R+L=J v.48

[LadyMary]

You both forget thaat Jon doesn't want to be Lord Stark.

IMHO, he might eventually sit on the IT, but never be the Prince of WF.

Shall I recall the dream in the crypts?

Who says he doesn't want to be Lord Stark? He wanted it very much even when offered by Stannis and was tempted, but the cost was too high - to his honor and to his culture. He would have had to break his vow to the NW and Stannis demanded that he burn the Heart tree in the gods wood at Winterfell as a sacrifice to R'hollor. If his "brother" Robb named him a Stark and decreed him heir, I think Jon would accept the name and title at this point and I think some of the rebel Northern Lords would rally around him if it meant removing the usurper, Ramsay Bolton, and the influence of the Lannisters and Freys who betrayed Ned and Robb.

Jon's dream in the crypts was him repeating what he'd been told; that he wasn't a "Stark", and if he's Rhaegar's son that would technically be true if the dream is prophetic. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to be Lord of Winterfell, if all his cousins are believed dead or disinherited. He's still a Stark by blood, not to mention a prince.

I still think Jon's role will be in the North, not the Iron Throne, whether he rules at Winterfell or leads an army of NW and Free Folk against the Others.

[Swan Targ]

He wanted to be a Stark, he was just bound by his vows for the NW to acccept Stannis offer.

[Jon Icefyre]

He wanted to be a Stark, he was just bound by his vows for the NW to acccept Stannis offer.

Don't forget Stannis also wanted Jon to forsake his northern old gods and accpet the lord of light as his one and only god as part of becoming lord of Winterfell, which obviously also played a part in Jon deciding not to accept Stannis's offer.

[Twinslayer]

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together (and Rhaegar astonished the Maesters with his wisdom as a youth) can follow the trail to Lyanna.

Each of the KotLT's 'victims' were curiously given back their horse, weapons and armour (enormously expensive, and customarily forfeit when losing a tourney joust) on the astonishing condition that they "teach their squires honour".

When Aerys instructs Rhaegar to find the KotLT there is no point in looking for a physical trail over 24 hours later. All he has to do instead is interview the squires and find out what the KotLT could have meant. That trail leads strait back to Lyanna.

And he did find the shield.

The scenario you describe (Rhaegar as detective) is more likely than the one I thought I was responding to (that Rhaegar caught Lyanna in her KOTLT armour).

I don't think it would have been as easy as you suggest, however. Otherwise, the squires would know. Their knights would know. Robert would know (he vowed to unmask the knight while he was drinking and we know from Ned that when Robert does that he never backs down). If Lyanna was the night, I'm sure she covered her tracks well -- especially since the Mad King just declared the knight an enemy, making it very dangerous to confess to his son.

[Swan Targ]

Maybe he knew it was her before and when Aerys ordered him to find out and bring the "guy" over, Rhaegar went to Lyanna, confronted her and got her shield in some way. Either she gave him or they have a little fight for it (which it could be a cool development)

[corbon]

The scenario you describe (Rhaegar as detective) is more likely than the one I thought I was responding to (that Rhaegar caught Lyanna in her KOTLT armour).

I don't think it would have been as easy as you suggest, however. Otherwise, the squires would know. Their knights would know. Robert would know (he vowed to unmask the knight while he was drinking and we know from Ned that when Robert does that he never backs down). If Lyanna was the night, I'm sure she covered her tracks well -- especially since the Mad King just declared the knight an enemy, making it very dangerous to confess to his son.

Why on earth would any of them know?

The squires have one clue, but don;t necessarily know its the clue, its just one thig that has happened in the last few days.

The knights have no idea why they are teaching their squires honour, and probably are just grateful to keep their gear.

Robert has no connection or involvement at all, other than a drunken boast. Robert doesn't back down from physical challenges, but this is not physical and is a drunken boast, nothing more.

All Rhaegar has to do is separately interview the three squires, think a bit, then find Lyanna and privately confront her, probably expressing his admiration for the honour and valour of the deed.

I think you are vastly over sophisticating everyone.

Lyanna cover her tracks? No need, all she has to do is put the armour and shield at the bottom of a chest and not turn up the next day dressed in it. Who is even going to think of looking for that stuff amongst her belongings?

Robert actually investigate the 'case'? What books have you been reading?

Most people in westeros are conditioned to make very powerful assumptions and make no effort to think past those. Nor to use systematic methods of thinking and deduction. Rhaegar has had citadel level training and is capable of that and has been tasked with it. Dutiful remember, thats his thing.

