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Lisbeth Sand

Stannis hasn't learned his lesson.

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Late in ASoS we learn that Stannis has come to the Wall to held defend the realm from Others. He mentions that this is an important mission for him, and Davos taught him that it was important to do something great in order to win favor for the throne. His words were something along the lines of, "I put the cart before the horse. I was trying to win the throne to save the realm, when I should have been saving the realm to win the throne."

I was under the impression that he'd learned something important. He's got a tough road ahead of him when it comes to staking his claim, and as long as the Lannisters hold the IT he won't become officially king just because he says he is.

So at the start of DwD, I was disappointed to find he was still holding on to the same attitude that the realm was his. He reacts with shock and anger to find that most of the northern lords are still sworn to King Stark. (Whether news reached them late, or they're waiting for his heir to arise, remains to be seen). Until recently the north was in rebellion. They didn't care who sat the IT, because whoever sat the IT didn't care for their problems. The cultural divide is another factor. Stannis is a Storm Lord who just arrived at the Wall, and won ONE victory against a ragtag band of misfits. Robb Stark was a northern lord's heir with a traditionally honored name, and who won every battle on the field. Is it so shocking that the northern lords would still declare for the Starks? What did he expect to happen?

Stannis already knew that winning favor would be difficult, but he still seems to be taking the throne for granted. Has he learned nothing from his previous battles? The IT was technically taken by conquest. Until he figures out how to earn back what is admittedly his by rights, I don't think he'll get what he wants.

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He is just strict with himself.

Not with himself as much as everyone around him. Being strict with himself would be to say "suck it up, Stannis, you've got a tough battle ahead of you." Not "Why are these rebellious lords not listening to me!?"

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He is learning. Slowly, but surely. And it's Jon Snow who teaches him how to win the mountain clans - knowing, presumably, that fairly similar tactics would be needed to win the rest of the great northern houses. Treat them with respect, as equals, and be prepared to do things for them. So after recruiting an army from the clans, he wins back Deepwood Motte for the Glovers (who were already - along with Manderly - prepared to support him if he would put a Stark back in Winterfell.) The Mormonts have also joined him. People like the Tallharts, Flints and possibly even Lady Dustin may soon follow. Half the Umbers under Mors Crowfood are already with him: at first Stannis would have rejected them because of their condition that their kin, under Hother Whoresbane, be pardoned if the Boltons are beaten, but he has since been persuaded to accept their allegiance (knowing that Hother's group are only there under constraint, since the Greatjon is captive - the moment he is either free OR dead, they will desert the Boltons.)

If Harrion Karstark escapes from captivity or is released, then he will probably have the Karstarks turn against the Boltons too: after all, he knows exactly who gave the orders that led to his capture (twice). And, given that he has been a prisoner, he may well have strong opinions on the subject of murdering prisoners of war - i.e. that it should not be done - and have to (reluctantly) accept that Robb Stark was right to execute his father for it.

So, although he's learning slowly, and somewhat reluctantly, Stannis is getting things right. The question is whether he will get *enough* right in time before the Others arrive.

And indeed, if he does succeed in winning the north, he gives credit where it is properly due, to the advice of Jon Snow. (Who, after all, may still end up as the Stark in Winterfell, if Robb did indeed officially legitimize him in his will - and if he is released from the Night Watch vows on a technicality of his own actual death but is brought back somehow by Mellisandre. (If he *survives* rather than being brought back from death, then obviously the vows which last "till the day of my death" will still be valid, to be released from them he has to actually die.)

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He's frustrated. Why wouldn't he be? He just (Read: In his mind.) saved them from the possibility of having Wildlings running rampant in their backyard. Shouldn't they be thankful? At least a little? He took a battered and beaten army to the North to win the support of these people and push back the threat that would have hit them first, and they continue supporting a dead boy?

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He's frustrated. Why wouldn't he be? He just (Read: In his mind.) saved them from the possibility of having Wildlings running rampant in their backyard. Shouldn't they be thankful? At least a little? He took a battered and beaten army to the North to win the support of these people and push back the threat that would have hit them first, and they continue supporting a dead boy?

The realm has been focused on what's going on in the south since the story started. Even the northmen aren't all that concerned about the wildlings. Stannis should know this, as he has been an important part of (and even an instigator) in the southern war.

It strikes me as odd that a guy like Stannis would think things would come easy to him. He seemed irresponsible for the start. "Hey! I don't need a big army! I've got with woman in red with fire magic!"

