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Aarnikotka

[BOOK SPOILERS] Lady Talysa

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Hey now, you are the same guy who was proposing that Dagmer was actaully Ramsey Bolton last year with far less information, so there is no reason to be so offended by this stuff. As for motive the same motive that many characters have found themselves. The belief that you are doing something for one cause only to realize your committment to that cause isn't so airtight. Not so different from Theon, Brienne, down the road Tyrion.

Haha, what "hey aren't you the guy who got beat up by ________ in the third grade" moment.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Talisa pulls off a mask and reveals herself to be Dagmar, before killing Robb. Major brainfuck.

50:1 odds on Talisa revealing herself to be the lesbian lover of Ros before turning into the Prince that was Promised and flying away on Drogon yelling "What do we say to the God of Death? Not today!" while high-fiving the disembodied ghost of Brynden Rivers.

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50:1 odds on Talisa revealing herself to be the lesbian lover of Ros before turning into the Prince that was Promised and flying away on Drogon yelling "What do we say to the God of Death? Not today!" while high-fiving the disembodied ghost of Brynden Rivers.

I would achieve arousal if this happened on the show. Just from sheer amusement and horror.

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Are you suggesting that there is no slavery in Volantis and therefore their society is similar to Dorne's?

Actually, I'm following the show's suggestion the slave owners from Volantis are like Lady Talisa rather than the ones Dany has met so far.

If that is the case, the Free Cities are more likely to ally to Dorne on the show than the slaves still waiting for Dany on the books.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Talisa pulls off a mask and reveals herself to be Dagmar, before killing Robb. Major brainfuck.

LOL. By the way I don't want to sound like Im attacking King Tommen, I think he is one of the better posters around. I was just perplexed how he supported last years theory de jour but not this years theory. Whatever happens it will probably be pretty controversial.

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I watched season 2 before I read the book and I completely hated Talisa. I thought it was the worst part of the season. Talisa was annoying and Robb acted like a complete idiot. Plus the romance was so rushed. Disrespectful foreign girl appears on the battlefield and then stays in camp with thousands of men, a few scenes later and it's all 'I don't want to marry the Frey girl' followed by virgins lustily stripping off for some wild sex on the ground.

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LOL. By the way I don't want to sound like Im attacking King Tommen, I think he is one of the better posters around. I was just perplexed how he supported last years theory de jour but not this years theory. Whatever happens it will probably be pretty controversial.

Yeah, no problem at all. I think what I was trying to point out was that a year ago, I learned a lesson and now having almost 3 seasons worth of material under out belts, the tendencies of the show writing and production make it easier now to predict to a certain degree where they're going with storylines. And what I've observed is that the show doesn't really do the subtle mysteries. If something's coming, you can usually tell by specific dialogue or the way character's behave. It's more overt and it's I imagine because they producers feel like the audience is confused enough as it is attempting to follow the multiple arcs and dozens of characters.

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I watched season 2 before I read the book and I completely hated Talisa. I thought it was the worst part of the season. Talisa was annoying and Robb acted like a complete idiot. Plus the romance was so rushed. Disrespectful foreign girl appears on the battlefield and then stays in camp with thousands of men, a few scenes later and it's all 'I don't want to marry the Frey girl' followed by virgins lustily stripping off for some wild sex on the ground.

Well I'm not sure what they could do about the rushed feeling. They introduced her as early as possible (although I agree not very well and unnecessarily combative) But if you throw out the first scene she hasn't been much different then the book character. I think people have this weird double standard b/c in the book she and Robb have sex even more quickly. I don't get why book Talisa is such a saint while show Talisa is a seductress.

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It's funny everyone keeps saying to throw out the first scene. How exactly is someone just supposed to forget the first annoying impression someone gives? I mean in all seriousness. Not even just with Talisa but anyone in general. 'If you forget the first scene' is one of the worst arguments I've read on this forum and a few people have said it now. Talisa is not Jeyne I wish people would stop calling Jeyne as Talisa and Talisa as Jeyne. One is a foreigner and the other isn't (among other differences). I personally don't think either of them are 'saints' but Talisa is definitely more annoying with her outspoken/modern attitude. And I haven't read many people call her a suductress, but she does in fact pursue him a little bit, granted he does more of the pursing. Otherwise there's no need for her to barge into his tent on a couple different occasions.

