New Sample Chapter

[Ser Vlad]

Once again, we're just going to have to disagree, I don't see man bent on vengence, I don't see a man bent on vindictiveness, I see a man who's basically given up on life, he's close to calling it quits, and is looking for a reason why he should bother with anything.

I must be terrible at getting my point across. I'm not talking about Tyrion being bent on revenge - I did not mention that he was bent on revenge. My focus is purely on his characterization re: his willingness to sarcifice Myrcella. Like I said: Tyrion was confused, he was throwing around ideas, but at the same time, he did not seem especially bothered by the idea his niece could die in whatever plots he made. It doesn't matter whether or not he wanted to sacrifice Myrcella. What matters is that a) he did not feel disgust/shame/revultion at the idea, but merely cold and aloof recognition and that in context of the chapter, it appears that Tyrion's nature is shifting - (1)to a larger extent that the previously established trend; and (2) as something that Tyrion recognizes conciously now - from a desire to be loved to a desire to be feared/hated, i.e. to embrace 'the evil monkey demon' that others believe him to be.

When he says "shall I atone for old sins or make new ones", he is basically apathetic about both choices.

Completely disagree. When he says, "shall I atone for new sins or make new ones," I believe he is exceedingly bitter about the straits he was forced in. I don't see apathy; I see bitter distain, if not veiled hatred.

He'd like to see Cersei die, but really he doesn't have much expectation that he can accomplish it. He drowns himself in wine because being dulled by alcohol is the closest thing he can come to dying without actually killing himself. Tysha is the only thing he can bother to get emotional about, and even that is hopeless, he keeps asking "where do whores go", but he has no expectations that he will actually find her.

It is not about acomplishing anything - it is about how he changed as a result of killing his father, of cursing his brother and how this constant bitter and cynical desire is altering his personality. His treatment of the concubine, and his attitude towards Myrcella show a paradigm shift in his thinking.

Tyrion is close to being broken in this chapter, and he was beautifully portrayed.

Tyrion is more than broken, he is bitter. Bitter that all his attempts to make others loved him have failed. Bitter than Tysha was taken away from him...etc.

Tyrion has had his world shattered and is quite emotionally unstable, but there is a distinct change in his thinking. A new chapter would work best as validation for our subjective opinions, as it would show which path Tyrion is following, whether or not he is growing colder, less focused on others...etc.

But yeah, like you said. We'll agree to disagree.

ironmaid,

The progression in Tyrion's character is not new - but it is a stronger shift than before. Tyrion has, throughout ASoIaF, become closer and closer to his fathe: more brutal, less caring more callous, more willing to murder...etc.

The events with Tywin - they were merely the straw that broke the camel's back. Tyrion is exceptionally well written, and my favorite character, but it seemed apparent that even before Tywin's murder, that Tyrion was gaining quite the dark streak and slowly become less... sensitive, for lack of a better word.

[ironmaid]

ironmaid,

The progression in Tyrion's character is not new - but it is a stronger shift than before. Tyrion has, throughout ASoIaF, become closer and closer to his fathe: more brutal, less caring more callous, more willing to murder...etc.

The events with Tywin - they were merely the straw that broke the camel's back. Tyrion is exceptionally well written, and my favorite character, but it seemed apparent that even before Tywin's murder, that Tyrion was gaining quite the dark streak and slowly become less... sensitive, for lack of a better word.

Well, Tyrion is one of my favorites too, and I'm interested in his fate and the developments of his characters, as you competently point it out. My remark is first and foremost reflecting on us/me, plunging into so much speculation and estimation based on one chapter which describes few hours. Proportion, as I said, has to be maintained in all this

[The Blueseer]

As keen as we all are in reading much into this one chapter, I think some proportions have to be maintained: Tyrion has just been on a tough journey, confined to a small space under deck. No one spoke to him in a long while. He was jolted in a wine cask, landed in a foreign place. All that after going through a long period of imprisonment, a trial which was far from fair, killing his father after discovering the lies he has been fed many years concerning Tysha, etc. I wouldn't build much on the basis of his comments on this particular day as proof of an overall change of character.

[ironmaid]

Thanks for the cheers LemonCake, its good to know one isn't all by himself in the vote for proportion

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

This is my last post on this subject since we seem to be going around in circles.

"My focus is purely on his characterization re: his willingness to sarcifice Myrcella. Like I said: Tyrion was confused, he was throwing around ideas, but at the same time, he did not seem especially bothered by the idea his niece could die in whatever plots he made. "

To each his own, you choose to focus on the fact that he's not particular bothered by the idea as evidence of his apthay. I choose to focus on the fact that he's not particular enthusiastic about it as evidence of the opposite.

I don't think throwing ideas around is evidence of anything. Jon Snow in a moment of bitterness in AGOT wished Benjen to die. It didn't consistute a change in personality for him. Tyrion has always skirted the morality a little any way. I don't think contemplating the idea would have been above him even in ACOK. He openly threatened Cersei with the lifes of her children back then too. Talking is not the same as doing, and I see no evidence in this chapter that queening Myrcella was anything but idle talk for Tyrion, I see nothing from him that suggests that he had any real motivation to actually follow through on it.

