Littlefingers Gambit

[Mladen]

Yes i do believe, did you even bother to read my post...? I said twice already, the same thing would happen if she never told Cersei BUT the same thing would also happen if she told and some of the others wouldn't. So yes, in that way her information was as vital as the others', it's just that pretty much every person in KL seemed to inform on Ned, so he was screwed all the way.

Oh, he was screwed long before Sansa ran off to Cersei. I understand what you try to say, I just disagree with it. For me, Sansa`s information was the least important, but it is impotant to her, because she felt like betraying her family and trusting the wrong person, and she sees where that led her. The information is important because it will shape Sansa`s transformation into the player. She will always remember what happened when you trust the wrong person

[The Fallen]

OK, let we compare to what others brought Cersei and what Sansa told her.

1. Janos Slynt told her about Golden cloaks and gave her opportunity to buy them from her

2. LF told her everything Ned planned with him

3. Varys certainly added several pieces of information, just to make sure he`ll survive

And then Sansa told her that her father is planning to send the girls away.

Do you actually think that Sansa`s information was the key of Cersei`s action? Not Golden cloaks, not LF`s trap or Varys` game? The fact Ned`s daughters are leaving the town. Do you see it?

Except that Sansa was first, not last. It was so crucial for this reason. If Sansa and Arya had left then there's one less bargaining chip. Ned still gets arrested, but the Starks aren't handcuffed. Ned can't be forced to admit treason by threatening the life of his daughter. Which means he stands trial. Do the Lannisters want that trial to take place? Or he can ask for Trial by Combat.

Also, if events unfold the same way, then the Starks have Jaime in their clutches. They kill Ned and bye-bye Jaime.

Now do you see why Sansa going to Cersei was so detrimental to the Stark cause?

Edited for grammar.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

Oh, he was screwed long before Sansa ran off to Cersei. I understand what you try to say, I just disagree with it. For me, Sansa`s information was the least important, but it is impotant to her, because she felt like betraying her family and trusting the wrong person, and she sees where that led her. The information is important because it will shape Sansa`s transformation into the player. She will always remember what happened when you trust the wrong person

Kk i guess we will agree to disagree then. Will you at least agree the iron throne belongs to Stannis? By right? :/

[The Fourth Head]

Maybe the ending will be a toboggan ride of downhill chaos as the Others strongly motivate everyone to kick it in gear.

Yes. I fail to see how LF will scheme an army out of the Vale when the way into the Vale is already frozen shut. The entire Vale could be frozen in, isolated, and fair game for the Others.

[Mladen]

Except that Sansa was first, not last. It was so crucial for this reason. If Sansa and Arya had left then there's one less bargaining chip. Ned still gets arrested, but the Starks aren't handcuffed. Ned can't be forced to admit treason by threatening the life of his daughter. Which means he stands trial. Do the Lannisters want that trial to take place? Or he can ask for Trial by Combat.

Also, if events unfold the same way, then the Starks have Jaime in their clutches. They kill Ned and bye-bye Jaime.

Now do you see why Sansa going to Cersei was so detrimental to the Stark cause?

Edited for grammar.

“Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt’s gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he’d written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans...”

Clash of Kings, Tyrion I

And here it clearly states that Sansa`s information came the last. And we know what sort of information Sansa told. Just that her father is sending her and Arya back to Winterfell. So, LF, Slynt and Varys were the key, not Sansa.

Kk i guess we will agree to disagree then. Will you at least agree the iron throne belongs to Stannis? By right? :/

:). The throne maybe belongs to Stannis, but who cares about such trivialities like rights and claims?

[WardenOfTheNerds]

And here it clearly states that Sansa`s information came the last. And we know what sort of information Sansa told. Just that her father is sending her and Arya back to Winterfell. So, LF, Slynt and Varys were the key, not Sansa.

:). The throne maybe belongs to Stannis, but who cares about such trivialities like rights and claims?

I know i said we will agree to disagree but let me only point out that the in the quote Cersei says "We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans.." indicating it was pretty important that Sansa told her. At least in Cersei's opinion.

[Colonel Green]

indicating it was pretty important that Sansa told her. At least in Cersei's opinion.

Which I really don't understand at all, to be honest (though Cersei isn't exactly a great judge of things). The Goldcloaks were the decisive factor; as long as the Lannisters had them, nothing else would have mattered, and since they were Ned's agents Cersei should have known about Ned's plans from them and Littlefinger whether or not Sansa said anything. In terms of the coup itself, which is what Cersei is talking about, I don't really see how Sansa's information made any difference (indeed, the show removed Sansa's actions and absolutely nothing changed).