I repeat, its beyond comprehension that Rhaegar didn't find Lyanna during his search, but just randomly chose her as QoLaB for no reason. Remember, at this stage he is still successfully re-creating his 3 heads with Elia and has no need or interest in oher young girls.

[Jon Icefyre]

Why on earth would any of them know?

The squires have one clue, but don;t necessarily know its the clue, its just one thig that has happened in the last few days.

The knights have no idea why they are teaching their squires honour, and probably are just grateful to keep their gear.

Robert has no connection or involvement at all, other than a drunken boast. Robert doesn't back down from physical challenges, but this is not physical and is a drunken boast, nothing more.

All Rhaegar has to do is separately interview the three squires, think a bit, then find Lyanna and privately confront her, probably expressing his admiration for the honour and valour of the deed.

I think you are vastly over sophisticating everyone.

Lyanna cover her tracks? No need, all she has to do is put the armour and shield at the bottom of a chest and not turn up the next day dressed in it. Who is even going to think of looking for that stuff amongst her belongings?

Robert actually investigate the 'case'? What books have you been reading?

Most people in westeros are conditioned to make very powerful assumptions and make no effort to think past those. Nor to use systematic methods of thinking and deduction. Rhaegar has had citadel level training and is capable of that and has been tasked with it. Dutiful remember, thats his thing.

I repeat, its beyond comprehension that Rhaegar didn't find Lyanna during his search, but just randomly chose her as QoLaB for no reason. Remember, at this stage he is still successfully re-creating his 3 heads with Elia and has no need or interest in oher young girls.

:agree:

[Swan Targ]

I repeat, its beyond comprehension that Rhaegar didn't find Lyanna during his search, but just randomly chose her as QoLaB for no reason. Remember, at this stage he is still successfully re-creating his 3 heads with Elia and has no need or interest in oher young girls.

Exactly.

I find it weird that people uses the excuse that Rhaegar only took interest in Lyanna because Elia couldn't have children anymore. Making him seem like a selfish prick that only had interest in getting another child and Lyanna was only a tool for him to achieve that goal.

The Lyanna/Rhaegar thing began before the maesters told Rhaegar, after Aegon was born, that Elia couldn't have another child.

[Twinslayer]

Why on earth would any of them know?

The squires have one clue, but don;t necessarily know its the clue, its just one thig that has happened in the last few days.

The knights have no idea why they are teaching their squires honour, and probably are just grateful to keep their gear.

Robert has no connection or involvement at all, other than a drunken boast. Robert doesn't back down from physical challenges, but this is not physical and is a drunken boast, nothing more.

All Rhaegar has to do is separately interview the three squires, think a bit, then find Lyanna and privately confront her, probably expressing his admiration for the honour and valour of the deed.

I think you are vastly over sophisticating everyone.

Lyanna cover her tracks? No need, all she has to do is put the armour and shield at the bottom of a chest and not turn up the next day dressed in it. Who is even going to think of looking for that stuff amongst her belongings?

Robert actually investigate the 'case'? What books have you been reading?

Most people in westeros are conditioned to make very powerful assumptions and make no effort to think past those. Nor to use systematic methods of thinking and deduction. Rhaegar has had citadel level training and is capable of that and has been tasked with it. Dutiful remember, thats his thing.

I repeat, its beyond comprehension that Rhaegar didn't find Lyanna during his search, but just randomly chose her as QoLaB for no reason. Remember, at this stage he is still successfully re-creating his 3 heads with Elia and has no need or interest in oher young girls.

I am quite puzzled. You said anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be able to figure out that Lyanna was the KOTLT. Now you are saying it required "citadel level training." That seems inconsistent.

As for Robert, we see him make two boasts at tournaments whilst drunk in the books. The first (chronologically) is at Harrenhal, when he promises to unmask the KOTLT. The second is at the Hand's Tourney, when Ned says Robert never backs down from that kind of boast. I think it is fair to say that Robert went looking for the KOTLT.

As for why Rhaegar picked Lyanna, the conventional wisdom is that he was trying to create a baby of "ice and fire." If that is right, then there aren't many candidates for the mother and Lyanna wouldn't need to dress up in armour and win tournaments Brienne-style to catch his attention. In fact, given the very backward/mysoginistic views of most Westerosi, that would probably not have been very appealing to Rhaegar.

