Tywin marries Sansa?

[SerBrightflame]

If Robb was defeated, the issue of his heir would be null and void. Tywin could simply get the King to declare the will illegal and invalid. And I actually think the marriage (if Tywin isn't murdered) is a better voice for Sansa than marrying Tyrion. At least she won't be getting raped by Joffrey after his marriage.

[David Selig]

The best thing about it would've been that one of the most repetitive and beaten to death discussions on this board wouldn't exist.

Also, I could see him not wanting to "pollute" his seed by mixing it with an individual with traitor's blood.

That would be too hypocritical even by Tywin's "high" standards, given that he's quite the traitor himself.

I think this is an inconsistency in the books: Why did Tywin never remarry and produce more heirs? He does not strike me as someone who would neglect the welfare of his house over mourning for his wife.

Tywin's always seemed to me as someone who care for himself above all. He talks the talk how his actions are for his House and his descendents, but he never ever does anything which would be against his own interests but in the interest of his House.

[jons nissa]

If Robb was defeated, the issue of his heir would be null and void. Tywin could simply get the King to declare the will illegal and invalid. And I actually think the marriage (if Tywin isn't murdered) is a better voice for Sansa than marrying Tyrion. At least she won't be getting raped by Joffrey after his marriage.

robb is the legal heir of winterfell. no king can invalidate his plans for winterfell and who should be his heir especially given the person he chooses is a son of his father.

that said, even with sansa disinherited, with the right backing she could always "fight" for it however that would mean killing whoever was the reigning lord of winterfell. that would either be jon or rickon, perhaps bran, and there is no way sansa would go along with that. still, it could happen "in her name". these things have happened in our history and there is no reason it couldn't happen in westeros.

[mrunderhill]

your post states it's unimportant for sansa to be disinherited and then it's important for sansa to be seen as heir. i am assuming (please correct me if i'm wrong here) that what you mean is it's more important for sansa to be considered the heir of winterfell than to be disinherited.

i sort of agree with this. sansa having no rights to winterfell makes an enormous difference and is crucial in a world where a woman's dowry was the whole reason for marriage. so had everyone had known about robb's will, sansa's story would have been completely different. tywin wouldn't have wanted her for himself or tyrion, the tyrells wouldn't have wanted her and her value to littlefinger would be completely different.

so it isn't that whether sansa is in succession or not doesn't matter since the stark boys are still alive. it's that the lack of awareness of sansa's disinheritance gives credibility to the fight for sansa's hand in marriage.

as for the op, i also wondered why tywin didn't marry her. i think it's because ultimately he believed he had a duty to his son to marry him in a way that would further lannister power coupled with the simple fact that he would rather be ruling in king's landing than ruling the north. by giving sansa to tyrion, he does his fatherly duty, secures the north and maintains his own presence and power in king's landing. a tri facta which is just the way tywin has been shown to think and plan.

Legality counts for little when you have a direct descendant of the Ned Stark. Whether Sansa was the heir or not she would still be Ned's daughter and that would count for a lot. Why do you think Cat feared the descendants of Jon? Whether Sansa was disinherited or not, with no other Starks available and her child saving the North, people would flock to her.

[jons nissa]

Legality counts for little when you have a direct descendant of the Ned Stark. Whether Sansa was the heir or not she would still be Ned's daughter and that would count for a lot. Why do you think Cat feared the descendants of Jon? Whether Sansa was disinherited or not, with no other Starks available and her child saving the North, people would flock to her.

but there are other starks children in line besides sansa. male children. as for legality counting for little i did address that:

that said, even with sansa disinherited, with the right backing she could always "fight" for it however that would mean killing whoever was the reigning lord of winterfell. that would either be jon or rickon, perhaps bran, and there is no way sansa would go along with that. still, it could happen "in her name". these things have happened in our history and there is no reason it couldn't happen in westeros.