It possibly aided in stopping the Stark household from leaving, which has implications for later, though you would think that Cersei would have sent people to deal with Ned's family regardless (though Cersei is a moron, so....).

[Mladen]

I know i said we will agree to disagree but let me only point out that the in the quote Cersei says "We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans.." indicating it was pretty important that Sansa told her. At least in Cersei's opinion.

In Cersei`s opinion, perhaps, but was it indeed crucial? Cersei isn`t the sharpest mind of Westeros, so the alleged importance should be questioned. I don`t take away Sansa`s part here, but I think many people exaggerate here. I even read that Sansa was responsible for her father`s demise and death, which is ridiculous by all accounts. I think GRRM had done thois `betrayal` for more than one reason, and one must be Lyanna.

[The Fallen]

And here it clearly states that Sansa`s information came the last. And we know what sort of information Sansa told. Just that her father is sending her and Arya back to Winterfell. So, LF, Slynt and Varys were the key, not Sansa.

That's simply the order in which Cersei decided to tell Tyrion of what happened with regards to Ned. That's not a chronological order. You have to go to AGoT for an accurate timeline. And Sansa clearly runs off to Cersei as soon as she finds out. The planning with Littlefinger and and Littlefinger getting Slynt involved happen after. Remember, Ned decided to send Sansa and Arya home and makes the arrangements before he confronts Cersei. Sansa's information is what forces Cersei to act earlier than even she wanted.

And again. Sansa getting herself kidnapped was a big hindrance to the Stark cause.

Which I really don't understand at all, to be honest (though Cersei isn't exactly a great judge of things). The Goldcloaks were the decisive factor; as long as the Lannisters had them, nothing else would have mattered, and since they were Ned's agents Cersei should have known about Ned's plans from them and Littlefinger whether or not Sansa said anything. In terms of the coup itself, which is what Cersei is talking about, I don't really see how Sansa's information made any difference (indeed, the show removed Sansa's actions and absolutely nothing changed).

It possibly aided in stopping the Stark household from leaving, which has implications for later, though you would think that Cersei would have sent people to deal with Ned's family regardless (though Cersei is a moron, so....).

Cersei is right in that having Sansa allowed them to control Ned. With Sansa and Arya safe in Winterfell Ned doesn't care about losing his own life. He would never cop to being a traitor and he would be given a trial. If they kill Ned than the Starks can execute Jaime. But with Sansa as hostage, we see that Ned is forced to admit to being a traitor, he's killed and Jaime is still walking around.

[Mladen]

That's simply the order in which Cersei decided to tell Tyrion of what happened with regards to Ned. That's not a chronological order. You have to go to AGoT for an accurate timeline. And Sansa clearly runs off to Cersei as soon as she finds out. The planning with Littlefinger and and Littlefinger getting Slynt involved happen after. Remember, Ned decided to send Sansa and Arya home and makes the arrangements before he confronts Cersei. Sansa's information is what forces Cersei to act earlier than even she wanted.

Actually, again, it was the last piece. Sansa went to Cersei the morning attacks began, on the very same day, Ned confronted Cersei and Joffrey in Throne room. All arrangements were already done. Here`s the quote:

She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn’t loved Joffrey as much as she did. “He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn’t listen.” The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King’s Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly... only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

As you can see, entire plot was already completed when Sansa that morning came to Cersei.

And again. Sansa getting herself kidnapped was a big hindrance to the Stark cause.

So, she got herself kidnapped. Excuse me for saying this, but this line of yours is one of the most stupid lines I have ever read on this forum.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Littlefingers current agenda, as far as he has revealed to Sansa which basically means it is half true, but half withheld is that he is trying to Marry Sansa Stark, heir to the North and the Riverlands, to Harry the Heir for a re-taking of the North, and joining 3 powerful kingdoms into an alliance under Sansa and Harry.

Personally I believe Littlefinger will either sabotage Harry and try to marry Sansa, gaining a fragment of control himself, but he has, until this point been a background player and not personally involved in the conflict. If he does try to off harry, I dont see him doing it like he murdered Lysa Arynn or Sweetrobin, an old lady and a sickly young child against a man are little contest, but Harry is a knight strong enough to beat every other squire in a melee at Runestone, and earn Bronze Yohan Royces personal knighting - I dont see Littlefinger trying to overpower him and succeeding. Maybe he will use poison like he did on Joffery, but he would have to wait till after they were married, and for an appropriate opportunity after he called the Banners under Sansa to ensure they all respond, and even then they might disband.

