Is the R'hllor-Faith a threat like the Others?

[GoldenFleece]

I think R'hllor is one of the bad guys and is using people like Mel to achieve his ends. This begs a question though. If R'hllor is bad does that make AA bad too?

I am convinced that a religion is only as good and bad as their followers make it to be. In Europe millions of women will burnt at the stake for being witches, yet the people doing the burning thought they were doing a good thing. Same with some pagan faiths and human sacrifice.

[GoldenFleece]

Of course there is another option. Old Gods don't do anything. Seven don't do they anything. Drowned God doesn't do anything. Yet Red God has got lots of supernatural tricks up his sleeve. Or does he? There might not actually be a Red God at all, but a organised priesthood good at doing magic tricks for the ignorant masses to convert them and gain power. History has shown that Religion and Power often go hand in hand. Eg. Mel is trying to make Stannis into AA, giving him a glamour to his sword, even she admits in her POV she does conjurer tricks with powders hidden in secret pockets in her robes. She is trying to self-fulfil prophecy herself, not letting the divine to take place, or trusting that the divine to take place, she is a charismatic deceiver. She has some level for foresight, but so do other characters (who do not worship the Red God) in the history of Westeros and Essos.

[Bawn]

I am convinced that a religion is only as good and bad as their followers make it to be. In Europe millions of women will burnt at the stake for being witches, yet the people doing the burning thought they were doing a good thing. Same with some pagan faiths and human sacrifice.

Agreed but R'hllor is a being that is actually affecting the world of Westeros as far as a reader can see. Beric and Cat are resurrected by red priests using words of that faith. Mel is led to Jon Snow by her fires. There is no solid evidence of the 7 or the drowned god affecting things in the world (correct me if I'm wrong here). This leads me to believe that R'hllor is not a god, but something else. Possibly the great other.

[blood of the dragoon]

In the books, he tried to convert Robert too but Robert converted HIM to drinking and whoring.. LOL....

I'm not sure, but wasn't thoros a drunk before Robert became king? If so it seems he had more in common with him than aerys, which is pretty funny.

Also, i can't get down with a faith that's that comfortable with slavery. Personally i prefer the old gods, whose names are secret.

[SeanF]

Hard to say, I am on two minds about R'hllor. Obviously burning people alive is horrific to us nowadays, but Christianity did a lot of burning (and in some parts of the world still does) and some people still think of it as a "good" religion. The Andals (worshippers of the Seven) put to torch all the Weirwood Trees south of the Neck. In this series I do not think that there is a "good" faith or a "bad" faith, but good and bad people who interpret their own viewpoints on that God/Gods.

I don't think people do get burned alive in the name of any mainstream form of Christianity in this day and age. That aside, live burning is a very potent form of magic in Westeros and Essos. Daenerys hatches her dragons' eggs by burning Mirri Maz Duur alive; Stannis gets a fair wind to the wall, when Melisandre burns Lord Florent alive. R'hllor, like all the gods that are worshipped in the series, may or may not exist (I doubt if Martin will ever give a definitive answer). But magic, and the ability to harness magical powers by human sacrifice, most definitely does exist.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

I'm not sure, but wasn't thoros a drunk before Robert became king? If so it seems he had more in common with him than aerys, which is pretty funny.

Yeah, he was. It was after the Rebellion that the two of them became drinking buddies.

I don't think people do get burned alive in the name of any mainstream form of Christianity in this day and age. That aside, live burning is a very potent form of magic in Westeros and Essos. Daenerys hatches her dragons' eggs by burning Mirri Maz Duur alive; Stannis gets a fair wind to the wall, when Melisandre burns Lord Florent alive. R'hllor, like all the gods that are worshipped in the series, may or may not exist (I doubt if Martin will ever give a definitive answer). But magic, and the ability to harness magical powers by human sacrifice, most definitely does exist.

No, but there is a certain other religion that seems to be a lot about killing the infidels while still proclaiming that it is peaceful. Worst Christianity has is a bunch of trolls and pedophiles. BUT LET'S NOT GET BOGGED DOWN IN REAL-LIFE RELIGIOUS TALK.

Is it the Red Faith a threat? Depends. If you don't convert, sure. But if you are a convert, you're pretty peachy, as far as I know. I mean, I'd love to be a Red Priest. Setting shit on fire all the time, swinging flaming swords. Red may not be the best colour on me, but I do look good in it.

[GoldenFleece]

I don't think people do get burned alive in the name of any mainstream form of Christianity in this day and age. That aside, live burning is a very potent form of magic in Westeros and Essos. Daenerys hatches her dragons' eggs by burning Mirri Maz Duur alive; Stannis gets a fair wind to the wall, when Melisandre burns Lord Florent alive. R'hllor, like all the gods that are worshipped in the series, may or may not exist (I doubt if Martin will ever give a definitive answer). But magic, and the ability to harness magical powers by human sacrifice, most definitely does exist.

That's the point though, are all those acts DIVINE or MAGIC? Magic without a doubt is present in the world of ASOIAF. But is the DIVINE present in this world. Red Priests can do magic, they say it is because of their God - but is it. Oh and btw yes, Christians are still burning "witches" to this day in Africa. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8119201.stm . There are videos of these burnings if anyone has the stomach to watch them.

[thecryptile]

I think the shadowbaby is evidence of a presence, an entity, not some astral projection of Mels. Whether this entity is Divine or Demonic depends on if you're part of the Red Cult. The Old Gods are present in the world as well, and we know them to be the greenseers.

[SeanF]

Is it the Red Faith a threat? Depends. If you don't convert, sure. But if you are a convert, you're pretty peachy, as far as I know. I mean, I'd love to be a Red Priest. Setting shit on fire all the time, swinging flaming swords. Red may not be the best colour on me, but I do look good in it.

