Is indeed Sansa's infatuation with the Hound mutual?

[Lord Reaver]

The reader likes like him, because she does. The reader likes her, because he does. Not the only reasons, but that's what the author is doing here, he's showing us these characters through the eyes of the other.

That's....not a universal truth, I suspect. Personally I like Sandor because he's less hypochritical than all the other greenlanders.

[Annara Snow]

What do you mean by 'well established'? There's nothing to indicate that she's romantically attracted to him. She's attracted to the idea of a knight saving her, and I suppose she feels kindly towards him after he told her about how he got his burns. She's also grateful after he saved her from the mob.

I agree that they have a connection, but it's not necessarily romantic- same with lots of fascinating characters and relationships in this series. People can have amazing chemistry that is platonic in nature.

I know, right? When you imagine someone kissing you and dwell on it over and over, thinking you can remember how it feels, when you dream of that guy in your bed, think of him and his "kisses" whenever sex is mentioned, and compare him to every guy you meet, this is obviously totally platonic and just about gratitude and kindness, :lol:

Your level of denial is really amusing.

Remember, she's 11 when she meets him, he's much older and scarier in the books and far from her type.

"Her type"? What, Joffrey? Loras? Because our type is always what we were attracted to when we were 11 years old, right?

[Le Cygne]

The context of her reply was:

"You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?"

In Sansa's mind what goes on in a marriage bed is kissing Sandor, even though she didnt. Sure sounds like she's still building sandcastles in the sky with her memories of Sandor.

Throughout the last chapter, we see the sandcastles have, if anything, become more elaborate since she dreamed of him in bed with her. I think she's pretty far gone. She heard his voice in the last book, and thought he was there to rescue her, but it was only Lothor. Now she's asking how does Lothor dream of Mya, and she's told naked. The cruel kisses fantasies may not be rated X, but certainly R, for racy.

Sweetrobin: "We'll kiss and play games, and you can read me about the Winged Knight.” She smoothes his long, fine hair and winds a lock around her finger. He kisses her, and she launches into well worn territory, and she swerves right from the red rose (that she thought meant everything, but realized it meant nothing, another Beauty and the Beast reference) to Sandor.

She doesn't even have to name him anymore, she's thought about him so often. Sandor is "he": "If I close my eyes, I can pretend... As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak."

[Annara Snow]

It is obvious in the books, not so much in the series, that Sandor is sexually attracted to Sansa. But at the same time he has that touching impulse to protect and help her. And he himself is able to identify that dichtonomy as potentially destructive and dangerous to Sansa. This is of course heartbreaking since he himself knows how dangerous he may be to her while attempting in a twisted way to support her. He wants nothing more than being part of the solution but realizes that he may in fact easily become part of the problem.

And Sansa is able to recognize the genuine impulse to help within him, hidden under darker and uglier approaches. She is able to react here, maybe even feels his underlying sexual tension but this does in no way mean that she shares it. And a notion and recoglition that there is something like a sexual emotion does further in no way mean that there is something like love.

The equation:

a little diffuse sexual tension + he or she could be my friend under certain circumstances = love

simply rarely works.

It may easily end with a hangover after an inconsiderate one night stand that ended in awkwardness and destroyed the future base for a wonderful friendship. Thats real life. Anything else is fairy tale country. And "could we please return to what we had before?" is hard enough in our times. But the friendship will be lost to awkwardness in a sexually repressive world like ASOIAF.

And Sansa is for sure more in need of a friend than of a lover. So if people love Sansa they should hope for Sandor as her faithful watchdog.

I think the erotic component will never play out, or only in the hangover version. In extremis it would be the violent destructive version. But It is more likely that Sandor will be the one who sacrifices himself saving her.

Because she is and will always remain a weak little girl in need of protection, who can't be trusted to decide what she wants, right?

I really wonder why you believe that you're qualified to be telling people that they're obliged to want this or that "if they love Sansa". It's absurd to be telling fans what they should or shouldn't feel about a literary work and literary characters. And it's even sillier and more hypocritical when it comes from someone who obviously has no experience of "loving" said literary character.

