Is indeed Sansa's infatuation with the Hound mutual?

[Éadaoin]

And as for shipping, I won`t tell whom I imagine Sansa to end up with since most likely I`ll be cruccified :)

I ship Sansa/happiness myself.

I find SanSan problematic in all honesty. I understand that she is attracted to him, yes, but she's still a child to me.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

No, I think Sandor would bleed and die for her, because he sees the best of him in her.

And as for shipping, I won`t tell whom I imagine Sansa to end up with since most likely I`ll be cruccified :)

I agree with this. But I must admit, I'm dying to know who you think she'll end up with.

[bbstark]

Thank you for this. You make me :blushing: :blushing: :blushing: once again.

This is not going to be modern day love story in which everything ends up with either marriage or some closure. There is a great chance that these two`s love story be something they feel but never act upon it.

His redemption arc is making him closer to her, her maturity make her closer to him. But, will GRRM lead them straight to some great romance? No, I think Sandor would bleed and die for her, because he sees the best of him in her.

And as for shipping, I won`t tell whom I imagine Sansa to end up with since most likely I`ll be cruccified :)

oh god... I know I come across like an angry harpy all so once in a while :D

sorry... (kind of), but I won't crucify you, I promise!

Anyways, I'm reading Milady of York's essay on Beauty/Beast right now, but I seem to have a different interpretation to it. I generally have a problem reconciling the idea that Sandor both is in love with Sansa AND treats Arya cruely and constantly taunts her.

This is quoted as a cruicial moment when Sandor admits to killing Mycah (which is the reason Arya hates him), yet he defends himself by claiming that he's not a complete monster:

“Because I hacked your little friend in two? I’ve killed a lot more than him, I promise you. You think that makes me some monster. Well, maybe it does, but I saved your sister’s life too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got. And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.”

ASOS,

So the bold part is what I've seen addressed before: he's clearly defending himself. The underlined part is what's out of place: I think it shows he isn't defending himself to Arya, since she has no clue what happened to Lollys (I'm not even sure she knows/remembers who Lollys is) . I maintain the point he's defending himself *to himself*. We are currently reading part of Sandor's inner dialogue. I don't see much evidence that he actually cares what Arya thinks (of him), at least not at this point.

This is also shown in a couple of lines before this paragraph where Arya bsically asks him why he'd kill his brother, and he asks her if she doesn't have a brother/sister she'd like to kill. He deduces from her exprssion that she doesn't get along with her sister, and he laughs. I think the comparison of the Arya/Sansa relationship to him wanting to kill Gregor is unkind (to say the least). He taunts her to such an extent, and most of it is for his own amusement. My interpretation isn't that he's defending himself (in the quote above) as wishful thinking, or some sort of hope that the Starks accept him ( since he's currently underway to give Arya to Catelyn) but that he's merely thinking about himself. Otherwise he'd care a lot more about what Arya think of him.

I ship Sansa/happiness myself.

THIS. Exactly this :)

[Éadaoin]

oh god... I know I come across like an angry harpy all so once in a while :D

sorry... (kind of), but I won't crucify you, I promise!

Nothing wrong with being an angry harpy. ;)

And yeah, ultimately I ship Sansa/happiness. I think it would be really interesting if she didn't end up in a relationship at all but instead is "married" to the realm she rules (if she ends up in a position of power.)

I also saw someone once suggest that Sansa be Westeros' first female romance novelist. That would be great too. :P

[bbstark]

Nothing wrong with being an angry harpy. ;)

And yeah, ultimately I ship Sansa/happiness. I think it would be really interesting if she didn't end up in a relationship at all but instead is "married" to the realm she rules (if she ends up in a position of power.)

I also saw someone once suggest that Sansa be Westeros' first female romance novelist. That would be great too. :P

Oh yeah... and then she writes a much loved novel "Realm and Responsibility" ... a story of an innocent young girl that sweetly gets swept off her feet by the perfect gentleman... then a great big misunderstanding happens, which is thankfully resolved, and they end up together afterall? ;) hehe

[Mladen]

oh god... I know I come across like an angry harpy all so once in a while :D

sorry... (kind of), but I won't crucify you, I promise!