Much depends on whether the Red Priests do actually intend to tell the followers of other religions that they can turn or burn. Contrary to popular belief , Melisandre doesn't do this. She persuades Stannis and some of his followers to abandon the Faith, and to destroy the Sept at Dragonstone, and she desecrates some weirwoods in the North. What she doesn't do is to try to prevent unbelievers from practising the Faith, or worshipping the Old Gods, and indeed, recognises that unbelievers can serve the fight against the Others.

[mrunderhill]

Yes for me the Red Faith and the Others are just two sides of the same coin. The way Fire and Ice are two sides of the same coin in the story. An eternal summer is no better than an eternal winter. Both sides bring people back to life as zombies. I think both will need to be opposed. I don't think Azor Ahai is going to be a hero either. My gut feeling is the fall of Valyria had a lot to do with them trying to create the eternal summer.

[Harroway]

mrunderhill> Agreed, the heart of winter is one side of hell, the heart of fire is the other one. Note that the follower of the Sevens mention blazing hells and a freezing hells.

I suppose the Old Gods would stand for Life itself -Jon Snow once says something like "Bone and blood, the life", which makes them less dangerous perhaps.

[Ser Ennepe]

I am convinced that a religion is only as good and bad as their followers make it to be. In Europe millions of women will burnt at the stake for being witches, yet the people doing the burning thought they were doing a good thing. Same with some pagan faiths and human sacrifice.

In Europe around 40.000 to 60.000 people (they were burning both men and women) were burned, the witch stuff was just used as an excuse to get rid off annoying people. And no they didn´t thought they did a good thing, they thought "finally the old bastard is gone"

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

It's unclear how much of the Red Priests' magic is linked to their faith and how much is actually ordinary shadowbinding and blood magic, which doesn't require any allegiance to the Red God. The only exception in my mind is Thoros' resurrections of Beric Dondarian and Dondarian's resurrection of Cat. Dondarian couldn't have known blood magic, and Thoros' resurrections didn't require a blood sacrifice. Something else had to be going on here. It's also interesting to me that Thoros wasn't even particularly pious, and he's not much of a human sacrificer.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Yes for me the Red Faith and the Others are just two sides of the same coin. The way Fire and Ice are two sides of the same coin in the story. An eternal summer is no better than an eternal winter. Both sides bring people back to life as zombies. I think both will need to be opposed. I don't think Azor Ahai is going to be a hero either. My gut feeling is the fall of Valyria had a lot to do with them trying to create the eternal summer.

I have often thought that R'hllor and the Great Other (I am presuming that he/she/it is the ice deity of the Others) were the two sides of the same religion, indeed, I think it is this world's version of the Roman god Janus, the two faced god.

Like God vs Satan, both sides of the same religious belief, but both thinking the 'other' is wrong in some respect.

[Whitering]

Mel may have burned Edric but didn't get the chance, other than that she has burned men bound for, or deserving of, death and saved a guy who was both (like Mance or not, he sent men who killed innocent people).

So Mel, may be a bit misguided, but we don't have any evidence that the priests just burn people willy nilly. Victorian did that and his red priest didn't say, dude, you missed my point, but he may not have wanted to upset Vic, cuz he's a psycho.

Thoros isn't into burning people and claims to have found his faith again, Brienne and Co. were hanged, not burned. While the R'hollor people love fire, how many innocent burnings have we seen? Just Vic's with an attempt at one by Mel. Mel thinks she is doing it to save the world though. She certainly doesn't seem like she would burn 7 lovely slaves alive just because.

I think almost all religions are evil, but R'Hollor's is no more evil than most. The reps of the Seven want to try a single woman for having sex (well, and for having the previous high septon murdered), and now we see that those who worshiped the Old Gods did human sacrifice as well. That's just religious folks for you. Now Christians in our part of the world just boycott movies, tv shows and gay marriage, but you don't have to look back very far to see the Witch Trials and things like the Spanish Inquisition.

Don't get me started on the other religions.

[Lion of Judah]

I'm not convinced it's a threat, but I don't trust it's acolytes. The Red faith will have a very difficult time being accepted in the kingdoms though, as evident after the brotherhood saved that town from the bloody mummers.

[Black Crow]

I think R'hllor is one of the bad guys and is using people like Mel to achieve his ends. This begs a question though. If R'hllor is bad does that make AA bad too?

Shoving a sword through your loving wife's heart is not what the good guys do...

Yes, R'hllor (or at least the worship of R'hllor) is just as much of a threat as the Otherlanders; just listen to Master Benero and think carefully about what he says.

As to dualism and the Great Other, is the reason why his name may never be spoken because it is... R'hllor.

[Whitering]

Shoving a sword through your loving wife's heart is not what the good guys do...

Yes, R'hllor (or at least the worship of R'hllor) is just as much of a threat as the Otherlanders; just listen to Master Benero and think carefully about what he says.

As to dualism and the Great Other, is the reason why his name may never be spoken because it is... R'hllor.

Assisted suicide to save the world is not necessarily a bad thing, especially given that he tried many different courses of action first.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

As to dualism and the Great Other, is the reason why his name may never be spoken because it is... R'hllor.

Lol, that's exactly what I think, I just never got to posting it.

I would love Jon Snow to make Mel answer that in front of Stannis once he has returned from being Ghost.

[superlynx]

Like God vs Satan, both sides of the same religious belief, but both thinking the 'other' is wrong in some respect.

I had something similar in mind. Not exactly god vs satan since god ist the good side in this comparison, at least for religous people. I thought both sides are evil, with the old faith beeing the force of life between fire and ice.