Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Zar Lannister

Margaery's Words of Wisdom [Spoilers]

Recommended Posts

Guest

Actually, the probelm I have with the scene is that Margaery would know Sansa is fourth in line... it would require not only assuming Robb will lose because he's a traitor, but that there are no male Starks to take the claim to Winterfell. I haven't heard anyone tell the tale in King's Landing, and I don't remember this was information they had in KL either.

Remember though, everyone still thinks Bran & Rickon are dead. So Sansa's actually second in line until they are found or Jon Snow is made legitimate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even with nicer, hotter Tyrion, I get why Sansa is freaked out. She's being bound to this family that ruined hers, even if he's the nicest of the bunch. He's not a Hand anymore; he has no real authority beyond his family name.

Plus, there's sex/"childbearing activities" she has been told her whole life she is honor-bound to give, no choice in the matter. Sure she's not attracted to Tyrion, but it's not just that. It's knowing she will be at someone's mercy, especially when every other time she's been at someone's mercy (besides the Hound), she's been beaten, humiliated, or almost raped. Loras at least has very gentle, feminine looks -- it's easier for a young girl to imagine a softer experience with someone like that. I mean, why were so many girls crushing on Jareth despite his cruelty? He's fey and delicate looking.

THAT said, there is no guarantee their relationship will be exactly like in the books, except for her maintaining her virginity (seems to me like too big a plot point). I would prefer sticking to the spirit of the novels, but it's possible she will get along with him better. Not love or marital bliss, but not total misery. She'll soon hear her mother and brother are dead...she has plenty of reasons to be sad. It would be reflective of her growing maturity, since we can't get inside her head. Wouldn't prefer this, but it's a possibility.

Not only this, but I got the feeling (in the books) that while Sansa may be important to the Lannisters now, being the heir to Winterfell, that might change once she's had a couple of children. What's to stop her from having a "hunting accident" after she's given Tyrion a couple of Lannister babies to inherit Winterfell? No one seems to be considering the possibility that this marriage may prove to be even worse for Sansa in the long run than it is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont remember exactly, but if Marg said "Lords of Winterfell", I think she'd be right.

I mean, in aGoT, would you not consider Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya to be Lords and Ladies of Winterfell? Not /THE/ Lord of Winterfell, just lords

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or TV!Marge is only manipulating Sansa with the whole handsome bit...again. Its becoming pretty obvious that in season three Sansa is just this pawn and cant think for herself. Every scene it seems like someone is imparting some kind of wisdom to her - Shae, Little Finger, Marge, etc. I think this is just laying the seed for her eventual annihilation of every evil character ever and takeover of the North in the last two books?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not only this, but I got the feeling (in the books) that while Sansa may be important to the Lannisters now, being the heir to Winterfell, that might change once she's had a couple of children. What's to stop her from having a "hunting accident" after she's given Tyrion a couple of Lannister babies to inherit Winterfell? No one seems to be considering the possibility that this marriage may prove to be even worse for Sansa in the long run than it is now.

Well, it actually took Robert VERY long to have his "hunting accident".

I dont think, that the Lannisters are generally people who just kill everyone that isnt usefull. I think, as long, as Sansa plays along, she wouldnt be hurt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My litmus test for book to show changes is "Will it change the outcome of the novels?"

GRRM has said he told D&D how the books end, presumably so that when they were making changes/cuts, they wouldn't change anything that is vital to the endgame. It's an extreme and silly example, but say if the books end with Dany sitting on the Iron Throne because of the Unsullied wiping out Westeros in the books, you can't very well have all the Unsulled wiped out by the Dragons going berserk and eating them in the fourth season on TV.

Therefore, this very well-executed scene to me was a great way to show off how amazing Natalie Dormer is, and set up Margaery's eventual trial. But since TV-Marg and Book-Marg seem to be different, I don't think it will change Marg's defense or the outcome, whatever it may be.

As for the scene itself, I liked how Marg said, "but he's not the worst Lannister" implying Joff. Of course, Joff is a Baratheon... mwa ha ha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thoughts on Margaery and Sansa doing the talk about the birds and the bees... But more specifically: Why is Margaery telling Sansa her children will be Lords of Winterfell?

So did they screw up or is there a plausible reason why Marg and Sansa assume her child will be Lord of Winterfell one day? That's gonan raise eye brows with the overly analytical show only viewers for sure. .

I dont remember exactly, but if Marg said "Lords of Winterfell", I think she'd be right.

mean, in aGoT, would you not consider Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya to be Lords and Ladies of Winterfell? Not /THE/ Lord of Winterfell, just lords

Margaery doesn't say the word 'Winterfell' she says "your son might be the Lord of Castley Rock and the North"

It actually speaks very loudly to say "The North" instead of Winterfell. Which I don't think Sansa picked up on yet.

Tywin and Varys call Sansa the "key to the North"

I think it would have been nicer if they emphasised that 1) Tyrion will never be Lord of Casterly Rock because Tywin already told him so; 2) For Sansa's son to be Lord of Winterfell Robb would have to die; 3) and it would mean a Lannister would be Lord of Winterfell.

Margaery has no way to know that and she's trying to give Sansa a "glass half full talk"

Margaery never says the word Winterfell. Check the transcript.