Please tell me, what exactly makes you the authority of what fans should do regarding the fictional character of Sansa? So far, you've been 1) telling people they should want this or that to happen with Sansa, if they love her (even though you obviously don't) and 2) ranting against the fact that there are people who have dared to write in-depth feminist literary analyses of Sansa's arc, which, as you keep telling us in various threads, extremely annoys you, since you see Sansa as this boring character that is undeserving of such analysis. Oh, and you've also been 3) revealing that you have seen through all these people who write those in-depth analyses that irritate you so much, and that their true, hidden agenda is to enjoy wish-fulfillment through shipping Sansa, which they are slyly hiding in these feminist analyses, and that's all, as you have so cleverly realized, because Sansa is beautiful; which is, obviously, the real reason why anyone would want to write about such a dull character who's worthless except for her beauty. Even though, oddly enough, you seem obsessed with the issue of "shipping" Sansa, have returned to this issue over and over, come up with numerous crackpot ships for Sansa, and have even ordered Sansa fans, in your above mentioned style: "If you love Sansa, you should be shipping her with Random Character A! Because I have decided that he is the best match for her!"

How about letting it go and focusing on the characters you actually like and appreciate?

[Le Cygne]

That's....not a universal truth, I suspect. Personally I like Sandor because he's less hypochritical than all the other greenlanders.

I was talking about GRRM's writing technique. Speaking in terms of literature, the way he's presenting the characters to the readers.

As for her age, she's going on 14... She is a young woman. I think things are going to get quite sexual for her in the next books.

[CalypsoStars]

This is the medieval definition of "courtly love". The knight in shining armor who comes to your rescue. The beautiful maiden in the castle waiting for your return from battle. That's what many songs and poems of the times were based on, a sort of love and yearning for something or someone that doesn't quite exist, that's never fulfilled.

I think their feelings for each other can be thought of as more of an abstract concept than actual, literal sexual attraction or romantic love.

[Lord Reaver]

This is the medieval definition of "courtly love".

Actually, I would say it's GRRM playing with the courtly love cliche. The knight isn't a knight, nor is his armor shiny, quite the opposite. The next logical steps would be for him to be stranded somewhere, waiting (gravedigger) and for her to come to the rescue.

[Woman of War]

......

............when it comes from someone who obviously has no experience of "loving" said literary character.

Please tell me, what exactly makes you the authority of what fans should do regarding the fictional character of Sansa?

........

So we all should only write about characters we love? That would make an interesting debate.

I remember that you may have tried to convince posters that characters you dislike deserve to be despised. You did not refrain from discussing those literary characters you were not particularly in love with or who annoyed you for some reason. And why should you? Then why should I?

You have invented a lot of fanfic about me in your post, that has nothing to do with anything I ever wrote. I could now be mean and suggest it has to do more with your subconscious. I simply think you have confused me with another poster.

[SpringKing]

Throughout the last chapter, we see the sandcastles have, if anything, become more elaborate since she dreamed of him in bed with her. I think she's pretty far gone. She heard his voice in the last book, and thought he was there to rescue her, but it was only Lothor. Now she's asking how does Lothor dream of Mya, and she's told naked. The cruel kisses fantasies may not be rated X, but certainly R, for racy.

Sweetrobin: "We'll kiss and play games, and you can read me about the Winged Knight.” She smoothes his long, fine hair and winds a lock around her finger. He kisses her, and she launches into well worn territory, and she swerves right from the red rose (that she thought meant everything, but realized it meant nothing, another Beauty and the Beast reference) to Sandor.

She doesn't even have to name him anymore, she's thought about him so often. Sandor is "he": "If I close my eyes, I can pretend... As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak."

Im with Bran on the issue of PDA:

“Do you like to read books, Bran?” Jojen asked him.

“Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid.”

I just close my eyes and wait for the slurpy sucking noises to stop happening on the page.

[Lyanna Stark]

How about letting it go and focusing on the characters you actually like and appreciate?

Unfortunately I doubt it is possible to change WoW's mind. She's had the same view for ages and ages despite any amount of textual evidence to the contrary.