Oh, no. Until I am 100% certain of my theory, and I am still checking it up, I am keeping to me and the fellow member. It`s his idea and I liked it. It`s blasphemy for the most fans. And it`ll be essay on my Wolf project so keep up there.

I ship Sansa/happiness myself.

I find SanSan problematic in all honesty. I understand that she is attracted to him, yes, but she's still a child to me.

I think Sansa will find some sort of peace and happinnes. I doubt GRRM has tragic end for her.

I agree with this. But I must admit, I'm dying to know who you think she'll end up with.

You are flattering me, my friend. I devote many of my hours analysing Sansa, so she became my area of expertise, but I could be totally wrong with this one.

[Raksha the Demon]

ugh this is one of those theories that will never grow on me. I love Sansa, and I can appreciate Sandor as a character, but nothing will ever wipe off the fact that when they met she was only 12 years old.

People tend to call Tyrion pedophile because he wanted to consummate the marriage with Sansa, expecting her to fulfill her duties, little child that she was... but somehow Sandor gets a pardon because Sansa's feelings for him are mutual? I can't get on that boat, sorry. It doesn't work that way. I find his attraction to her at best tragic, and at their worst, unspeakably perverse. And NO better than Tyrion's.

Also, I would find the argument that Sandor wants romance from Sansa, rather than just sex, a bit more believable if he had been kinder to her ONLY SISTER.... He couldn't even summon the least bit of kindness when he spoke of Sansa to Arya. I found that behavior disgusting, like ... what? He was pissed that he was stuck with the wrong Stark? the wolf bitch instead of his little bird? f*ck that ! Something about that just so rubs me the wrong way.

And btw. I highly doubt Sansa would think so highly of him if she'd had known how he treated her sis.

Arya is far more important in Sansa's life than Sandor... attraction comes and goes, but family is forever. If he'd had realized that, he would have behaved better.

I've read a lot through the beauty and beast posts, I think you guys did a great job with the analysis, but I also think this version is just far too dark and far too crappy for a happy ending. Some of the things that Sandor did are just unredeemable. sorry to rain on your parade SanSans, I just don't think this one's going to happen!

I do believe that Sandor and Sansa have strong, compelling feelings for each other; but that doesn't mean I think they will end up in a blacksmith's cottage (or a Bolton-free Winterfell) happily making wolf-pups; or even that they should. Sansa was 12 years old the last time she saw Sandor; and 13 when she was last known to think about him. For all she has been through, she is still a young girl, beginning to develop feelings of sexuality but not understanding those feelings. Sandor is a physically adult man with the emotional maturity of a teenager, and is, frankly, an unstable wreck. There are indications, i.e. his trying to goad Arya into killing him (and the inflammatory language he used, evidence of either self-loathing or despair, or both) and his probable sojourn (as of AFFC) as a gravedigger on the Quiet Isle (and the Elder Brother's words that the Hound died repentant, which can imply that the Hound persona is dead and Sandor Clegane is trying to find "a better way"). But Sandor has a long way to go before he could be a reliable partner to any woman; and he may not make it; I think he is a very damaged man. He would be high maintenance for any woman who loved him; and Sansa is too young and immature, at 13, to try to salvage him even if she wanted to, which she might if she was free and found him. Sandor might need ten years or more before he can lay his demons to rest; and I don't know if he can; he's got a bad temper, an addiction to violence as well as to alcohol, and some ghastly memories to haunt and confuse him.

I do think that Sansa and Sandor will meet again in ASoIaF. When they do; I'm not sure that it will be a sweepingly romantic moment. I think they have unfinished business. Sandor might die nobly saving her life; or save her life and get her to safety and then return to the Quiet Isle; or Sansa might save him (less likely, but not impossible). Or they might just talk. Speculating is fun; but we'll have to leave the resolution of the characters' relationship to GRRM. Hopefully he won't take too many more years to write it!

