[book spoilers] Foreshadowing

[Kenyatta]

Thoros: "It's not getting any easier you know."

Dondarrion: "I know. Every time I come back -- I'm a bit less. Pieces of you get chipped away."

Arya: "Could you bring back a man without a head. Not six times -- just once?"

Thoros: "I don't think It works that way child."

That explains a whole hell of a lot. Clearly these men's hearts go out to her. But it also explains Dondarrion's decision not to die eight times, and Thoros' reluctance to bring back a too far gone Catelyn Stark. If this was in the books I missed it. But then again, I didn't know what was coming like I do now so I probably didn't give it the consideration it deserved.

[Dove]

I'm not sure it was intended as foreshadowing but after you get over the "Awww :bawl:"-factor of Arya asking about bringing back a man without a head, I couldn't help but think of Robert Strong.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Does Shireen singing Patchface's song in the credits count as foreshadowing?

[SerMixalot]

Tywin is working with Bolton

Tywin "Theon Greyjoy killed the 2 Stark boys"

The only one who KNOWS this is Ramsey, thus Roose.

Not even Cat and Robb know this right now.

[mi recuerdo en tus ojos]

My apologies if this has been mentioned already, but I wonder if the decision the showrunners made to highlight that Jaime was against his father's plan to turn against Aerys and sack the city (and leading to the gruesome member of the Targaryen royal family), but was still judged as complicit and the worst sort of scum imaginable is not foreshadowing of sorts for what will happen with the Red Wedding. I wouldn't be surprised if Jaime is the one who formally secures the alliance with Roose Bolton having no clue that there's already a plot to slaughter the Starks - a plot masterminded by daddy, of course- but, thanks to Bolton's glee at fucking with his audience and the infamous "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" (they are SO doing that line), he is regarded as having been a part of the conspiracy all along. It spells out things very clearly for the audience if S4 and 5 is all about Lady Stoneheart wanting HIS head above everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if Jaime and Brienne's last scene this season is when they receive word of the RW.

['96Buck]

Tywin is working with Bolton

Tywin "Theon Greyjoy killed the 2 Stark boys"

The only one who KNOWS this is Ramsey, thus Roose.

Not even Cat and Robb know this right now.

Ramsey is the one who knows Theon DID NOT kill them. The putative Stark boys' bodies were on display in Winterfell, publicly so, the point of it was showing Theon was a hardass. There is no reason to believe that word of that did not make it outside the walls of Winterfell before it was burned.

[Tyrion4President]

I didn't notice the music, but I did notice it was raining in both scenes and the parallel of Theon following his adviser to do a thing which seals his fate while Robb NOT following his adviser to seal his fate is pretty clear.

One question to ask is what else could Robb have done? Would the RW not have happened if he had just locked up Lord Karstark instead? D&D did a great job of having Karstark already get under Robb's skin by questioning his decision and saying that "You lost this war the moment you married her (gesturing at Talisa)" way back in S3E02. I'm not saying that's what made Robb takes Karstark's head but it couldn't have helped.

I did think it was weird that he looked so frustrated that Karstark's army had left (hello, you killed their Lord?). What did Robb think would happen? I think the main point is that they are showing how alike Robb and Ned are--they will follow their principle and way the world *should* work over what will actually work best to get them closer to their ultimate goal.

I find it funny that GRRM kind of gives the impression that honor and morals end up getting you killed. He did it with Ned, he did it with Robb, he did it when Bronn fought the guy for Tyrion in the Eerie and he did it with Rhaegar. Hes sending the message that playing fair only gets you so far

[drstrangelove]

I find it funny that GRRM kind of gives the impression that honor and morals end up getting you killed. He did it with Ned, he did it with Robb, he did it when Bronn fought the guy for Tyrion in the Eerie and he did it with Rhaegar. Hes sending the message that playing fair only gets you so far

Pretty sure Robb's lack of honor is what got him killed. RW is a result of him choosing lust over honor. And I'm not really sure what rheagar and lyanna running off together when he's already married and she is engaged has to do with honor.

[Dareaper]

I may have misheard, and i think i need to rewatch to know, but it was either tryion or little finger that made a comment about joffery that was something like "well i hope he enjoys his wine and pie" I saw that as a huge for shadowing. But will admit i might of misheard and am misremembering that scene.