[Ser Vlad]

This is my last post on this subject since we seem to be going around in circles.

Yeah, agree to disagree, no?

To each his own, you choose to focus on the fact that he's not particular bothered by the idea as evidence of his apthay. I choose to focus on the fact that he's not particular enthusiastic about it as evidence of the opposite.

Right, and we can read into it either way, as there is evidence from previous books that could add weight to either argument. Like I said - when ADwD comes out, we'll see the path Tyrion takes, and that will hopefully clarify matters.

I don't think throwing ideas around is evidence of anything. Jon Snow in a moment of bitterness in AGOT wished Benjen to die. It didn't consistute a change in personality for him. Tyrion has always skirted the morality a little any way.

It depends - I think it showed quite a bit about Jon Snow's character, something we've seen throughout ASoIaF. I don't want to get into any sort of tangent here, but it shows his impulsive nature, his bitterness about his situation (which he does not admit to himself for quite some time)...etc. The difference, of course, is the guilt that followed. Jon was plagued by this thought for quite some time. Tyrion, on the other hand, has fantasized about death before. Not drawing a parallel between his comments re: Tywin et all and Myrcella, but just pointing out that Tyrion has a darker streak than Jon, and that event helped characterized Jon.

I don't think contemplating the idea would have been above him even in ACOK. He openly threatened Cersei with the lifes of her children back then too.

He did, but a) he thought to himself that he would never do it, and the circumstances were different, in the relationship between him and Cersei.

Talking is not the same as doing, and I see no evidence in this chapter that queening Myrcella was anything but idle talk for Tyrion, I see nothing from him that suggests that he had any real motivation to actually follow through on it.

See, we're still taking past each other. Whether or not he will follow throw in crowning irrelevant! What is important is his mindset, i.e. does he feel remorse or not? To bring up Jon, he felt quite guilty after wishing Benjen would die. This chapter doesn't feature anything of the sort, and shows Tyrion had a desire to inspire fear. Whether this is a facet of his character now is debatable, but ADwD's release should clear that up.

ironmaid,

Speculation is half the fun. Since there are only a few PoV chapters in a book, each is quite significant, IMHO.

[ironmaid]

ironmaid,

Speculation is half the fun. Since there are only a few PoV chapters in a book, each is quite significant, IMHO.

Of course it is, and we are all partaking in it gleefully; yet while we do speculate, I for one like to bear in mind the reality limits of this particular activity. I find it serves well my sanity

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I said it would be my last post on the subject, and it was, but you raised a side point I want to address.

Jon didn't feel guilty about it until after Benjen's disappearance, in other worlds, his guilt stems at least partially from feeling that his wish might in some karmic way contributed to Benjen's fate. So it would be wrong to compare his guilt after the fact to Tyrion's state of mind immeidately after saying it, I don't hink Jon was feeling guilty the moment after he wished ill for Benjen.

secondly, I don't think there is any doubt that Tyrion was always had a darker streak in him than Jon. I just don't think this is something new. Tyrion's heart is in the right place most of the time, but he has always been far more ruthless about getting his way. As Genna said, he's his father's son.

[Ser Vlad]

re: Jon

Suffice it to say that I disagree somewhat, but to add anything further would only draw out the conversation, and at this point that isn't really what either of us want.

secondly, I don't think there is any doubt that Tyrion was always had a darker streak in him than Jon. I just don't think this is something new. Tyrion's heart is in the right place most of the time, but he has always been far more ruthless about getting his way. As Genna said, he's his father's son.

I agree with Genna, which is why I feel that the points re: Myrcella are important. Tyrion has, throughout ASoIaF, progressively become more like his father. Ruthlessness was not always a part of his character, or rather not to the same extent at the beggining of AGoT as it was at the end of ASoS. Remember, Tyrion killed Shae, who he admitedly loved and his father. This was a drastic shift in his personality, and the trail weighed heavily on his personality. It was, for lack of a better expression, the straw that broke the camel's back. While I agree that Tywin had his heart in the right place in the past, I think it is critical to note that this is changing. Hence why I point out that he mistreated the concubine and wanted fear and that he was surprisingly callous regarding Myrcella.

ironmaid,

Oh, certainly. I've always found human behaviour under extreme stress insightful, however. Since the situation adds a great deal of weight on the concious mind, many impulses that would not appear when one is calm and collected may be observed. So if Tyrion were a 'real' human, I would say that his behaviour after the incident adds quite a bit of insight on what he is at his core, following his kinslaying.

[ironmaid]

ironmaid,

Oh, certainly. I've always found human behaviour under extreme stress insightful, however. Since the situation adds a great deal of weight on the concious mind, many impulses that would not appear when one is calm and collected may be observed. So if Tyrion were a 'real' human, I would say that his behaviour after the incident adds quite a bit of insight on what he is at his core, following his kinslaying.

I have no argument with that. I'll go to the extent of saying that extreme pressure even forges one's character. My initial remark and every post since would best be taken as my very own grain of salt, inserted into our heated debates over this and that iota in an ocean of events.