But yeah they're are differences between the charactes and Jeyne, IMO, fits in better with the world than Talisa but everyone arguing 'throw out the first scene' (not even mentioning to forget the tent barging) is a horrible argument.

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People are saying "throw out the first scene" because her attitude in that scene is pretty well the opposite of the way she is portrayed afterwards. If you tuned in for the start of this season and had not seen Talisa and Robb before, there is no way you would characterize Talisa as "modern" or "not part of the ASOIAF universe". She's a dutiful, caring, kind, respectful wife who Robb confides in and cares for himself. The "meet cute" scene was poorly written but we're allowed to move past that. Hanging on to one scene and ignoring the rest is kind of silly. I can think of lots of shows and movies that had silly intros for characters but eventually they found a better footing for the character and you grew to like or respect them more.

I don't even get the "barging into Robb's tent" stuff either. She doesn't barge in. She knocks (or the equivalent of whatever you do to try and knock to get into a tent). She politely asks if she's able to talk to the guy who has sought her out on multiple occasions prior to that. And it's not like she's sashaying in to shoot the shit, she has requests in her role as nurse that she would like to ask of him. And he's clearly happy to see her when she comes so it's a fairly weak argument to make. Robb's bannerman are annoyed clearly but it's not at her, it's at Robb for prioritizing the conversation with Talisa over theirs. It's not her fault.

I can't quite understand if people want her to be a mousy, never speak unless spoken to, trembling little girl to be able to fit in with what their expectation of the character should be. This of course ignores the many female characters on the show who carry themselves with confidence and have no problem interacting with men at an equal level (Cat, Arya, Brienne, Dany, Margaery, QoT, Cersei etc, etc). Remember that she's not commonfolk, she's from a noble family so even though she's working as a nurse, old habits are going to remain and she's going to carry herself the way she was brought up which was someone of importance and status. Robb even susses this out from her shortly after chatting. That's probably one of the reasons that he's supposed to be intrigued by her.

Finally, you need to equate her with Jeyne Westerling because she's filling the role on the show. It's a different character with a different background but she obviously has the same purpose. It's the same thing as understanding that Locke is not Vargo Hoat (he's not a sellsword but a man serving Roose) but he's going to be fulfilling the same plot points of the character.

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I can understand for people who haven't seen the scene to obviously not care much to how they meet, but when that's people's first impression of her it's kind of hard to just forget that. To be honest my problem with her isn't exactly that she mouths off a few times, but it is kind of annoying, it's how this supposed kind and caring nurse appears so snobby and fully of herself IMO. The scene where she speaks to Robb in the woods and guards come to tell him about Cat's betrayal and how she holds herself when the guard is there is a perfect exactly how I think she comes off so uppity. The Lannister boys scene was another one where I thought she was being more snobby rather than kind to them. I don't know if the actress intended to give her character that vibe or not, all I know is that's the way it comes off to me.

The two characters fill the same role but there are still some differences between them. I know in hindsight that really means little, but they're still different in background and ethnicity and whatnot that people shouldn't be switching their names so easily. It is kind of an insult to both characters IMO.

D&D just can't write meek or non 'badass' characters, that's why Cat and Sansa have pretty much been shit on. That's a big reason why, IMO, they made Talisa in the first place. If we had Jeyne, even if they tweaked things and fleshed her out a bit, she would get the shaft just as Catelyn does. And her knowing extensive nursing knowledge is modern IMO considering only maesters should know that stuff. I'm fairly certain, or the impression the books gave me, was Jeyne just knew simple stuff. Women in that time shouldn't know the sort of knowledge Talisa does. At least that's how it came off to me in the books, so her being a nurse definitely makes me think of her as more modern. Not to mention it's unrealistic that men never tried to rape her. I just can't see her being a virgin.. There's no way..