Im with Bran on the issue of PDA:

“Do you like to read books, Bran?” Jojen asked him.

“Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid.”

I just close my eyes and wait for the slurpy sucking noises to stop happening on the page.

"Romance" in ASOIAF is far more sturm und drang than any embarrassing Hollywood romance though, so you probably won't need to worry about having any PINK GIRL STUFF shoved your way. However, if you want to avoid literary romance, then it must hurt to read ASOIAF.

[Mladen]

snip

Nice post, but as Lyanna said, don't waste energy... I have already accepted that my support for Sansa is in fact "product of my sexual fantasies that I transmit to the character"

"Romance" in ASOIAF is far more sturm und drang than any embarrassing Hollywood romance though, so you probably won't need to worry about having any PINK GIRL STUFF shoved your way. However, if you want to avoid literary romance, then it must hurt to read ASOIAF.

Nice comparisons with sturm und drang... Brilliant. TBH, never saw it that way, but now when you say it is completely clear...

BTW, I was absent for a while and haven't seen you around. Good to have you back. Your opinion in some matters is priceless...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I was talking about GRRM's writing technique. Speaking in terms of literature, the way he's presenting the characters to the readers.

As for her age, she's going on 14... She is a young woman. I think things are going to get quite sexual for her in the next books.

Coincidently, that's the same age when Arianne lost her virginity.

[SpringKing]

"Romance" in ASOIAF is far more sturm und drang than any embarrassing Hollywood romance though, so you probably won't need to worry about having any PINK GIRL STUFF shoved your way. However, if you want to avoid literary romance, then it must hurt to read ASOIAF.

Where I came from there were Franzetta babes voluptuously printed on the cover to warn innocents away from the imaginary smut. However, with a little squinting here and there, blushing maidens like moi can eke awkwardly past the painfully succulent pink bits.

Sturm und drang is an association well worth our regards.

[Le Cygne]

However, if you want to avoid literary romance, then it must hurt to read ASOIAF.

Also must hurt to read ASOIAF expecting courtly love stuff and finding this:

The bear, the bear! lifted her high into the air! The bear, the bear!

I called for a knight, but you're a bear! A bear! A bear! All black and brown and covered with hair!

She kicked and wailed, the maid so fair, but he licked the honey from her hair! Her hair! Her hair! He licked the honey from her hair!

Then she sighed and squealed and kicked the air! My bear! she sang. My bear so fair! And off they went, from here to there, the bear, the bear, and the maiden fair.

The song is a motif that reflects the relationships between several characters, including Sandor Clegane and Sansa Stark...

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Bear_and_the_Maiden_Fair

[Annara Snow]

So we all should only write about characters we love? That would make an interesting debate.

I remember that you may have tried to convince posters that characters you dislike deserve to be despised. You did not refrain from discussing those literary characters you were not particularly in love with or who annoyed you for some reason. And why should you? Then why should I?

You have invented a lot of fanfic about me in your post, that has nothing to do with anything I ever wrote. I could now be mean and suggest it has to do more with your subconscious. I simply think you have confused me with another poster.

Oh, what a nice Strawman. I've come to expect that from you - a new Strawman each time to avoid addressing the actual points. Nope, discussing characters you dislike and telling people why they are bad, despicable etc. is not the same as lecturing the fans of those characters you dislike: "If you love [character X], you should want Y..." or writing rants about how annoyed you are that the fans of the character you despise dared start a thread with an in-depth analysis of said character's arc, rather than dismissing the character as you would.

[LongRider]

"Romance" in ASOIAF is far more sturm und drang than any embarrassing Hollywood romance though, so you probably won't need to worry about having any PINK GIRL STUFF shoved your way. However, if you want to avoid literary romance, then it must hurt to read ASOIAF.

I had to google "sturm und drang" and I think you're right! And yay! that ASOIAF is not an embarrassing Hollywood romance.

I think that by the time of the Blackwater battle Sansa's and Sador was either mutual or becoming so.