You may dismiss it as self-serving my own engagement with these debates

[Asa]

Hmm, re-reading Game of Thrones and in the first dany chapter it says that Illyrio's slaves are Dothraki, and slaves even though Pentos doesn't allow slaves. I love how everything is connected....like the woman who doesn't speak to Tyrion being one of Dany's maids.

[The Blueseer]

I said it would be my last post on the subject, and it was, but you raised a side point I want to address.

secondly, I don't think there is any doubt that Tyrion was always had a darker streak in him than Jon. I just don't think this is something new. Tyrion's heart is in the right place most of the time, but he has always been far more ruthless about getting his way. As Genna said, he's his father's son.

Sorry for intruding again at the end of this debate . I've taken but little part in it, but found it very interesting and instructive about how two persons can see and show the opposite interpretations of one given passage in a book.

Well, the next best thing to agree is to agree to disagree. (as Vlad suggested)

Could make the world a better place if more people would agree to that.

[Old Zog]

One more thought from the chapter, which I haven't seen raised yet...

I'm intrigued that Tyrion actually harvests and saves the potentially deadly mushrooms. I can't see how we would get any less out of this passage if he had instead merely thought about ingesting the mushrooms but left them alone, so I infer that the mushrooms will have some role to play later in the book. I wonder what that role could be.

[Besselfunction]

"My fair queen Daenerys, I've brought you these most delicious appetizers ..."

[The Blueseer]

Are we not getting mixed up now with Alice in Wonderland?

"Nibbling from one side of the mushroom will make you grow"... how tempting for Tyrion.

[direwolf]

wow, i go away for 24 hrs. and theres ten freakin' pages!

i have a question, but first, i bet Tyrion and some slave girl are gonna trip out on some mushrooms. I wouldn't put it past GRRM for a second.

But, to my question, how the hell does having Tyrion around give Ilyrio any leverage in a power play? I see how this benefits Tyrion, but not Ilyrio. I'm sure i missed this in the thread, but theres no way i'm reading ten pages to find out.

do we have any evidence that Tyrion will somehow increase the chances of putting Myrcella on the throne? can't they do that without him?

[delete this account pls]

For what it's worth, I think Ser Vlad is spot on. The sample chapter shows a disturbing change in Tyrion's personality, and a trend towards a general darkening of his character. His natural cunning and ruthlessness doesn't seem to be tempered by compassion anymore.

[Ser Vlad]

For what it's worth, I think Ser Vlad is spot on. The sample chapter shows a disturbing change in Tyrion's personality, and a trend towards a general darkening of his character. His natural cunning and ruthlessness doesn't seem to be tempered by compassion anymore.

Thanks. It's always nice to receive a vote of confidence.

re: mushrooms

The scence is most likely symbolic, outside of its potential impact on future events. Tyrion makes the following comments on the mushrooms: "Delicious, he thought, or deadly. But which? Why not both?" and the mushrooms themselves were described as "pale white...with speckles, and red ribbed undersides as dark as blood," So the question becomes what, if anything, is Martin suggesting with the description of the mushrooms?

As engrossed as I was in the previous debate, I did not have the time to properly analyze the passage, but the impression I had was that the mushrooms are indicative of Tyrions situation, specifically his relationship with Illyrio. To clarify, I believe the mushrooms are representative of the offer Tyrion was going to eventually receive from Illyrio. That's tied more to the thoughts Tyrion has about the mushroom that the description, however. He calls it delicious, which Illyrio's offer certainly is (i.e. gives him the chance to avenge himself, to protect himself from Cersei...etc.) while it may also be poisoned (at the very least, the risk of duplicity or future foreshadowing); the implication of "why not both," is, I hope, evident. To properly justify the argument I'd need to tie in the physical characteristics of the mushrooms into this, and outside of the implication of some form of negative with "as dark as blood," I don't see anything.

Ah, well, is mostly conjecture. Musings are just that, in the end. And there's always the "cigar is just a cigar" theorem, as well.

[The Blueseer]

Thanks. It's always nice to receive a vote of confidence.

re: mushrooms

The scence is most likely symbolic, outside of its potential impact on future events. Tyrion makes the following comments on the mushrooms: "Delicious, he thought, or deadly. But which? Why not both?" and the mushrooms themselves were described as "pale white...with speckles, and red ribbed undersides as dark as blood," So the question becomes what, if anything, is Martin suggesting with the description of the mushrooms?

Ah, well, is mostly conjecture. Musings are just that, in the end. And there's always the "cigar is just a cigar" theorem, as well.

Even wthout the physical characteristics I think this it is a nice catch! Nice musings!

(after all most mushrooms are far less deadly than they seem, but don't go picking them till after you've had experienced guides)

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think that scene adds strength to my overall conjecture of the deep state of depression and hopelessness that Tyrion is feeling throughout the chapter.

The reason he picks the mushrooms is because he's suicidal. A large part of him just wanted to get the whole thing over with. When you quoted him thinking "Delicious, he thought, or deadly. But which. Why not both?" You missed the crucial next line "He was not a brave man to take steel to his own bell, but a bite of mushroom would not be so hard."

The posion is not what he is trying to avoid, the poison is the only thing he's after, it's his ticket out.