[mrunderhill]

but there are other starks children in line besides sansa. male children. as for legality counting for little i did address that:

The only other child would be a fake Arya. Bran and Rickon were believed dead. The fake Arya could easily be exposed. The biggest problem would be Jon if he wanted to contest Winterfell. Sansa being disinherited does not matter if Bran and Rickon are alive, because they are already before her in the line of succession. It only has meaning when it comes to Jon and the fake Arya. I am not sure Sansa would be so against fighting for her rights when it comes to Winterfell even against Jon. She regards it as her right now and clearly wants to take it back.

[jons nissa]

It only has meaning when it comes to Jon and the fake Arya. I am not sure Sansa would be so against fighting for her rights when it comes to Winterfell even against Jon. She regards it as her right now and clearly wants to take it back.

where does sansa say she considers winterfell her right now and wants it back?

as for jon, yes, he is a problem when it comes to the ownership of winterfell. just as stannis tried to get jon to leave the wall and rule winterfell, others would do so. and more northern bannerman would support jon than lady lannister.

[Colonel Green]

robb is the legal heir of winterfell. no king can invalidate his plans for winterfell and who should be his heir especially given the person he chooses is a son of his father.

Er, yes the king could. Robb was an attainted traitor in the eyes of the crown, so his inheritance was automatically forfeit. Moreover, the Iron Throne would not recognize him as a legitimate sovereign, so he wouldn't have the authority to order Jon legitimized, and it's really not clear that anyone has the authority to free somebody from the Night's Watch.

Regarding the OP, Tywin appears to have decided firmly against remarrying after Joanna died, despite having every reason to do so, with Jaime in the Kingsguard and his being quite opposed to Tyrion taking the lordship. But by the time the story takes place, it may also have been unwise for him to try producing further heirs, given that he was in his late fifties at the last, and it'd be a crapshoot whether he'd live to see any new children he might have into adulthood.

[mrunderhill]

where does sansa say she considers winterfell her right now and wants it back?

as for jon, yes, he is a problem when it comes to the ownership of winterfell. just as stannis tried to get jon to leave the wall and rule winterfell, others would do so. and more northern bannerman would support jon than lady lannister.

There are a few hints.

She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell.

Also at the end LF offers her Winterfell and we are not sure how she reacts. His words

"why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"

[jons nissa]

Er, yes the king could. Robb was an attainted traitor in the eyes of the crown, so his inheritance was automatically forfeit. Moreover, the Iron Throne would not recognize him as a legitimate sovereign, so he wouldn't have the authority to order Jon legitimized, and it's really not clear that anyone has the authority to free somebody from the Night's Watch.

no, the king could not invalidate robb's will. he could seize winterfell and give it to someone else but to say this child and not that, no, the king can't do that. however, if the king wanted to give winterfell to another family, they would most likely marry them to sansa in order to make it look good.

look at the story we have so far. no one overtly says "i'm doing this. fuck you." they always do what they want but cement the deal with a thin connection to how it's always been. robert may have won the rebellion but he still claims to be a targaryen.

[mrunderhill]

no, the king could not invalidate robb's will. he could seize winterfell and give it to someone else but to say this child and not that, no, the king can't do that. however, if the king wanted to give winterfell to another family, they would most likely marry them to sansa in order to make it look good.

look at the story we have so far. no one overtly says "i'm doing this. fuck you." they always do what they want but cement the deal with a thin connection to how it's always been. robert may have won the rebellion but he still claims to be a targaryen.

At the same time a king cannot make whoever, he wants heir on a whim either. This throws the entire social order and laws of inheritance into disarray. When Edward VI tried it nobody really accepted it and people wanted Mary I as queen.

[jons nissa]

There are a few hints.

She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell.

as far as she knows, other than jon, there are no other living starks. so yes, she believes she is the heir to winterfell and has been told as much by all her marriage prospects. she never thinks it's hers so she will fight for it. i stand by my statement that sansa would not fight another family member in order to gain control of winterfell. she just doesn't want it that way at this point of the story. but you never know how things will be in the future.

"why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"

you are right, this is littlefinger's idea. not sansa's. she has never said she wants to have or rule winterfell. not once throughout the whole series.

