Is the R'hllor-Faith a threat like the Others?

[KOM]

1) If Rhllor is really a baddie, I wouldn't be surprised at all. But I don't think there's enough evidence to know *for sure.* It could also be that he just uses cruel malevolent ends in order to fight off a never-ending night.

2) Drowned God and CPR. If Aeron manages to summon a giant kraken to pull down Euron's ship I wouldn't be surprised either. (10% chance tho).

In gen, the whole idea of 'domains' and faiths/peoples waxing and waning in existence and power seems to be a cohesive way to see religions/magics in asoiaf. The COTF eventually uniting with trees and saying "their time is ending" seems to go along with this. But I'd say all this is still mostly sketchy.

[The Mother of The Others]

If the Westerosi enjoy their current culture, then yes. If they're bored with the Seven and ready to shop around for a religious upgrade, then the fire might have something to offer them. Interestingly, the fire god sales pitch will be perfectly timed now that it's SuperWinter and scary things really are out there in the night. This could be the season of change when Westeros shifts away from a religion that's sort of stale to one that addresses their needs better in a time of great crisis.

OMG! A major shift to Rhllor would work out great for Stannis! His huge foreign faith problem would go away and he'd be the king who made sense to the people!

But uh, if they want to remain who they are now as a people, then they basically do need to treat the R'hllor invasion as a threat too. A more insidious threat than the Others, because when the Others make Westeros desperate it's the fire god who will prey upon them by seeming to answer their desperate prayers.

[Hank Scorpio]

Fubar

[all swedes are racist]

...As to the Faith of the Seven burning weirwoods- you can't compare burning trees with burning people!

Hah, tell that that to Bloodraven

[LordStoneheart]

Always remember what GRRM said about Ice and Fire.

"Both'll kill ya."

If the Others are seen as bad that means Rhllor should be seen as the otherside of that.

I personally hate Rhllor. And the Drowned God, and the Seven. Especially the Seven. (digression: no woman should ever be prosecuted of the "crime of fornication." The Seven disgusts me and I hope ever Maester, Septon, Septa, sparrows die horrible. end of digression.)

[A Man Has Said]

In the real world I'm an atheist, so I would be skeptical of all religions, because they all rely to some degree on deception. How does one go from something that is a LIE to something that is good and true? But in the real world I also think that some religions are worse than others in that and other regards.

But on this forum, aren't we discussing the Westerosi world, and particularly the cues that GRRM gives us in the text to make these judgments?

I think that (for reasons beyond my comprehension) R'hllor imparts some magical power to those that believe in him.

But in most cases the power doesn't seem to do what the believer wants or expects.

So R'hllor is a false g0d in that respect.

We see people (well, mostly Mellisandre) do incredibly evil things in R'hllor's name,

from their point of view this is in the pursuit of 'good' results.

But, if the good results never come about, the net result is that R'hllor has caused evil, with no upside payback.

[mrunderhill]

I have often thought that R'hllor and the Great Other (I am presuming that he/she/it is the ice deity of the Others) were the two sides of the same religion, indeed, I think it is this world's version of the Roman god Janus, the two faced god.

Like God vs Satan, both sides of the same religious belief, but both thinking the 'other' is wrong in some respect.

God and Satan are not two sides of the same coin. They are not equals and in Christian theology ultimately nothing can happen without God allowing it.

I am not sure R'hllor and the other are two halves of the same god. I think they are just the two extremes of nature, both fighting for dominance. Westeros does not have a natural climate. There is no balance. Someone needs to balance the two forces or at least eliminate the two extremes.

[Rattleskirt]

R'hllor is not evil. R'hllor is doing what He can to save the world from the Great Other.

Not really. Thoros was sent to King's Landing to convert Aerys II but his (Thoros') juju was too weak.

Not really not really, as Thoros was sent to convert King Robert

[thecryptile]

Not really not really, as Thoros was sent to convert King Robert

thats the show, it was Aerys in the books 'cause Aerys was a pyromaniac

[The Mother of The Others]

hmmmmmm, tree metaphor:

okay, underneath the earth you've got the forest children living in the root systems of these giant trees. Like they're at the heart of everything. Ancient. What came first. Their elder earth magic is part of what "should be." They're the equivalent of that Corvinus guy from the vampire movies, the guy who predates the separation of vampires and werewolves into 2 different tribes. In Mr. Corvinus you had those two things united in a single creature. Then somehow magic shattered into things that shouldn't be.

Disclaimer: this tree metaphor describes the evolution of magic, and is not meant to imply humping took place between Ice, Fire, and Earth creatures.

The forest children's Weirwoods are the Roots. In place of vampires and werewolves, Westeros has Dragons and Others as the two separated species of Ice & Fire magic who've branched off from the original earth magic. Similar to if a weirwood trunk branched off into two major limbs just above ground level, so that the only remaining link between the two branchings is found below ground where the same Roots join both trunks together. Fire & Ice are linked, but only beneath the surface where casual observers like us can't see it with our mundane eyes. And the ghost of high heart isn't sharing any ancient secrets (yet!), so we remain in the dark.

We need to get past this above-ground conflict between Fire & Ice, where they only treat each other as aliens so it can only result in conflagration. We need to get below ground on this one. Down to the level where commonality once existed. That's where the hints may exist about how to get the elements properly aligned once more.

[PatchfaceTheFool]

I'm not sure why so many people are convinced of the existence of the Red God, or any of the gods at all.

We've seen Thoros, Melisandre, Pyat Pree, the Ghost of High Heart, Jaqen H'gar, Moqorro, Quaithe, Marwyn, Patchface, Mirri Maz Duur and many others (even Dany) performs things that can be considered magic. These people have very different faiths - some of them may not have a faith at all. So are we supposed to believe they're all correct because of their abilities?? Of course not.

The only reasonable explanation is that there are no gods. The ability of people to do magic does not prove the existence of any higher being.

The Old Gods are nothing but the greenseers and CotF. The red priests/priestesses should be considered similar to the warlocks of Quarth; they have their own system of magic based on certain beliefs. While their beliefs help them to work their magic, it doesn't mean that those beliefs are ultimately true.

I think it will be revealed that the Red God doesn't exist at all - just like there is no Seven, no Old Gods, no Drowned God, no great other etc. There is magic, however, which some people use to perpetuate various belief systems.

Also, on a slightly tangential note, GRRM said "consider me an atheist or agnostic. I find religion and spirituality fascinating. I would like to believe this isn’t the end and there’s something more, but I can’t convince the rational part of me that that makes any sense whatsoever." In a way, it kind of makes sense for him to write about multiple religions in a "they're all correct on some points, but they're all also wrong on other points" kind of way.