[UVA]

I would like to see that happen, but I don't think it will

Oh I hope not. I'm firmly against a Dany-Jon love match for a number of reasons not the least of which is the fact that these two characters (as we know them) seem so incompatible as lovers. Instead, if there's any connection between Dany and Jon in future novels I hope it's based on familial love. The Fabulous Ms. butterbumps! did a tremendous job recently of arguing this point (among others) -- and unfortunately I can't link the thread because the search function is not working right now.

Suffice it to say I think Jon would be appalled at Dany's apparent acceptance of fratricide, torture and death by fire. Do you really think he'd like Dany let alone bed her given his attitude towards Mel? What perhaps would seem a more likely -- and honestly for me -- a more satisfying scenario is a relationship based on the hopeless realization that they are the last of the Targaryen line. So it's as nephew and aunt that they recognize an affinity in a shared bloodline and heritage. This seems to be far more essential to both characters' arcs, which are fundamentally driven by the need to find 'home' and a 'family' identity.

[Swan Targ]

As for why Rhaegar picked Lyanna, the conventional wisdom is that he was trying to create a baby of "ice and fire." If that is right, then there aren't many candidates for the mother and Lyanna wouldn't need to dress up in armour and win tournaments Brienne-style to catch his attention. In fact, given the very backward/mysoginistic views of most Westerosi, that would probably not have been very appealing to Rhaegar.

He wasn't trying to create the baby of ice and fire with Lyanna. He thought TPTWP was Aegon (and his was the song of ice and fire). And Aegon was born after he began his little affair with Lyanna at Harrenhall.

And I won't even comment on the last bit because it's just nonsense.

[Old-Growth]

UVA:

I have offered one scenario about how it will happen above. Care to answer? (Hint: Dany isn't going to give Jon a choice in the matter.)

[corbon]

I am quite puzzled. You said anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be able to figure out that Lyanna was the KOTLT. Now you are saying it required "citadel level training." That seems inconsistent.

Yes, it does, doesn't it. My bad.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together who actually tries, and who isn't blinded by social expectations.

As for Robert, we see him make two boasts at tournaments whilst drunk in the books. The first (chronologically) is at Harrenhal, when he promises to unmask the KOTLT. The second is at the Hand's Tourney, when Ned says Robert never backs down from that kind of boast. I think it is fair to say that Robert went looking for the KOTLT.

As often seems to happen with us, this is so far from how I see the character coming through from the text that I literally cannot understand how anyone can read these books and genuinely come to this conclusion.

ETA: Oh wait, I see. One of your usual jumps. Apparently, fighting all comers in a melee and doing some detective work is the same kind of boast to Robert?

As for why Rhaegar picked Lyanna, the conventional wisdom is that he was trying to create a baby of "ice and fire." If that is right, then there aren't many candidates for the mother and Lyanna wouldn't need to dress up in armour and win tournaments Brienne-style to catch his attention. In fact, given the very backward/mysoginistic views of most Westerosi, that would probably not have been very appealing to Rhaegar.

Err, what?

She quite clearly caught his attention while he was still making his three dragons with Elia, and around 9 months after he'd named Lyanna QoLaB he declares that Elia's son Aegon 'owns' the Song of Ice and Fire.

But when the Maesters effectively declare Elia unable to contribute the third head, he has to rethink his prophecy interpretation. At this stage he does need a new baby momma, and he's already had his admiration kindled for a certain northern girl. That she represents ice to his fire is a bonus that may assist a rethink, not the reason he notices her - he did that 9 months before.

[J. Stargaryen]

Again. It's the uses in Westeros that matter, not what any of us might think of them. A quote; AGOT p. 309 in my copy:

"Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storms's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children..."

It's no joke: even Arya's rights precede Jon's.

The Satrks are missing, there are only rumours that one of them is alive, and I doubt Bran can rule via weirwoodnet conference. Rickon might have drowned or been eated by the Skagosi.

Aerys Targaryen was to blame the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark. Common knowlege in the North is that Rhaegar abduced Lyanna and was responsible for her death. Jon would be born after rape.

I tend to doubt about Targ popularity in the North.

Sorry, but I also doubt I can explain it better.

Not since Robb's will legitimized him.

The Northerners can make use of Rhaegar's claim to the throne without liking him.

[finger]

In what part of J. Star's post was "Prince of Winterfell" ever mentioned?

That's a mere technicality, you may say Lord of WF, Kitn, or whatever you like best. I just mean I don't see him leaving the Wall for anything but the IT, IF he eventually does it.