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Smart thing for Stannis to is wait for the Bolton's to come to him rather than laying seige. As is already known, the Freys and Manderleys are leaving Winterfell as separate armies... being such each will carry their own supplies....considering the Manderleys brought the majority of supplies for "the Bolton force" with them there shouldn't be a great hue and when they take the majority of their supplies them...thus leavinng Winterfell with meager provisions

At the end of it all the Freys will lose "the Battle of the Lakes" less thru Stannis's tactical planiing and more thru the to make sure Stannis's army has some fish their bellies...the seige of Winterfell will be a nonstarter because of short supplies and little if any loyalty to the Bolton's will make extremely difficult to hold thr castle..it will all be lost as the Frey drown or suffer hypothermia post "Battle of the Lakes"

Hey, as an added plus the Queen's men will be well stocked for sacrificial burnings...It all goes to Stannis not thru tactics or strategy but thru pure luck and R'hllor looking kindly at his plight

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The end is near for Stannis. Stannis is out of the loop in his own "rebellion/quest for the IR". Melisandre is doing things behind his back without his knowledge. With the fake Mance (Rattleshirt) being burned and then sending real Mance off on a secret mission to try and get in Jon SNow's good graces. Plus, we know Stannis is not really Azor Ahai because he doesn't truly have Lightbringer. She can't even see him in her flames anymore. Stannis to her was nothing more than a stepping stone to try and get what she believes is her mission for Rhollor. She may have one times hoped Stannis was the man, but she seems to be ready to kick him to the curb in order to get Jon to her side. Since Stannis needs her to win (since without her he would have been history a long time ago) he seems to be a lost cause.

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He is learning. Slowly, but surely. And it's Jon Snow who teaches him how to win the mountain clans - knowing, presumably, that fairly similar tactics would be needed to win the rest of the great northern houses. Treat them with respect, as equals, and be prepared to do things for them. So after recruiting an army from the clans, he wins back Deepwood Motte for the Glovers (who were already - along with Manderly - prepared to support him if he would put a Stark back in Winterfell.) The Mormonts have also joined him. People like the Tallharts, Flints and possibly even Lady Dustin may soon follow. Half the Umbers under Mors Crowfood are already with him: at first Stannis would have rejected them because of their condition that their kin, under Hother Whoresbane, be pardoned if the Boltons are beaten, but he has since been persuaded to accept their allegiance (knowing that Hother's group are only there under constraint, since the Greatjon is captive - the moment he is either free OR dead, they will desert the Boltons.)

If Harrion Karstark escapes from captivity or is released, then he will probably have the Karstarks turn against the Boltons too: after all, he knows exactly who gave the orders that led to his capture (twice). And, given that he has been a prisoner, he may well have strong opinions on the subject of murdering prisoners of war - i.e. that it should not be done - and have to (reluctantly) accept that Robb Stark was right to execute his father for it.

So, although he's learning slowly, and somewhat reluctantly, Stannis is getting things right. The question is whether he will get *enough* right in time before the Others arrive.

And indeed, if he does succeed in winning the north, he gives credit where it is properly due, to the advice of Jon Snow. (Who, after all, may still end up as the Stark in Winterfell, if Robb did indeed officially legitimize him in his will - and if he is released from the Night Watch vows on a technicality of his own actual death but is brought back somehow by Mellisandre. (If he *survives* rather than being brought back from death, then obviously the vows which last "till the day of my death" will still be valid, to be released from them he has to actually die.)

.....

i know this is not Jon Snow thread...but can't the king superscede the vows he took...He only took those vows because he was bastard born.....once legitimized by a king....and perhaps some religious fenagling.....the vows could be superceded

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.....

i know this is not Jon Snow thread...but can't the king superscede the vows he took...He only took those vows because he was bastard born.....once legitimized by a king....and perhaps some religious fenagling.....the vows could be superceded

He tried. Multiple times.

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The end is near for Stannis. Stannis is out of the loop in his own "rebellion/quest for the IR". Melisandre is doing things behind his back without his knowledge. With the fake Mance (Rattleshirt) being burned and then sending real Mance off on a secret mission to try and get in Jon SNow's good graces. Plus, we know Stannis is not really Azor Ahai because he doesn't truly have Lightbringer. She can't even see him in her flames anymore. Stannis to her was nothing more than a stepping stone to try and get what she believes is her mission for Rhollor. She may have one times hoped Stannis was the man, but she seems to be ready to kick him to the curb in order to get Jon to her side. Since Stannis needs her to win (since without her he would have been history a long time ago) he seems to be a lost cause.

lets not underestimate Stannis so easily....he has proven to be a good commander and a very resilient one at that.....He's not so easy to get rid of. Even in losing the battle of the blackwater, he inflicted tremendous loss on kings landing.... a weaker man would have left Winterfell a long time ago rather than brave the harsh snows and cold of the north.....lets not count him out just yet.....maybe he'll rip a couple of pages from Roberts book and do some things that are completely unpredictable and un Stannis like to win.....