[jons nissa]

At the same time a king cannot make whoever, he wants heir on a whim either. This throws the entire social order and laws of inheritance into disarray. When Edward VI tried it nobody really accepted it and people wanted Mary I as queen.

which is why i said they would more than likely marry them to sansa. just as the boltons married ayra. it meets the barest minimum of adhering to the law. it doesn't pretend the law doesn't exist. robb's will would be legal no matter what the king wants.

[Woman of War]

Yes, that is what I meant, Jon's Nissa, thank you for clarifying.

[mrunderhill]

which is why i said they would more than likely marry them to sansa. just as the boltons married ayra. it meets the barest minimum of adhering to the law. it doesn't pretend the law doesn't exist. robb's will would be legal no matter what the king wants.

I was talking about if Robb had made say Edmure the heir to Winterfell. His will is going to be dismissed by most and people would flock to either Sansa or Jon. Then Robb's will would be made invalid. A king was free to make laws within reason. If he went too far, then people would not accept them. The example I gave was of a king going too far too disinherit his rightful heir and people refusing to accept that as legally binding. Another example was Henry VIII trying to bump up his younger sister in the succession. People are just going to dismiss it for most part.

[Winter's Knight]

I can think of two reasons.

First, Tywin likes his hands clean. So, Gregor brutalized Elia and her babes and Tyrion weds and beds Sansa.

Secondly, it is better for Tyrion to go North and suffer an "accident" at the hands of disgruntled Northmen.

[Woman of War]

The only other child would be a fake Arya. Bran and Rickon were believed dead. The fake Arya could easily be exposed. The biggest problem would be Jon if he wanted to contest Winterfell. Sansa being disinherited does not matter if Bran and Rickon are alive, because they are already before her in the line of succession. It only has meaning when it comes to Jon and the fake Arya. I am not sure Sansa would be so against fighting for her rights when it comes to Winterfell even against Jon. She regards it as her right now and clearly wants to take it back.

You mean she would fight against Jon if she knows that he is last who stands between her and Winterfell? If Rickon and Bran should be truly dead she will be out to kill the last of her (presumed) brothers? Maybe under the influence of Baelish as Evil Queen or if someone uses her name but no, never on her own. She is no fighter, so far no murderer and not ambitious, she has no desire to rule and for sure not at the expense of murder if she is not made a tool of some evil spirit. On the contrary, Jon and Sansa may be willing to step back for the respective other one if that ominous will should be unclear.

But I am sure that at least Rickon will surface as Chekhov's heir to Winterfell and Sansa has no claim in the end, with or without Robb's will.

[The Black Hawk]

Tywin marrying Sansa I smell pedophille but this is the Seven Kingdoms also Tywin can disinherit Tyrion due to reasons that he is not good for his house.

[mrunderhill]

You mean she would fight against Jon if she knows that he is last who stands between her and Winterfell? If Rickon and Bran should be truly dead she will be out to kill the last of her (presumed) brothers? Maybe under the influence of Baelish as Evil Queen or if someone uses her name but no, never on her own. She is no fighter, so far no murderer and not ambitious, she has no desire to rule and for sure not at the expense of murder if she is not made a tool of some evil spirit. On the contrary, Jon and Sansa may be willing to step back for the respective other one if that ominous will should be unclear.

But I am sure that at least Rickon will surface as Chekhov's heir to Winterfell and Sansa has no claim in the end, with or without Robb's will.

If any of her brothers resurface that is a different matter, but I am not convinced Sansa would happily step away from her heritage given the choice. I guess we will find out next book how far she is willing to go and if she really wants Winterfell.

[Colonel Green]

If any of her brothers resurface that is a different matter, but I am not convinced Sansa would happily step away from her heritage given the choice.

You think Sansa would fight her brothers over Winterfell? Why? She wants to go home. She could go live with them just as easily.

no, the king could not invalidate robb's will. he could seize winterfell and give it to someone else but to say this child and not that, no, the king can't do that.

Your basis for asserting that is what, exactly? Westeros is pretty much a pure autocracy, with no constitution or Magna Carta equivalents; there are no limits on the king's power beyond what he can get away with, from all appearances.