Is indeed Sansa's infatuation with the Hound mutual?

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

MY vote (as their winters last years....and its a different world) is that their year is 450 days long.....which means....a 12 yr old is actually over 14 yrs old by our standards....

HAH

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Didn't he tell Tickler that Sansa is a true lady, unlike her sister?

[Jrogo]

I believe it's mutual! Sansan!

[Bippy]

I don't particularly like Sansa, but even my black heart wishes better for her than Sandor. "Fucked her bloody," seriously? The fact that he could even articulate that thought is beyond disgusting, whether he meant it as an incitement to murder or not. And there again---"gift of mercy"? can he not just quietly slit his own throat if it's that important to him, rather than drag a preteen into the event?

:ack: Some beasts are just too damn beastly.

ETA: Also, to the extent that I can see a pattern here, it's Sansa briefly rejecting the protection her "true knight" (i.e. Ned, who was more or less smart, decent-looking, and well-intentioned) and trying out a variety of other protective "bad knight" figures: Short & Weak, Ugly & Scary, and Perverse & Evil. Once she gets past #3, I think she'll get to move on as an adult. In the best-case fairy tale scenario, of course.

[Pearlthegirl]

MY vote (as their winters last years....and its a different world) is that their year is 450 days long.....which means....a 12 yr old is actually over 14 yrs old by our standards....

HAH

Awesome! Problem solved!

[icecold]

i don't think he likes her in a romantic way, i think he prorected her because she reminded him of his sister.

[Lars Penry]

I never felt that Sandor had any romantic investments in Sansa, but rather he saw her as his antithesis, which irritated him on a fundamental level, the beautiful young maiden who was highborn and believed the world to be just and good, whilst he knew first hand it was not and both pitied her and envied her. As the Elder brother stated, Sandor is a conflicted man, a part of him wishes to protect that innocence, as it gives him hope that maybe the world can be good as she sees it, if he can protect this one glimmer of light then his life needn't be so dark.

Simultaneously his quotes on how he meant to take her the night he asked her to sing for him during the Blackwater shows the alternative side, he hates her because she is so good, and he knows she will inevitably have a huge fall from her tower of purity, part of him wants to do that to her, as the power she has over him is that she dangles the hope of a kind world in front of him like a carrot. He wishes to take back that power by shattering her innocence.

But as savage and brutal as the world has made him, he cannot bring himself to do it, ultimately Sandor is a good man seeking redemption, he has the potential to be a true knight, and to live up to Sansa's aspirations of a true knight, even if it is not in quite the way she expects. Recognising his failure he later takes Arya to her mother, not for Gold but for his and Sansa's own good. [Not to mention he sees a reflection of himself in Arya unlike the pure Sansa he perceives, but that's for another thread]

On another tangent, does anyone notice the obvious parallels between Sandor's 'Ressurrection',and the Mountain's?

-The Elder brother is actually described by Brienne in a similar manner that Qyburn is, kindly eyes, old and small like a dearly loved Grandfather.
- Both are maesters and are highly skilled, perhaps more so than most other maesters, but seem to have abandoned it to an extent to search for higher answers. However Qyburn sought them in the dark arts, the Elder Brother in the Gods.
- Gregor has possibly been synthetically wightified [ice] Sandor is kissed by fire.

That last point is admittedly tenuous

They are shadowy reflections of the other, just as Sandor and Gregor are. I still think there will be an epic battle between Sandor and UnGregor, and Sansa will become Queen regent for Rickon. At which point the now purer Sandor will rally to her cause.
The Hound cannot beat the Mountain. But Sandor Clegane can.
Just opinion and Theory.

[Nymeria's Ghost]

I think Sandor sees a mirror of his younger self in Sansa's' innocent belief of knights= justice/chivalry/goodness/bravery, etc.....

Remember what he was playing with just before his BROTHER, of all people, almost killed him? A wooden knight...the very symbol of nobility that Sansa covets.

Young Sandor seemed literally just like Kings Landing Sansa, in the desire to be enamoured with knighthoods....or the illusion of it.

....like present day rock stardom or movie fame. It's all bullshit.

He's trying to educate her of his own experience...passively. Vicariously.

He's like "little bird, look at that prick Joffrey and what he's done to u? And u still believe in the fairytale? I am the PRODUCT of the illusion that knighthood and royalty equates goodness. Open your eyes. Look at me. Learn from my face. It embodies the truth of what you need to learn. The scar I wear is external for all to see.

Yours will be internal scarring if you don't open your eyes. " ( I'm just riffing) :)

I see his attraction to Sansa as much more a desire to educate her, like a big brother, rather than a crush or a sexual thing. he has a chance to teach a beautiful unspoilt female teenager of the cruelty she lives in. And she embodies the innocence of his youth.

It's a seriously bittersweet relationship.