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In no way am I trying to be difficult or argumentative, but what lesson was Stannis supposed to have learned?

I might not be delving too much into his character, but from what I've read (and sometimes I have been guilty of reading between the lines), I've come to believe a few things about Stannis that I admire, even though I don't like him.

1. He's never grown past the trauma of watching his parents death-by-shipwreck.

2. He tried to save a damaged hawk (and suffered being mocked for it), but did save Patchface when others wanted to end his suffering.

3. He dislikes/distrusts women in general, including Melisandre.

4. He's an atheist. He goes along with the whole Red God thing as a means to an end, but he doesn't have faith.

5. He never wanted the Iron Throne. He believes it is his duty, as a true blooded Baratheon, because the only alternative is a false Baratheon. I certainly don't go along with what he did to Renly (one of the reasons why I dislike him).

6. He never liked Ned Stark (didn't consider him a friend), but he admired the man, because they both shared some basic principles.

7. He's willing to listen to sound advice (Davos and Jon). The facts as they are, not how he wants them to be.

In the end, he's everything Robert wasn't, which means he has few friends, he's self-disciplined, he is troubled by the thought of having to kill a child, he understands the importance and drawbacks of having to borrow money...the list is endless.

He's no different than any southron in the north. The Northmen (and women) live their lives based on ancient principles, not rules and regulations made up by people surrounded by long summers, flowers, and exotic foodstuffs. Jon Snow helped him understand that the Northmen will not bow/kneel to anyone they don't respect. Stannis knows he needs their respect, but he's never been in a situation where he's had to earn it before, so he's struggling.

As far as he knows, Manderly killed the one man he trusts above all, his men are dying (and some are being eaten)...he's in a hell of a bind. If he doesn't save the North, it doesn't matter who sits on the Iron Throne. He realized that.

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This is why Jon had to set him straight about the ways of the north.....and he did listen to his advice....he's not completely oblivious to his hopes of gaining the throne rest with gaining the favor of the north....they're the only ones left with an ax to grind against the lannisters...well the Dornish as well....but they'd never side with Stannis.....so his hopes rest with the north and there he is .....freeing deepwood motte and now on the verge of try ing to free the seat of house stark.

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I think Stannis does learn. His character has progressed since he was first introduced, but as they say he is iron, and he will break before he bends. When you keep that in mind, you know any change he will go through is not going to be easy.

Though I never actually believed he does not want the throne. It is possible for a heir to step down and let the next in line take over (i.e Aemon). However in his situation, it was never going to happen. Renly was in full rebellion and openly disregarded and even dismissed Stannis' claim, whereas when Aemon stepped down his brother wasn't looking to screw him over in the first place. So yes, I do believe Stannis doesn't want the throne on some level, but I also think he does. For many reasons. He wants to bring justice to King's Landing, he wants to "scour the court clean" and get rid of all the corruption. He wants to run things "right", and I can't say I blame him. And in order to do all those things, he has to be king.

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In no way am I trying to be difficult or argumentative, but what lesson was Stannis supposed to have learned?

He's no different than any southron in the north. The Northmen (and women) live their lives based on ancient principles, not rules and regulations made up by people surrounded by long summers, flowers, and exotic foodstuffs. Jon Snow helped him understand that the Northmen will not bow/kneel to anyone they don't respect. Stannis knows he needs their respect, but he's never been in a situation where he's had to earn it before, so he's struggling.

As far as he knows, Manderly killed the one man he trusts above all, his men are dying (and some are being eaten)...he's in a hell of a bind. If he doesn't save the North, it doesn't matter who sits on the Iron Throne. He realized that.

Yes, he knows he has to have the North. But Jon, as pointed out, told him how to win the clans over. Without Jon to help him with the North, Stannis is done.

Davos tried numerous times to get Stannis to listen to sense. Davos told him the Southern lords were not with him, and Stannis was flummoxed (just as he was when the North refused to bend the knee). Stannis chose to attack KL anyway -- costing Davos sons. Davos has taken mighty risks to do the right thing for his king. Sending Robert's son off was a huge risk. I think that Stannis might have been relieved that the kiddo did not have to burn, but he would not show it. As pointed out, Stannis and most everyone believes Stannis dead. A voice of reason stilled.

I do not think Stannis learns from others or by his mistakes. He never learned how to laugh, it even distressed his father. He must have gotten the idea he was the Baratheon who had to be grounded and sober between Robert and Renley. I think "Being Stannis" is so ingrained he cannot budge to save himself.

I think he is done anyway. Mel seems to be off him, if she believes what her fires are showing her.

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Stannis is a stubborn, wilful, intransigent sort of fellow. They don't tend to move much with the breeze. Very much a "my way or the highway" sort of chap. He'll be like that until the moment he dies.


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