It would really make viewers understand why this marriage is so bad for Sansa.

Most viewers already seem to empathize with Sansa's situation.

The real problem - Tyrion being able to be portrayed as more handsome with the scar. Sigh. That is what bothered me the most in this conversation. And I'm a Tyrion fan in general.

You totally missed a book nod then, Margaery likes scars in the books and now the show as well. It's pointed out with whathisface Kettleblack when he claims his brother is more handsome but Margaery likes his scars, therefore she's more attracted to him.

But that "he's kind of hot" line to me highlighted one of the biggest difference between a TV series and a book. People are way prettier in a TV series, which can make the people who are supposed to be attractive seem like no big-whoop and the ugly loose their pathos.

Who is suppose to be ugly and who is suppose to be attractive? The show finds good actors and actresses and then works from there, not the other way around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You totally missed a book nod then, Margaery likes scars in the books and now the show as well. It's pointed out with whathisface Kettleblack when he claims his brother is more handsome but Margaery likes his scars, therefore she's more attracted to him.

LOL, you are right. Missed that it was a shout out to Margs book scar fetish. Awesome catch. I think it was that the scar he had in the book was so much worse than the one on the show (for obvious, good reasons including the cost of the cg) that I was reacting too. You could never say that that scar was made Tyrion hotter!

Who is suppose to be ugly and who is suppose to be attractive? The show finds good actors and actresses and then works from there, not the other way around.

I think this is the same response as Pellaeon and some others made pretty well, too. I felt like we can came to a pretty good resolution on that. Hope it works for you, too.*

ETA: Where I ended up by asking Paellaeon if having a hotter Tyrion impacted his/her ability to be sympathetic to Sansa and the answer was essentially - no, it didn't

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thoughts on Margaery and Sansa doing the talk about the birds and the bees... But more specifically: Why is Margaery telling Sansa her children will be Lords of Winterfell?

At that time it is assumed:

Bran and Rickon are dead.

Rob is a traitor and if not killed will be defeated or stripped of his titles which will be conferred at will by the King.

Arya is subordinate to Sansa even if she weren't presumed dead.

Jon is a bastard and out of the line of inheritance.

Sansa's first male child would be Lord of Winterfell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that were true, he would take the affection offered to him by Lady Tanda of her daughter Lollys, instead he rejects the notion, becuase he's a hypocrite; he's a Lannister, and he can complain that he's too ugly for beautiful women to love him and then... he acts the same way toward Lollys! and later Penny!

He doesn't crave affection, he wants the love, lust and admiration of a *beautiful* woman, that's why he'd rather unhapilly pay a terrible human being of a whore, and ignore her obviously repulsive traits, one among many being that she doesn't love him at all , than possibly have a happy marriage with a simple-minded, fat woman, who wouldn't hurt a fly.

In the end Bronn (of all people) choses the safety of becoming Lord Stokeworth, and possibly even be happy with his simple-minded wife, over Tyrion... don't go chasing waterfalls T! loll

Saint Tyrion really isn't all that great...

ETA: I also honestly don't understand your first sentence: Why does Shae suggesting to have sex with T. while Sansa is asleep make her a smart whore???

:agree: You expect him to understand their situation but instead he also insults them... as if he's not like them..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize Martin wrote the episode, but interesting how the show is being blunt with some of the mysteries. A (rare) interesting aspect of A Feast for Crows was whether or not Margaery was a nympho. Now it's all but confirmed in one scene. A bit depressing.

Why is it depressing? You read and enjoyed the book already, in which it was revealed that Margaery did in fact enjoy sex outside of marriage. What difference does it make to you if the show reveals it earlier? It doesn't impact your enjoyment of the book.

Also, I don't think she is meant to be portrayed as a nymphomaniac in the book and she isn't in the show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thoughts on Margaery and Sansa doing the talk about the birds and the bees... But more specifically: Why is Margaery telling Sansa her children will be Lords of Winterfell?

I wonder why Sansa didn't protect to this comment. I guess she was thinking about her own problems and didn't paid much attention to that sentance. Again, Sansa is the only Stark who would let that pass..As for Margaery,she's completely opposite from the books in that scene. If I can recall correctly, Margaery started ignoring Sansa after the Tyrell plan to marry her with Wyllas failed. I can see why show Margaery should be different and give an honest advice to Sansa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think on balance tha the Tyrells are better (or less bad) than the Lannisters. They seem to have an inkling that one can gain power while at the same time benefiting the people. Tyrion may et this, but I'm not sure Tywin does, let alone Cersei or Joffrey.

I guess the bottom line is that the worst Tyrell (Mace) is still better than Joff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was over a year ago, but I've started rewatching season 3, and when I saw this episode, I just had to make this:

Translation of Margaery's words of wisdom - what she was actually saying and you may have missed it

https://31.media.tumblr.com/e630c1f4f574ee0c93d394ba8e477f05/tumblr_n7jbwm6nkB1rnobf0o1_500.gif

https://31.media.tumblr.com/a35c2e25f11c6f1cf199b48b8b1b8d08/tumblr_n7jbwm6nkB1rnobf0o2_r1_500.gif

https://38.media.tumblr.com/46ad8aabe4f9ad7874530da1cf43cc40/tumblr_n7jbwm6nkB1rnobf0o3_r1_500.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×