On another note:

If it's intentional, it's genius, but consider the parallel of both clegane brothers, at their respective last hour alive:

- The Mountain is challenged to admit Elias murder, a chance to absolve himself.

He refuses....up until he knows he's won against Oberyn, and confesses to his crime only to further wound the Red Viper......like he's proud of it.

- The Hound though, in his last weak hour, confesses to Mycah, and MEANS it. He wants absolution, and reveals to Arya, and himself, that it was unfair, cruel and wants Arya to see his regret.

As Arya walks away, leaving the hound to die in his sins, I believe GRRM wanted us to see Sandor as a self redemptive., where the mountain was incapable of it.

The 2 brothers were both given the question of redemption,

Gregor dismissed it.

Sandor embraced it.

I love that.

No wonder he's living out the rest of his present days on the quiet isle....

He has no more to prove....to himself at least.

he got to experience Sansa....he can rest for now

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm not convinced Westeros should adhere to modern American notions about teenage sexuality: They clearly consider people as adults much earlier. In Winds, at fifteen, Sansa would be of age. Essentially an adult in Westeros... Which I daresay is one of the few things Westeros gets right, not sharing the modern Anglo societal obsession with infantilizing teenagers.

Disclaimer: In my country, the age of consent is 13- Americans prosecuting people as rapists for consensual sex with 15-16-17 year olds has always been extremely puzzling to me.

I noticed no one has responded to you. I am with you on this just so you know. People will try to crucify you for saying that teenagers (especially female teenagers) can and do have consensual sex.

I don't live in a country where the age of consent is 13, but I was having sex at 13 and I don't feel I was abused by any of the people I chose to have sex with. Or that I was some freak of nature for wanting to have sex at that age.

I just want to say you're very brave to have said this and I want you to know your not the only person on this forum who doesn't have a problem with it. Sadly those who do shout very loudly about it and will try to shame anyone who does not agree.

I'm quite sure half the people on here think I'm deeply fucked up though :rolleyes:

[Woman of War]

I don't particularly like Sansa, but even my black heart wishes better for her than Sandor. "Fucked her bloody," seriously? The fact that he could even articulate that thought is beyond disgusting, whether he meant it as an incitement to murder or not. And there again---"gift of mercy"? can he not just quietly slit his own throat if it's that important to him, rather than drag a preteen into the event?

:agree:

I have zero respect for Sandor at that moment. He may be an interesting character at times but here he is a coward who prefers assisted suicide by a child to doing the deed himself.

And the idea that he'd rather rape and kill a woman he desires instead of leaving her to another man is even horribly misogynistic in a possessive way if it's only a provoking thought.

[SpringKing]

Mutual. "And her prince was there" forecasts San-San will happen (as does 'San-San' itself).

[Le Cygne]

Of course it's mutual attraction, I won't bother to go there. But the rape thing is a poor reading of the text.

After cupping his cheek and putting on his cloak, Sansa looking back, thinks this:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside... she could scarcely imagine it.

She had prayed to keep him safe, and he was there to keep her safe, coming to her from the ship called Prayer:

Sansa knew most of the hymns... He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him. --> this is about his brother

And then he comes to her from fighting in a war on a ship called Prayer, and she sings this:

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,
save our sons from war, we pray...

And he was there to save her:

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

The author's script:

I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe.

The app:

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him -- as well as her song -- makes him leave without her...

"Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him."

The app says he made her sing while working up the courage to save her. To take her from the city as she and the author also note. The author also said he wanted to emphasize the fire, because that's why he needed courage. He was reliving what his brother did to him. And he made clear in his script that he would never hurt her. He wouldn't even kiss her when he thought she didn't want him to.

They both see him as her protector. He's dying and she is all that matters to him. He's wishing he had spared her from what the Lannisters did to her. And she's a prisoner of the Lannisters, but she's praying for him about what his brother did to him, and understanding he was afraid of the fire. They matter to each other, quite a lot.

Sandor hates rapists, he calls them rats. Gregor is a rapist. He said he was going and he wanted to keep her safe, and she said he offered to take her from the city, and later he confirmed that. He has been established in the story as the one who saves her from rapists. There are three occasions where Sansa was almost raped:

1) The mob. Sandor saved her.

2) Marillion. She thought Sandor was there to save her.

3) Tyrion. Sandor doesn't know Tyrion didn't go through with it. (And he likely knows Tyrion's first wife, Tysha, was gang raped, which adds to his concern that this is happening to her and he's not there to save her). This is what he's talking about when he's "dying" - that he wasn't there to protect her from Tyrion.

And there's this, too. The night of the battle, when Cersei is scaring her, she wishes Sandor was there to save her, too:

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

[Lady Redbush]

Of course it's mutual attraction, I won't bother to go there. But the rape thing is a poor reading of the text.