[Tyrion4President]

Pretty sure Robb's lack of honor is what got him killed. RW is a result of him choosing lust over honor. And I'm not really sure what rheagar and lyanna running off together when he's already married and she is engaged has to do with honor.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely. And Rhaegar died. "

[Sun]

Tywin is working with Bolton

Tywin "Theon Greyjoy killed the 2 Stark boys"

The only one who KNOWS this is Ramsey, thus Roose.

Not even Cat and Robb know this right now.

I didn't catch that clue. Well done!

[bobbybuilderton]

I've just found out the music during Theon and Robb executions is called Pay the Iron Price. Yep, Robb will pay the iron price for this decision...

Oi, I just noticed another parallel. Rodrik spits in Theon's face and gets hit for it, Karstark gets punched for calling Robb "boy"

[AliKat]

Just remember in the books the Karstark men had already departed Riverrun before Robb killed their lord. In the show it happened after the fact. So to me that was another case of Robb doing it in the book made more sense than on the show because Robb did it honorably because they committed treason and betrayed his cause for justice by murdering innocent boys of his enemy's armies - much like the Targ children deaths that his father could never forgive Robert for allowing - and he did it knowing that Karstark had sent his men away beforehand. So Robb was screwed already in the book and decided to act with honor and behead him. On the show, he had more on the line and it looks like he took a stupid risk and lost the Karstark men just because he was pissed that Lord Karstark betrayed him. Something his mother had done and hadn't been killed for. In the books his wife and her family were not present but all of Robb's bannermen were there when Karstark were brought in and they all wanted Karstark's head but his mother, uncle, and great-uncle (Riverlords not Northmen) suggested him being a prisoner. In the show they should have made it so that the Karstark men had already left camp and Robb's bannermen from the North were supportive of it. Talisa should have stayed out of the conversation and allowed his mother to argue for compassion, because even though that seems wise now, if Catelyn did it before it could have been her own guilt talking because Karstark pretty much blamed the murders on her since she let Jaime go. Talisa arguing for him to be spared was just out of place since she doesn't even know Westerosi customs. I honestly think they want to show her as a peace loving hippy who wants no more death but surely they realize they can't do that - her husband is a king in a war. Not to mention the North is very strict with their honor and believe in justice. Robb's execution of Lord Karstark was justice despite the fact he lost men because of it. And the show didn't make that clear.

[Frumpus]

Considering Arya transforms into a full blooded assassin, I seriously doubt settling down with Gendry is what GRRM has in mind for her.

I also doubt Arya will ever return to Westeros. Her fate lies in whatever she's fated to do in Essos.

Robb's execution of Lord Karstark was justice despite the fact he lost men because of it. And the show didn't make that clear.

Justice is an arbitrary thing. If he's willing to execute Karstark purely in the name of justice, why didn't he execute his mother when she betrayed him?

It rightfully depicted his decision to off Karstark as one he did out of honour - which is one of his character flaws. Honour is a worthless attribute that people strive for. Honour is what caused him to marry Jeyne Westerling in the books even though he did not love her (he only slept with her out of grief). Rather than do the right thing - which was spare Karstark in order to not fragment his army - he did the wrong thing out of honour.

[Belacel]

It rightfully depicted his decision to off Karstark as one he did out of honour - which is one of his character flaws. Honour is a worthless attribute that people strive for. Honour is what caused him to marry Jeyne Westerling in the books even though he did not love her (he only slept with her out of grief). Rather than do the right thing - which was spare Karstark in order to not fragment his army - he did the wrong thing out of honour.

Good analysis. In another post, I pointed out that Robb's essential flaw, from which a cascade of bad or right decisions follow, was that he chose his heart over his head. But indeed, he married Jeyne because "it was the only honorable thing to do". His misrepresentation of what "honour" should be seems to be his major flaw. There would have been honour too in going through with the Frey wedding.

[AliKat]

Good analysis. In another post, I pointed out that Robb's essential flaw, from which a cascade of bad or right decisions follow, was that he chose his heart over his head. But indeed, he married Jeyne because "it was the only honorable thing to do". His misrepresentation of what "honour" should be seems to be his major flaw. There would have been honour too in going through with the Frey wedding.

