But the resentment the Others have for life leads me to suspect that their condition was imposed upon them.That the Others resent life and are cruelly artistic in their destruction of it demonstrates that.

We don't get to see that the Others are misunderstood or cuddly,but hopefully we get a raison d'etre for them.They never appeared until long after the First Men in the story,and I think that's important in itself.

I don't know that it is a resentment for life. That comes from Old Nan, who also says that they're dead. The two would be consistent except that GRRM himself says they're not dead, but a different kind of life. Your reference to the Otherlands, which I really should have picked myself earlier, especially since it comes up in Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, is spot on if we think of them as a Faerie race - the Others.

Yes they are cruel, but so, classically, are the Sidhe, but largely as I said before because they don't mind and men don't matter, which isn't the same thing as malice. Whether there's a particular significance to the symbols remains to be seen but quite clearly at this stage their importance is to show that whatever their true motives the Others are not somply mindless killers.

[Black Crow]

Leaf reckons the COTF were inhabiting Westeros for tens of thousands of years before the FM came along.She mentioned the giants as their "bane" but not the Others?

Indeed but there is a significant difference in that the Giants are at once their brothers and their bane because they inhabited the same lands and presumably competed accordingly. The Others on the other hand come from the Otherlands - the Land of Always Winter.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Such as an old story of an army of Giants roaming through the hills and trampling the common folk (while the new Lord/King of the Rock kept his younger son, who was the far superior battle field commander, behind closed doors and let his well over-matched older son attempt to win the day--where of course he failed)? :idea: :thumbsup:

EDIT: damn it, going down this road again...

:D Especially since the older son should've been switched at birth with that Ser Rodgers from the Land of Always Winter.

Edit: Honestly I'd prefer a less painful reference :P

[King Tyrion VIII]

So if Dany goes off to Valyria how will Dance of Dragons 2.0 happen? Or would it just not happen?

Martin has said repeatedly that Dany will invade Westeros, which I fully accept could just be him playing with us. But what about the Dance? He named a book after it. Will it just be following Aegon and Dany's storylines and they never meet? Will Dany's dragons fight dragons in Valyria?

[Tyryan Lannister]

:D Especially since the older son should've been switched at birth with that Ser Rodgers from the Land of Always Winter.

Edit: Honestly I'd prefer a less painful reference :P

:box: :cool4: :cheers:

[Tyryan Lannister]

So if Dany goes off to Valyria how will Dance of Dragons 2.0 happen? Or would it just not happen?

Martin has said repeatedly that Dany will invade Westeros, which I fully accept could just be him playing with us. But what about the Dance? He named a book after it. Will it just be following Aegon and Dany's storylines and they never meet? Will Dany's dragons fight dragons in Valyria?

there is the line from what will supposedly be Arianne I where the one 12 year old (or whatever) girl says that she's been having this recurring dream where two dragons are dancing with each other, and that wherever the dragons dance, people die... seems to be indicitive of two different people with control of the dragons fighting each other--the question becomes, is the new Dance between Aegon and Dany, or between Dany and someone who is currently there/almost there who "steals" a dragon for his/herself? :dunno:

[Hrafntýr]

there is the line from what will supposedly be Arianne I where the one 12 year old (or whatever) girl says that she's been having this recurring dream where two dragons are dancing with each other, and that wherever the dragons dance, people die... seems to be indicitive of two different people with control of the dragons fighting each other--the question becomes, is the new Dance between Aegon and Dany, or between Dany and someone who is currently there/almost there who "steals" a dragon for his/herself? :dunno:

Given the bivalency of the phrase "dance of dragons" (i.e. real dragons and Targaryens-as-dragons), it seems hard to imagine that a dragon battle between Dany and, say, Victarion, would "count" as a dance of dragons. The phrase means "a war of succession between two targaryen claimants to the throne." We know that after the last dance the Targaryens "clarified" their rules of succession, placing all possible male claimants before female ones. Given the books' obvious interest in questions of gender equity, I anticipate this being brought to the fore in whatever dance we see, whether a more metaphorical one that transpires mostly between the backers of the various claimants or one that involves a couple of folks on dragon back duking it out.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Given the bivalency of the phrase "dance of dragons" (i.e. real dragons and Targaryens-as-dragons), it seems hard to imagine that a dragon battle between Dany and, say, Victarion, would "count" as a dance of dragons. The phrase means "a war of succession between two targaryen claimants to the throne." We know that after the last dance the Targaryens "clarified" their rules of succession, placing all possible male claimants before female ones. Given the books' obvious interest in questions of gender equity, I anticipate this being brought to the fore in whatever dance we see, whether a more metaphorical one that transpires mostly between the backers of the various claimants or one that involves a couple of folks on dragon back duking it out.

While I do agree that this is likely to be the case, how do we reconcile it with the theories of Dany never reaching Westeros? Which is why I say that she will indeed reach Westeros, but not until the very end of the series. And we see her conquer/gain through diplomacy the Iron Throne, but we end it right there--we do not see her rule as Queen. Instead, we are left to wonder and debate whether or not she will be a new Good King Jaehaerys, Mad-King Aerys, Aegon Unworthy, Aegon Unlikely, or Aegon Conqueror.

EDIT: spelling

[Hrafntýr]

I don't have strong views one way or another about whether Dany comes to Westeros, in fact, I couldn't care less! I guess I meant to suggest that the dance of dragons could happen anywhere (East or West), but that it would need to involve two (or more) Targaryens, so if it's a literal as well as metaphorical dance of dragons, we need either to get another Targaryen east, or get Dany west, or have them meet up in some third place.

Of course Dragonstone isn't really west or east: it was a dragonlord outpost during the Valyrian Freehold, right?

[King Tyrion VIII]

:box: :cool4: :cheers:

:cheers:

there is the line from what will supposedly be Arianne I where the one 12 year old (or whatever) girl says that she's been having this recurring dream where two dragons are dancing with each other, and that wherever the dragons dance, people die... seems to be indicitive of two different people with control of the dragons fighting each other--the question becomes, is the new Dance between Aegon and Dany, or between Dany and someone who is currently there/almost there who "steals" a dragon for his/herself? :dunno:

Dany vs Vic or Moqorro or Marwyn or Tyrion or someone already in Valyria... I don't know if GRRM would introduce someone new that late so I'll guess that it will be Dany vs Vic. It's too simple to assume that Moqorro will succeed in using Vic and then screwing him over. My gut says Vic will end up defeating/desposing of Moqorro somehow.