After cupping his cheek and putting on his cloak, Sansa looking back, says this:

She had prayed to keep him safe, and he was there to keep her safe, coming to her from the ship called Prayer:

And then he comes to her from fighting in a war on a ship called Prayer, and she sings this:

And he was there to save her:

The author's script:

The app:

The app says he made her sing while working up the courage to save her. To take her from the city as she and the author also notes. The author also said he wanted to emphasize the fire, because that's why he needed courage. He was reliving what his brother did to him. And he made clear in his script that he would never hurt her. He wouldn't even kiss her when he thought she didn't want him to.

They both see him as her protector. He's dying and she is all that matters to him. He's wishing he had spared her from what the Lannisters did to her. And she's a prisoner of the Lannisters, but she's praying for him about what his brother did to him, and understanding he was afraid of the fire. They matter to each other, quite a lot.

Sandor hates rapists, he calls them rats. Gregor is a rapist. He said he was going and he wanted to keep her safe, and she said he offered to take her from the city, and later he confirmed that. He has been established in the story as the one who saves her from rapists. There are three occasions where Sansa was almost raped:

1) The mob. Sandor saved her.

2) Marillion. She thought Sandor was there to save her.

3) Tyrion. Sandor doesn't know Tyrion didn't go through with it. (And he likely knows Tyrion's first wife, Tysha, was gang raped, which adds to his concern that this is happening to her and he's not there to save her). This is what he's talking about when he's "dying" - that he wasn't there to protect her from Tyrion.

And there's this, too. The night of the battle, when Cersei is scaring her, she wishes Sandor was there to save her, too:

:bowdown: No relationship is ever perfect but this infatuation/deep-seated concern for one another is most definitely presented within the text of the story.

[Woman of War]

:bowdown: No relationship is ever perfect.

But Sandor and Sansa are close to perfect for each other.

Some romantics at the beginning:

"I got it, I got it, you have no idea how it's done. You want it nice? You are a maiden so I'll have to fuck you bloody but I'll do it slowly, we have all the time since I don't have to pay!"

She wants a beautiful and stylish home:

"Fuck, it was you who told me to clean my boots before I put them on the table! How could I know that you like those fuckin' flowery curtains more than your tablecloth!

Yes, old habits die slowly:

"i swear, the next time you are after me with that stinking soap I'll fuck your bloody corpse!"

And their relationship develops more tender intimacy...

"Littlebird, you look like some stuffed turkey! Has the next friggin' dress shrunk or are you preggers again? C'mon, swing your fat arse over!"

And in the end Sansa needs someone to confront her with hard realities of life and death:

"Damn girl, you should have known death when you see him! These scallops were done and so are we now, face it!

There is something to be said for honest speech.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It's pretty funny how many people on the first page took the OP at face value

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Sansa is not infatuated with the hound. He's one of the few people that was nice to her without trying to manipulate her. And he saved her life once. So she might be fond of him but that's not the same as.... being infatuated.

Someone being nice and having an appreciation for that kindness is not the same being infatuated or in love. Sometimes young girls get crushes on older, dangerous guys for whatever reason. But it doesn't last forever and it doesn't mean she loves him or wants to marry him and have his babies.

[SpringKing]

Sansa is not infatuated with the hound. He's one of the few people that was nice to her without trying to manipulate her. And he saved her life once. So she might be fond of him but that's not the same as.... being infatuated.

Someone being nice and having an appreciation for that kindness is not the same being infatuated or in love. Sometimes young girls get crushes on older, dangerous guys for whatever reason. But it doesn't last forever and it doesn't mean she loves him or wants to marry him and have his babies.

In her last chapter in AFFC, Sansa is still thinking of Sandor's unKiss in a sexual context:

“I do need another husband. I had one once, but I killed him.”

“You did?” Alayne said, shocked.

“Oh, yes. He died on top of me. In me, if truth be told. You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?”

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod. “That must have been dreadful, my lady. Him dying. There, I mean, whilst... whilst he was...”

“... fucking me?” She shrugged. “It was disconcerting, certainly. Not to mention discourteous. He did not even have the common decency to plant a child in me.

Not proof of ongoing infatuation but she's still thinking on him. Indicative that LF's wedding night with Lysa, to which Sansa was an uncomfortable earwitness, didnt come to mind when talking with Myranda.

[Le Cygne]

:bowdown: No relationship is ever perfect but this infatuation/deep-seated concern for one another is most definitely presented within the text of the story.

You said it! :)

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Well grrm did say he played with them a bit so it's save to say that it's mutual ^_^

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Not proof of ongoing infatuation but she's still thinking on him. Indicative that LF's wedding night with Lysa, to which Sansa was an uncomfortable earwitness, didnt come to mind when talking with Myranda.

How does thinking about him equal being interested in him romantically? Arya thinks about the Hound is she also interested in him romantically?