[bbstark]

I do believe that Sandor and Sansa have strong, compelling feelings for each other; but that doesn't mean I think they will end up in a blacksmith's cottage (or a Bolton-free Winterfell) happily making wolf-pups; or even that they should. Sansa was 12 years old the last time she saw Sandor; and 13 when she was last known to think about him. For all she has been through, she is still a young girl, beginning to develop feelings of sexuality but not understanding those feelings. Sandor is a physically adult man with the emotional maturity of a teenager, and is, frankly, an unstable wreck. There are indications, i.e. his trying to goad Arya into killing him (and the inflammatory language he used, evidence of either self-loathing or despair, or both) and his probable sojourn (as of AFFC) as a gravedigger on the Quiet Isle (and the Elder Brother's words that the Hound died repentant, which can imply that the Hound persona is dead and Sandor Clegane is trying to find "a better way"). But Sandor has a long way to go before he could be a reliable partner to any woman; and he may not make it; I think he is a very damaged man. He would be high maintenance for any woman who loved him; and Sansa is too young and immature, at 13, to try to salvage him even if she wanted to, which she might if she was free and found him. Sandor might need ten years or more before he can lay his demons to rest; and I don't know if he can; he's got a bad temper, an addiction to violence as well as to alcohol, and some ghastly memories to haunt and confuse him.

I do think that Sansa and Sandor will meet again in ASoIaF. When they do; I'm not sure that it will be a sweepingly romantic moment. I think they have unfinished business. Sandor might die nobly saving her life; or save her life and get her to safety and then return to the Quiet Isle; or Sansa might save him (less likely, but not impossible). Or they might just talk. Speculating is fun; but we'll have to leave the resolution of the characters' relationship to GRRM. Hopefully he won't take too many more years to write it!

I should probably clarify: I am not denying Sansa's romantic/sexual feelings toward him, I am questioning his feelings/intentions. If I remember correctly, even though he didn't coerce anything out of her, he was rather forceful toward her during the scene of the un-kiss. This suggests that he at least entertained the idea of sleeping with her. I find this repulsive, and even though Sansa's actions set him on a path of introspection that could help him choose a better life, be a better man, he has still at some point entertained the idea of forcing himself on a 13 year old girl.

I understand her sentiments toward him, considering this is probably the closest she has ever been to a man, and at this point she's already formed some good opinions of him. It doesn't surprise me whenever she has sexual/romantic thoughts that it's Sandor who comes up. It's the closest she has ever come to the experience.

This is the kind of distant/fantasy-like attraction girls have for movie stars. They aren't unhealthy as long as they are superficial and a phase, however if they were returned affections, it could certainly become very disturbing and unhealthy, very fast.

The best possible outcome for Sandor is redemption thanks to Sansa's influence, and for Sansa a better, clearer picture of a harsh world thanks to his advice.

Romance isn't a good outcome, and I find shipping the couple, at the very least, naive of the implications of a 30-something (I wanna say) man "falling in love" with a 12 year old (which she was when they first met)

[Prefiera de Gryfalco]

The thing to remember about Sandor is he is a highly trained soldier and killer groomed since he was a boy. He also seems to laugh often as a rather socially inappropriate reaction. Probably a coping mechanism. By the same age that Sansa had her first birthday in King's Landing, Sandor had apparently killed someone himself. Interesting, as Arya herself had killed multiple people even earlier than he, with him participating in some of it with her! I have a much different read of the relationship between Sandor and Arya when they are on the road together.

Sandor always had coarse speech. That is who he is. But for him, I do not see their time together as him being unnecessarily cruel. She also goes into a deep depression after the Red Wedding, so he does what he can to keep her going. He even tries to talk to her about it, seeing that it upsets her. He may have a stunted emotional range, but he's not completely bereft of empathy, despite his training by the Lannisters. I think he seems a lot of himself in Arya. The rage and anger, especially at a young age. His "you remember where the heart is?" as he's feverish and dying is just gutting, on multiple levels since Arya's heart is becoming more and more stone hard. She can barely remember what Mycah even looks like at that point...as much as I do ship 16+ year old Sansa with Sandor once he has had some rehab, I look forward to a reunion between Arya and Sandor just as much if not more.