Basically overall she is just a horribly written character. I wouldn't say she's as bad this season but her horrible scenes last season are hard to just forget. There's to many plot holes with her on top of that. I find it funny people say she's a great character yet a lot of show only viewers I talk to think she's out of place on this world. Even for a 'badass character'. Honestly what does that say about D&D's writing of this character if show only viewers, who have no knowledge of Jeyne and the change, that watches think she is oddly out of place.

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People keep saying that Talisa could be the f!Arya, but she is clearly in her late teens/early twenties, and Arya is a pre-pubescent child.

In the book, the ploy worked because of several factors:

- Jayne was only about 2 years older than Arya

- Jayne had lived at Winterfell her whole life and knew the place and the people living there

- The Boltons who saw f!Arya had never seen Jayne or Arya before

- The people who did know f!Arya was fake kept their mouths shut to protect Arya/Jeyne

On the show:

- As I mentioned, Talisa is a grown adult woman and Arya is pre-pubescent

- Talisa doesn't know Winterfell or its people in the way Jayne did

- Maybe Ramsay won't attend the wedding, but other Boltons will and thus will know Talisa as Talisa

I just don't understand how that could possibly work on any level.

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Jeyne Westerling was a huge non-event in the books so I was quite glad when D&D decided to replace her character. What I'm less sure about is why they decided to replace her with Claire Beauchamp from the Outlander series.

Talisa:

- sassy battlefield nurse from a faraway place

- falls helplessly in love with a redheaded (ok, auburn-haired) Northern barbarian

- hastily marries aforementioned ginger barbarian

- falls pregnant

Possible spoilers below for those that haven't read Outlander.

Claire:

- sassy battlefield nurse from a faraway place (ok, time)

- falls helplessly in love with a redheaded Northern barbarian

- hastily marries aforementioned ginger barbarian

- falls pregnant

If the similarities in their characters continue, Talisa will survive the RW and give birth to a redheaded daughter... ;)

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anyone considering her run away with blackfish ?

im thinking it could just show how badass blackfish is thu now that i said it out loud it doesnt make sense to protect her instad of Robb thats a real target ... perheps they wonder off or something .

and if she does die what does it mean for blackfish and Jeyne in books ?

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I doubt she was a virgin in all honesty. I hate her but I don't even think that to degrade her or anything. But how can a nurse traveling in battlefields actually still be a virgin when there are way to many men that could easily rape her? I just don't see it. Even Breenie was almost raped and that was just a small group of men. Not all northerners are honorable.. Nor anywhere else she might have traveled during the war. She definitely yells 'slut' or 'not innocent' to me.

That's not what I was saying. I wasn't saying that rape equaled slut. I was pointing out how Breenie an even Sansa who isn't a fighting sort of character have almost been raped yet a random nurse who has no protection of sorts before Robb takes a liking to her is somehow a virgin. Even if she wasn't raped I don't see how she's not a virgin. She comes off as not being one to me.

Way to take what I said way out of context.

And FYI I do think she is a slut. The woman clearly keeps flirting with a man she knows is getting married and does nothing to brush off his attempts of pursuit. And they have sex after barely knowing each other more than what? A couple weeks? Yes... She's sooo inoccent and a virgin...

How in the world is it out of context? You said:

1. She's not a virgin, because

2. She's been on battlefields where she's a prime target for rape, and

3. She yells "slut" and "not innocent" to you.

That sequence clearly says that you consider her a slut because she can't possibly be a virgin. And the reason you give for why she can't be a virgin is because she must've been raped at some point.

As for the part about her behavior with Robb, there was not a single mention of that in the first post I quoted. That first post only talks about lack of virginity.

At no point did I say that Talisa is a virgin, that she's innocent, or that I approve of her behavior with Robb. Those were not the point of my reaction, and if you actually read it you know that. But it's nice to see that you blame her for the fact that Robb pursues her, even though he's the one who swore to marry someone else. Oh, and yet further confirmation that "not virgin" equals slut in a woman, but not in a man.