So killing Harry is very risky, and littlefinger dosent like Risk. It means he probably has something else planned, I have no ideas what he will try to pull, but any insight into the topic would be very helpful and interesting to read. I have read over quite a few topics, but none are dedicated to Littlefingers plan of action purely in relation to Harry/Sansa/Armies of the Vale.

on the first paragraph in vino veritas

on the second and third Lf is a a gambler at heart he Relies on risks

He is a sickly young child, Littlefinger will give him an Overdose of medication, the Lords Declarent wont do anything, Lady Waynwood has Harry/Sansa on the cards, she wont stand up to him, Lyn Corbray is in his pocket, with coin and boys, he has named one of the others, who escapes my mind Lord of the Gate and secured his aid. Only Yohan and Knight of the Ninestars remain unswayed. One is a minor house with a famous name, the other is the largest Vale bannerman.

well nestor and myranda might be spies for bronze yohn and there thethe very big spanner in form of the mountain klans

(the lords of the vale and the clans of the mountains are teaching Lf a very deadly lessons play by the rules or become free game)

...

But back to the OP, LF's plans have never made sense to me. The one thing I'm sure of is that LF only looks out for himself, and unless he can gain something out of the Sansa & Harry union it won't be happening.

they dont appear to make sense because to metaphoricly speak he doesn't play chess or go. he plays roulette

[Lord Damian]

Littlefinger will have no power once sweetrobin dies. His cling to power now is quite dubious. The Vale lords despise him and only because he tricked them with a "guests rights and host rights" stunt is why he still there. Honestly, I think this Harry the heir is a red herring to buy himself more time. He really wants to marry Sansa himself. That should be obvious to everyone but he just cannot do that without removing some obstacles. He will settle instead for marrying her, if he can, to Aegon VI/Young Griff in exchange for Vale swords.

[Colonel Green]

The Vale lords despise him and only because he tricked them with a "guests rights and host rights" stunt is why he still there.

Subsequent to that, he's largely ameliorated the lords declarant to him, with the exception of Bronze Yohn.

Honestly, I think this Harry the heir is a red herring to buy himself more time.

A red herring for who?

[The Fallen]

Actually, again, it was the last piece. Sansa went to Cersei the morning attacks began, on the very same day, Ned confronted Cersei and Joffrey in Throne room. All arrangements were already done. Here`s the quote:

As you can see, entire plot was already completed when Sansa that morning came to Cersei.

I was wrong about the timeline, thanks for the correction.

So, she got herself kidnapped. Excuse me for saying this, but this line of yours is one of the most stupid lines I have ever read on this forum.

I've read a lot of stupid lines on this forum so I'm clearly surprised that mine gets the top honor. So if you don't mind, would you enlighten me on what exactly makes it the "most stupid"?

If you don't see how Sansa being a hostage affected what the Starks and Ned could and couldn't do then we can just stop here, there is no reason to continue.

And lastly, GRRM has stated that Sansa's actions were equally bad with regards to Ned's demise. Not more, nor less than Ned's decision's, Robert dying, being forced to deal with Littlefinger, etc...

[Mladen]

I've read a lot of stupid lines on this forum so I'm clearly surprised that mine gets the top honor. So if you don't mind, would you enlighten me on what exactly makes it the "most stupid"?

She got herself kidnapped. That part was one among stupid lines I usually read about Sansa.

[The Fallen]

She got herself kidnapped. That part was one among stupid lines I usually read about Sansa.

I know you were referring to that line. But why is it so stupid?

[finger]

Ah, but you have forgotten the most important person. The only one who has interest in protecting SR`s life. Her name begins with S.

Excuse my french, but who the hell is SR?

[Mladen]

I know you were referring to that line. But why is it so stupid?

I am sorry but to blame Sansa for her kidnapping, is like blaming Bran for falling from that window. We can`t blame the victims here.

[Mladen]

Excuse my french, but who the hell is SR?

Sweetrobin - Robert Arryn, son of Jon and Lysa Arryn.

[The Fallen]

I am sorry but to blame Sansa for her kidnapping, is like blaming Bran for falling from that window. We can`t blame the victims here.

Well, Bran didn't fall from that window. He was pushed.

The reason this is said about Sansa is because she did exactly that. Her father told her that King's Landing was no longer safe. Even going so far as telling her not to leave their quarters. And told her that Joffrey wasn't good enough for her. So we can't say that Sansa didn't know.

As far as age goes, Arya is younger and she accepted it. So we can't use the excuse that she was just a kid.

Posters get upset when this is said about Sansa, but it's the truth.