[DogLover]

I do believe that Sandor and Sansa have strong, compelling feelings for each other; but that doesn't mean I think they will end up in a blacksmith's cottage (or a Bolton-free Winterfell) happily making wolf-pups; or even that they should. Sansa was 12 years old the last time she saw Sandor; and 13 when she was last known to think about him. For all she has been through, she is still a young girl, beginning to develop feelings of sexuality but not understanding those feelings. Sandor is a physically adult man with the emotional maturity of a teenager, and is, frankly, an unstable wreck. There are indications, i.e. his trying to goad Arya into killing him (and the inflammatory language he used, evidence of either self-loathing or despair, or both) and his probable sojourn (as of AFFC) as a gravedigger on the Quiet Isle (and the Elder Brother's words that the Hound died repentant, which can imply that the Hound persona is dead and Sandor Clegane is trying to find "a better way"). But Sandor has a long way to go before he could be a reliable partner to any woman; and he may not make it; I think he is a very damaged man. He would be high maintenance for any woman who loved him; and Sansa is too young and immature, at 13, to try to salvage him even if she wanted to, which she might if she was free and found him. Sandor might need ten years or more before he can lay his demons to rest; and I don't know if he can; he's got a bad temper, an addiction to violence as well as to alcohol, and some ghastly memories to haunt and confuse him.

I do think that Sansa and Sandor will meet again in ASoIaF. When they do; I'm not sure that it will be a sweepingly romantic moment. I think they have unfinished business. Sandor might die nobly saving her life; or save her life and get her to safety and then return to the Quiet Isle; or Sansa might save him (less likely, but not impossible). Or they might just talk. Speculating is fun; but we'll have to leave the resolution of the characters' relationship to GRRM. Hopefully he won't take too many more years to write it!

Beautifully written. Missing the *like* button.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

The best possible outcome for Sandor is redemption thanks to Sansa's influence, and for Sansa a better, clearer picture of a harsh world thanks to his advice.

Romance isn't a good outcome, and I find shipping the couple, at the very least, naive of the implications of a 30-something (I wanna say) man "falling in love" with a 12 year old (which she was when they first met)

I'm not convinced Westeros should adhere to modern American notions about teenage sexuality: They clearly consider people as adults much earlier. In Winds, at fifteen, Sansa would be of age. Essentially an adult in Westeros... Which I daresay is one of the few things Westeros gets right, not sharing the modern Anglo societal obsession with infantilizing teenagers.

Disclaimer: In my country, the age of consent is 13- Americans prosecuting people as rapists for consensual sex with 15-16-17 year olds has always been extremely puzzling to me.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

You are flattering me, my friend. I devote many of my hours analysing Sansa, so she became my area of expertise, but I could be totally wrong with this one.

It is precisely because you've devoted so many hours to this that I am curious. I've seen a few theories from die hard Sansa fans about who she'll wind up with that surprise me to no end. I would really like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

I do believe that Sandor and Sansa have strong, compelling feelings for each other; but that doesn't mean I think they will end up in a blacksmith's cottage (or a Bolton-free Winterfell) happily making wolf-pups; or even that they should. Sansa was 12 years old the last time she saw Sandor; and 13 when she was last known to think about him. For all she has been through, she is still a young girl, beginning to develop feelings of sexuality but not understanding those feelings. Sandor is a physically adult man with the emotional maturity of a teenager, and is, frankly, an unstable wreck. There are indications, i.e. his trying to goad Arya into killing him (and the inflammatory language he used, evidence of either self-loathing or despair, or both) and his probable sojourn (as of AFFC) as a gravedigger on the Quiet Isle (and the Elder Brother's words that the Hound died repentant, which can imply that the Hound persona is dead and Sandor Clegane is trying to find "a better way"). But Sandor has a long way to go before he could be a reliable partner to any woman; and he may not make it; I think he is a very damaged man. He would be high maintenance for any woman who loved him; and Sansa is too young and immature, at 13, to try to salvage him even if she wanted to, which she might if she was free and found him. Sandor might need ten years or more before he can lay his demons to rest; and I don't know if he can; he's got a bad temper, an addiction to violence as well as to alcohol, and some ghastly memories to haunt and confuse him.