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How in the world is it out of context? You said:

1. She's not a virgin, because

2. She's been on battlefields where she's a prime target for rape, and

3. She yells "slut" and "not innocent" to you.

That sequence clearly says that you consider her a slut because she can't possibly be a virgin. And the reason you give for why she can't be a virgin is because she must've been raped at some point.

As for the part about her behavior with Robb, there was not a single mention of that in the first post I quoted. That first post only talks about lack of virginity.

At no point did I say that Talisa is a virgin, that she's innocent, or that I approve of her behavior with Robb. Those were not the point of my reaction, and if you actually read it you know that. But it's nice to see that you blame her for the fact that Robb pursues her, even though he's the one who swore to marry someone else. Oh, and yet further confirmation that "not virgin" equals slut in a woman, but not in a man.

It is taking it out of context to say that I said she yelled not in innocent and a slut to me just because I mentioned possible rape... The two are not the same thing. Mentioning rape doesn't mean that was what I thought she wasn't innocent and a slut about.

I never said Robb wasn't innocent but she didn't help matters any. And like I said when I wrote that it wasn't meant to come off that being raped equals slut. I definitely wouldn't say anything like that about any woman. Especially considering I am one. I just don't see how she can be a virgin. Even without the possibility that she was raped. I only mentioned rape because considering she's following battle camps there's the high possibility she could have been. So no I hadn't mentioned rape to imply that she was somehow a slut because of that happening. If it came off that way then yes it was lack of transition between the two thoughts in my post. Since people like to nit pick evey sentence ill just reiterate I do not think being raped would equal being a slut.

But in the context of the show even if she was somehow a virgin before Robb it's still slutty for a high born woman to go spreading her legs for guys she wasn't married to. IMO anyway.

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Look, here's the thing. Although I don't have a problem with Jeyne the way some of you don, I certainly am not committed enough to her character that I would vehemently oppose any change. Jeyne is a character that I can take or leave, it's not a big deal to me either way.

My problem with Talisa has never been that she replaced Jeyne, my problem with Talisa has always been Talisa. She's a poorly conceived, poorly written character. And those of you who defend her by saying that take away her introductory scene she's not the spunky/sassy nurse just proves my point. How is it that her personality goes under this drastic change? Because she's not a character, she's a plot device, and her personality takes on whatever the writers needs to serve the plot. I would preferred they kept her the same character, because at least then I'd know the writers had a personality/history in mind when they created her.

As it currently stands, it's clear they just give her whatever character they need to serve the scene. That's why she is not interesting, that's why Robb falling for her doesn't work.

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Look, here's the thing. Although I don't have a problem with Jeyne the way some of you don, I certainly am not committed enough to her character that I would vehemently oppose any change. Jeyne is a character that I can take or leave, it's not a big deal to me either way.

My problem with Talisa has never been that she replaced Jeyne, my problem with Talisa has always been Talisa. She's a poorly conceived, poorly written character. And those of you who defend her by saying that take away her introductory scene she's not the spunky/sassy nurse just proves my point. How is it that her personality goes under this drastic change? Because she's not a character, she's a plot device, and her personality takes on whatever the writers needs to serve the plot. I would preferred they kept her the same character, because at least then I'd know the writers had a personality/history in mind when they created her.

As it currently stands, it's clear they just give her what's character they need to serve the scene. That's why she is not interesting, that's why Robb falling for her doesn't work.

:agree:

I've never had a problem with them wanting to change the character. My problem with the change itself was a bad one. Sure I would have liked to see the Robb/Jeyne storyline actually fleshed out but that's not the reason I hate the change, just a tiny reason among bigger/better reasons why I dislike it. I don't even understand why she had to be so drastically different. If they didn't want the character as a daughter of a Lannister loyal bannermen couldn't they have chosen some small house in the, lets say, Riverlands instead of making her a foreigner which make the bannermen like Robb even less for choosing someone not even of Westeros. But yeah my problem is that the character is very poorly written as well as the arc for the two. They should obviously stick closer to the source material of the books because its clear that D&D aren't the best at writing their own arcs/characters in comparison to when they stick a bit truer to the books.

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