Okay - there seems to be a recurring theme - Robb's honor gets him killed. Ned's honor gets him killed. Jon's honor is what got him stabbed. However, Rickon has no honor really because he's too young to understand the concept, Arya's honor has been driven out of her - yet she killed the NW guy because he deserted the NW, something she considered honorable. Lyanna possibly abandoned her honor leading to the war (if she ran away vs. was kidnapped). Benjen is honorable at the Wall and it might have led to his death. One person I'm not sure of is Sansa - does she have honor or is hers more duty and attempting to be 'good'. I see her and Cat as being more devoted to their duties than honor. Cat would be willing to act with dishonor if it meant protecting her family or her duty.

So is honor a good thing in GRRM's world? Yes it makes them the heroes and fans like them because they're really the 'good guys' but at the same time even Stark loyalists like myself will admit that Ned shouldn't have confronted Cersei - he should have put his family's safety before the realm and the honorable thing to do in regards to Cersei and her children. And I regret that Robb's honor in regards to Jeyne got him killed. So I find myself questioning if the Starks are not just a horrible cliche of bad things happening to good people and rooting for them is a) a vote for something FAIR in this world and b.) a lost cause because GRRM doesn't want to be fair, he wants to be realistic. And in the real world people like Cersei get ahead and people like Robb and Ned end up dead.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Okay - there seems to be a recurring theme - Robb's honor gets him killed. Ned's honor gets him killed. Jon's honor is what got him stabbed. However, Rickon has no honor really because he's too young to understand the concept, Arya's honor has been driven out of her - yet she killed the NW guy because he deserted the NW, something she considered honorable. Lyanna possibly abandoned her honor leading to the war (if she ran away vs. was kidnapped). Benjen is honorable at the Wall and it might have led to his death. One person I'm not sure of is Sansa - does she have honor or is hers more duty and attempting to be 'good'. I see her and Cat as being more devoted to their duties than honor. Cat would be willing to act with dishonor if it meant protecting her family or her duty.

So is honor a good thing in GRRM's world? Yes it makes them the heroes and fans like them because they're really the 'good guys' but at the same time even Stark loyalists like myself will admit that Ned shouldn't have confronted Cersei - he should have put his family's safety before the realm and the honorable thing to do in regards to Cersei and her children. And I regret that Robb's honor in regards to Jeyne got him killed. So I find myself questioning if the Starks are not just a horrible cliche of bad things happening to good people and rooting for them is a) a vote for something FAIR in this world and b.) a lost cause because GRRM doesn't want to be fair, he wants to be realistic. And in the real world people like Cersei get ahead and people like Robb and Ned end up dead.

With a few exceptions, it seems the consensus on this board is shifting toward honor being to blame for the demise of the Starks/those who have honor. I take issue there. It doesn't seem to me to be honor so much as legalism that dooms the Starks. A blind and excessive conformity to an idea is what got them killed. They firmly believed that "honor = x, and nothing else."

I took it as Martin showing us that blindly adhering to or following a 'good' principle, can cloud our judgement and maybe even corrupt us just as surely as can greed or lust or envy. The point being, as with Stannis, inflexibility leads to demise.

In regards to Catelyn -- I just REALLY hope we get her crawling towards him, spewing "I will kill you Walder Frey..."

[Logodnica]

Look at this tumblr post - perhaps you will see the parallel with the Theon scene:

http://bogdevils.tumblr.com/post/49155939472

The episode writer said in an interview that it was the only scene where they made fake rain. They obviously thought having the rain there would be important. So I have to agree it parallels Theon and foreshadows disaster for Robb

[Logodnica]

Thoros: "It's not getting any easier you know."

Dondarrion: "I know. Every time I come back -- I'm a bit less. Pieces of you get chipped away."

Arya: "Could you bring back a man without a head. Not six times -- just once?"

Thoros: "I don't think It works that way child."

That explains a whole hell of a lot. Clearly these men's hearts go out to her. But it also explains Dondarrion's decision not to die eight times, and Thoros' reluctance to bring back a too far gone Catelyn Stark. If this was in the books I missed it. But then again, I didn't know what was coming like I do now so I probably didn't give it the consideration it deserved.

Also making it clear they won't be able to bring back Robb, bc you know fans will be begging for him to be resurrected

[AliKat]

Also making it clear they won't be able to bring back Robb, bc you know fans will be begging for him to be resurrected

Robb was beheaded before they found Cat. Although someone on Tumblr was wanting Robb to be resurrected WITH Grey Wind's head rather than resurrecting Cat. *smh*