I do think that Sansa and Sandor will meet again in ASoIaF. When they do; I'm not sure that it will be a sweepingly romantic moment. I think they have unfinished business. Sandor might die nobly saving her life; or save her life and get her to safety and then return to the Quiet Isle; or Sansa might save him (less likely, but not impossible). Or they might just talk. Speculating is fun; but we'll have to leave the resolution of the characters' relationship to GRRM. Hopefully he won't take too many more years to write it!

Pressing Like button now.

[Mladen]

It is precisely because you've devoted so many hours to this that I am curious. I've seen a few theories from die hard Sansa fans about who she'll wind up with that surprise me to no end. I would really like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

I am writing an essay on that subject for my Animal project thread. Once I am done, I`ll PM you. Until then, I`ll keep it to myself :). And, thank you for the kind words. It`s glad to know I invoke curiosity among posters when I talk about Sansa.

I do believe that Sandor and Sansa have strong, compelling feelings for each other; but that doesn't mean I think they will end up in a blacksmith's cottage (or a Bolton-free Winterfell) happily making wolf-pups; or even that they should. Sansa was 12 years old the last time she saw Sandor; and 13 when she was last known to think about him. For all she has been through, she is still a young girl, beginning to develop feelings of sexuality but not understanding those feelings. Sandor is a physically adult man with the emotional maturity of a teenager, and is, frankly, an unstable wreck. There are indications, i.e. his trying to goad Arya into killing him (and the inflammatory language he used, evidence of either self-loathing or despair, or both) and his probable sojourn (as of AFFC) as a gravedigger on the Quiet Isle (and the Elder Brother's words that the Hound died repentant, which can imply that the Hound persona is dead and Sandor Clegane is trying to find "a better way"). But Sandor has a long way to go before he could be a reliable partner to any woman; and he may not make it; I think he is a very damaged man. He would be high maintenance for any woman who loved him; and Sansa is too young and immature, at 13, to try to salvage him even if she wanted to, which she might if she was free and found him. Sandor might need ten years or more before he can lay his demons to rest; and I don't know if he can; he's got a bad temper, an addiction to violence as well as to alcohol, and some ghastly memories to haunt and confuse him.

I do think that Sansa and Sandor will meet again in ASoIaF. When they do; I'm not sure that it will be a sweepingly romantic moment. I think they have unfinished business. Sandor might die nobly saving her life; or save her life and get her to safety and then return to the Quiet Isle; or Sansa might save him (less likely, but not impossible). Or they might just talk. Speculating is fun; but we'll have to leave the resolution of the characters' relationship to GRRM. Hopefully he won't take too many more years to write it!

Oh, Raksha, you have been sorely missed. I love this post of yours. Beautifully written and insightful. Well done.

[Lyanna Stark]

The best possible outcome for Sandor is redemption thanks to Sansa's influence, and for Sansa a better, clearer picture of a harsh world thanks to his advice.

Romance isn't a good outcome, and I find shipping the couple, at the very least, naive of the implications of a 30-something (I wanna say) man "falling in love" with a 12 year old (which she was when they first met)

Ah so you are also uncomfortable with Jaime and Brienne then? Since she is 17-18 when they meet and the age difference is the same as between Sansa and Sandor?

Dany is 16 when she meets Daario, also supposedly a much older man than her. Not to mention Drogo who must at least have been in his mid twenties if not a fair bit older than that.