[finger]

Who says he doesn't want to be Lord Stark? He wanted it very much even when offered by Stannis and was tempted, but the cost was too high - to his honor and to his culture. He would have had to break his vow to the NW and Stannis demanded that he burn the Heart tree in the gods wood at Winterfell as a sacrifice to R'hollor. If his "brother" Robb named him a Stark and decreed him heir, I think Jon would accept the name and title at this point and I think some of the rebel Northern Lords would rally around him if it meant removing the usurper, Ramsay Bolton, and the influence of the Lannisters and Freys who betrayed Ned and Robb.

Jon's dream in the crypts was him repeating what he'd been told; that he wasn't a "Stark", and if he's Rhaegar's son that would technically be true if the dream is prophetic. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to be Lord of Winterfell, if all his cousins are believed dead or disinherited. He's still a Stark by blood, not to mention a prince.

I still think Jon's role will be in the North, not the Iron Throne, whether he rules at Winterfell or leads an army of NW and Free Folk against the Others.

It's open to interpretation, of course. I see the dream in the crypts as if he rejects to be there, but he must go down to discover his own identity. But it might mean he'll be eventually buried there. And this wouldn't automaticaly mean that he'll be the Lord of WF; he could be the LC of the NW till his death and be buried in WF.

When he decides to go to WF is only because he can't the notion that Arya is in danger. Ha had tried it before, when he was tempted to go and join Robb. He declares he's going by his own, even though he welcomes any help. I think he makes clear that it's a strict personnal reason.

I totally agree with your last paragraph, but I also think that the story won't finish there.

To sum up, I only see Lord Snow as LC or King of the seven kigndoms, if he doesn't die in the fight.

[finger]

Not since Robb's will legitimized him.

The Northerners can make use of Rhaegar's claim to the throne without liking him.

If we take things to legalilty...

I agree that it's very probable that Robb legitmized Jon, but...

He intended to legitimaze his BROTHER, but he actually is his COUSIN, and Robb didn't know this circumstance when he signed the will. I don't know the Northern law but I think that's pretty invalidating.

Honest, I think the other heirs would win the case at the Court in RL, depending on the country, of course.

And yes, his Stark half could make him before the Northern lords more suit to sit the IT that a Lannister or even a Baratheon. Most probably they'd support him better than Gendry or Edric Storm, but I wouldn't stretch it too much. But I think he'll win his right mainly on the battlefield.

[lcd52]

Since so much is being made in the ADWD about child heads of houses being a disaster, I don't think the North is going to care too much about Robb's misinformation. He wanted Jon to succeed him. He made that clear - to the point of defying his mother. The antsy attitude of the bannermen MAY have been due to her impending "exile" to Seaguard, of course; but I think they were pretty well aware of the entire bone of contention.

[MtnLion]

If we take things to legalilty...

I agree that it's very probable that Robb legitmized Jon, but...

He intended to legitimaze his BROTHER, but he actually is his COUSIN, and Robb didn't know this circumstance when he signed the will. I don't know the Northern law but I think that's pretty invalidating.

Honest, I think the other heirs would win the case at the Court in RL, depending on the country, of course.

And yes, his Stark half could make him before the Northern lords more suit to sit the IT that a Lannister or even a Baratheon. Most probably they'd support him better than Gendry or Edric Storm, but I wouldn't stretch it too much. But I think he'll win his right mainly on the battlefield.

I don't think that Robb needs to stipulate the pedigree of the person he names as his successor. Simply naming Jon Snow as his successor would effectively take it away from Sansa and Arya, as well as Bran and Rickon. He most likely would preced that by legitimizing Jon Snow as Jon Stark.

[lcd52]

The scenario you describe (Rhaegar as detective) is more likely than the one I thought I was responding to (that Rhaegar caught Lyanna in her KOTLT armour).

I don't think it would have been as easy as you suggest, however. Otherwise, the squires would know. Their knights would know. Robert would know (he vowed to unmask the knight while he was drinking and we know from Ned that when Robert does that he never backs down). If Lyanna was the night, I'm sure she covered her tracks well -- especially since the Mad King just declared the knight an enemy, making it very dangerous to confess to his son.

The prime suspect should have been Howland Reed: Small stature, borrowed bits of armor, weirwood shield = Crannogman.

(If it WAS Lyanna, she probably set poor Howland up for another beating. oops!)