[Lyanna Stark]

Where I came from there were Franzetta babes voluptuously printed on the cover to warn innocents away from the imaginary smut. However, with a little squinting here and there, blushing maidens like moi can eke awkwardly past the painfully succulent pink bits.

Sturm und drang is an association well worth our regards.

Hollywood has ruined romance, imho, and the stuff that is called "romance" coming out of that place is horrible. REAL romance is Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, sturm und drang, it's about feelings and not about some saccharine cutesy popsicle variation. In other words, literary romance, not Hollywood romance.

There is a huge difference.

I had to google "sturm und drang" and I think you're right! And yay! that ASOIAF is not an embarrassing Hollywood romance.

I think that by the time of the Blackwater battle Sansa's and Sador was either mutual or becoming so.

Good grief, do you learn nothing in schools these days? ;) Although I really shouldn't speak about it, I hated Goethe's "The Sorrows of Young Werther" so don't read it (or do, if you want to be righteous and annoyed), but it is a good example of "Sturm und drang".

The thing is Young Werther is romantic, and deeply so, but there is no sweet saccharine, no kissing and no sex. Yet it is romantic, because it is about deep feelings and how that affects people, not always in a positive way, either. It's love and torment; or love AS torment.

I wonder where brashcandy is with her excellent signature about romance not being cutesy and sweet.

As for when Sansa's and Sandor's feelings became mutual, as with many other things in ASOIAF; it is a Work in Progress, similar to Brienne's and Jaime's feelings for each other. Unlike a lot of cack-handed modern so called romances where it's basically down to "and they found each other hot" as explanation. In ASOIAF, it's about feelings, not just about the author hand waving some sort of attraction without any character development. With Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa the characters interact and develop because of this interaction. From this stem their feelings for each other and because of that, it feels more real. It's not just hand waving.

[Mahaut]

This is the medieval definition of "courtly love". The knight in shining armor who comes to your rescue. The beautiful maiden in the castle waiting for your return from battle. That's what many songs and poems of the times were based on, a sort of love and yearning for something or someone that doesn't quite exist, that's never fulfilled.

I think their feelings for each other can be thought of as more of an abstract concept than actual, literal sexual attraction or romantic love.

Well, actually this is not exactly the definition of courtly love.

One of the key features of courtly love in medieval literature is that it is a love from afar because the Lady is socially inaccessible; she’s of higher social rank than her lover and more often than not married to another man. Additionally, that love can be fulfilled if the lady so desires. In a courtly relationship, the lady is almighty and her courtly lover must serve and obey her in all her wishes. Sexual union occurs only if the lady deems her lover worthy of it and only if she so desires. So yes, desire is a key notion of courtly love but it doesn’t necessarily mean that that desire remains unfulfilled. I think it is also interesting to note (especially with regards to Sansa) that it is the lady who decides of the terms of the relationship.

Actually, I would say it's GRRM playing with the courtly love cliche. The knight isn't a knight, nor is his armor shiny, quite the opposite. The next logical steps would be for him to be stranded somewhere, waiting (gravedigger) and for her to come to the rescue.

Although he would never admit it, Sandor Clegane is an excellent knight. Originally, knights were nothing more than warriors on horseback. And from what we can gather from the Hand’s Tourney and his relationship with Stranger, Clegane is very good with lances and swords (the knight’s traditional weapons) and horses. And he does follow some very important courtly teachings too ;)

[SpringKing]

Hollywood has ruined romance, imho, and the stuff that is called "romance" coming out of that place is horrible. REAL romance is Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, sturm und drang, it's about feelings and not about some saccharine cutesy popsicle variation. In other words, literary romance, not Hollywood romance.

There is a huge difference.

The coming drang between Sansa and Sandor may be that their aspirations are radically altered from when they were last together. It is Sandor that is now striving to be pure, while Sansa is wallowing in impurity with daddy. The redeemed Beast may not want the dishonorable Beauty. Or at least not until she repents the error of her godsforsaken ways.

[RandomSmallfolk]

Tale as old as time. Song as old as rhyme. Beauty and the beast.

Thanks for the earworm :P