The way GRRM has written ASOIAF means the ages are off. He has stated himself that people are either children or adults and that there are few, if any in between, which makes a lot of things fairly wonky, especially some of the women's ages. As soon as a Westerosi woman has flowered she is then a "maiden".

Jorah is also a fair bit older and fell for 14-15 year old Dany. Then you have Roose Bolton and Fat Walda Frey if you want examples of in novel examples on far older men with younger women. It's not particularly unusual, in universe.

Ignoring people being uncomfortable with the ages (an understandable point) and just looking at the text and what that infers, I think Milady's essay linked above nails it completely.

[mrunderhill]

Ah so you are also uncomfortable with Jaime and Brienne then? Since she is 17-18 when they meet and the age difference is the same as between Sansa and Sandor?

Dany is 16 when she meets Daario, also supposedly a much older man than her. Not to mention Drogo who must at least have been in his mid twenties if not a fair bit older than that.

The way GRRM has written ASOIAF means the ages are off. He has stated himself that people are either children or adults and that there are few, if any in between, which makes a lot of things fairly wonky, especially some of the women's ages. As soon as a Westerosi woman has flowered she is then a "maiden".

Jorah is also a fair bit older and fell for 14-15 year old Dany. Then you have Roose Bolton and Fat Walda Frey if you want examples of in novel examples on far older men with younger women. It's not particularly unusual, in universe.

Ignoring people being uncomfortable with the ages (an understandable point) and just looking at the text and what that infers, I think Milady's essay linked above nails it completely.

This is rather disturbing in ASOIAF. I remember being 15 and breaking up with a girl because I felt that a 13 girl was too young for a 15 year old boy. That supposedly normal grown men lust after girls like Dany and Sansa is very disturbing. I rarely ever do this, but the only way the male characters can carry a shred of my respect is by imaging Sansa and Dany are really 16 or so.

[gash]

This is rather disturbing in ASOIAF. I remember being 15 and breaking up with a girl because I felt that a 13 girl was too young for a 15 year old boy. That supposedly normal grown men lust after girls like Dany and Sansa is very disturbing. I rarely ever do this, but the only way the male characters can carry a shred of my respect is by imaging Sansa and Dany are really 16 or so.

ASOIAF isn't the real world though. its set in a medieval type society, with different societal norms.

[mrunderhill]

ASOIAF isn't the real world though. its set in a medieval type society, with different societal norms.

Real world or not it is still disturbing from grown men to be attracted to 12 year old girls. Though with the Hound I am not sure it is attraction rather than loving her innocence. Now that I think about it the Hound's love for Sansa reminds me of the Dark Knight and Bane's love for Talia. Growing up in a harsh, violent place they latch on the first pure and innocent thing they see.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Ah so you are also uncomfortable with Jaime and Brienne then? Since she is 17-18 when they meet and the age difference is the same as between Sansa and Sandor?

Comparing a girl of 11 with a girl of 17-18 is really pushing things and sadly it's all done to justify Sansan. Really sad. Sandor was infatuated with Sansa at first glance when she was 11. Not 17 as Brienne. Not 16 or 14 as Dany. 11. That's it and it's not acceptable, not even in Westeros.

[mrunderhill]

Comparing a girl of 11 with a girl of 17-18 is really pushing things and sadly it's all done to justify Sansan. Really sad. Sandor was infatuated with Sansa at first glance when she was 11. Not 17 as Brienne. Not 16 or 14 as Dany. 11. That's it and it's not acceptable, not even in Westeros.

Again looking back on things I am not sure he was infatuated with her as such. He was drawn to her, but I don't think he could fully understand why. I think he was more drawn to her purity than anything else.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Again looking back on things I am not sure he was infatuated with her as such. He was drawn to her, but I don't think he could fully understand why. I think he was more drawn to her purity than anything else.

It was stated in the app so if you take that seriously - it was written by Ran and GRRM approved what's in it - then the Hound was attracted to her from the first time he saw her. In the book, his feelings aren't stated. Just his advice to her.

eta:

I agree though, that it is her innocence that he finds so enticing.