Dany...Duty vs Rights...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's Xaro's argument, but it's not necessarily a fair one, unless the man is actually compelled by the government to be a labourer. In medieval societies, servants were often paid in kind, rather than receiving salaries.

Xaro also says that the man begged Xaro to buy him, and Dany says, do it then. So she does see him as something to be bought and sold. It's implied, to me, that he's laboring against his will. I actually think that's the entire point of the conversation they have — Dany's a hypocrite.

[MasterJack]

GRRM will troll us and gives her back her son, he was with Jhoqo all this time and they only faked his death since they wanted Drogo's heir but not his crazy wife. Hell, the only one who saw his body was MMD...

Oh and Drgon will comeback as a spirit, Jedi Obi-Wan style.

[Nictarion]

GRRM will troll us and gives her back her son, he was with Jhoqo all this time and they only faked his death since they wanted Drogo's heir but not his crazy wife. Hell, the only one who saw his body was MMD...

Oh and Drgon will comeback as a spirit, Jedi Obi-Wan style.

IIRC, Jorah saw him as well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

GRRM will troll us and gives her back her son, he was with Jhoqo all this time and they only faked his death since they wanted Drogo's heir but not his crazy wife. Hell, the only one who saw his body was MMD...

Oh and Drgon will comeback as a spirit, Jedi Obi-Wan style.

If that happens and she gets the dragons and her son back, GRRM better make her go full-on nutcase to compensate.

[MasterJack]

IIRC, Jorah saw him as well.

Jorah said something like: "The Woman says... " and then MMD complete with something like, "dead, lizard-like, blablabla"

It isnt clear if he saw him, so if GRRM wants to bring him back, he can. This is scary, stop to bring the deads back.

[SeanF]

Tokars symbolize nobility, not necessarily participation in slavery. They are the garments of the rich who needn't labor for a living, but there were probably members of the Astapor nobility who made money in other trades. Dany ordered the murder of any individual over 12 and wearing a tokar. That's essentially an order to murder everyone in the ruling class, regardless of what they themselves might have done or not done. Given the way people on this board get upset about the treatment of people in their teens, the slaughter of preteen and early teenage children alone makes this an atrocity.

My view is that tokars symbolise freeborn citizen status, rather as the Roman toga did. The non-elite free population wear plain tokars, and probably only on special occasions. The elite wear them fringed with gold, silver, and precious stones, and wear them frequently, to show that they don't have to work for a living.

At Astapor, there were only 100 slave traders, a tiny proportion of the free population. But, thousands of free men must have worked for the slavers, or in related occupations, and may well have owned one or two slaves of their own, as Roman citizens did. Even if one accepts that the 100 deserved to be put to death, did the larger group deserve it?

[Nictarion]

Jorah said something like: "The Woman says... " and then MMD complete with something like, "dead, lizard-like, blablabla"

It isnt clear if he saw him, so if GRRM wants to bring him back, he can. This is scary, stop to bring the deads back.

Your right, I just looked it up. Jorah never saw him.

[Belisarius09]

Yes I agree Dany is trying to do right by her conscience by staying in Mereen, and this makes her deserving of the same type of brownie points that Stannis earned when he went to the wall.

However, I heartilly disagree with the assesment of some Dany fans here in this thread.

Claiming Stannis gained from going north to defend the wall. Yes, he is in a much better position now with the support of the North than he had been sitting all alone on Dragonstone. Hopever he had no way of knowing that by going to the north he would gain their support, he wasn't even sure his ships would succesfully make the trip. So don't try and say he only went because he would gain power indirectly in the long run and that somehow influenced his decision making. He had no way of knowing that and it didn't have any influence over his decision making. If you want to detract from Stannis' decision to go north the only thing you can really say is it was Davos's idea and not Stannis's idea. At the end of the day though it was still Stannis's decision. So I still award Stannis the brownie points he is due.

Lets take Dany's situation into account. It's not as if she isn't gaining anything out of her ordeal in Mereen either. 1. She's gaining valuable on the job training and experience on how to be a ruler by making Mereen into her own sand box playing with the city changing its societies culture and tradition on mere whims. 2. She's gaining the support of the Iron Fleet, and possibly a second dothraki horde. (if you try and take away from Stannis by saying he's gaining northern support, then you must similarly concede that Dany is gaining Ironborn support.)

[SeanF]

Xaro also says that the man begged Xaro to buy him, and Dany says, do it then. So she does see him as something to be bought and sold. It's implied, to me, that he's laboring against his will. I actually think that's the entire point of the conversation they have — Dany's a hypocrite.

I think it says a good deal about the condition of Mereen, in both ASOS and ADWD that free people wish to be taken away as slaves.

In Xaro's specific case, I don't dispute that the man is labouring against his will. But, I'm unclear whether it's because the government has seized him and forced him to labour, or whether it's economic hardship that has forced him to do so.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it says a good deal about the condition of Mereen, in both ASOS and ADWD that free people wish to be taken away as slaves.

In Xaro's specific case, I don't dispute that the man is labouring against his will. But, I'm unclear whether it's because the government has seized him and forced him to labour, or whether it's economic hardship that has forced him to do so.

Does it really make that much of a difference? He's laboring against his will without compensation in a city that is supposed to be free of slavery. That's the issue.

[IRON BANK]

Stannis gets a lot of plaudits round here for sailing North and putting his duties before his perceived rights.

However, in her own wee way, Dany shows a similar trait (albeit on a smaller scale) when she decides to stick round Mereen and try ruling instead of sacking and warring. i'Her plan flopped royally, but her attitude was admirable for someone so callow and dysfunctional. Don't think she gets enough credit for this...

PS I'm not a "fan" of particular characters over others, in case Stannis fans think i'm trolling them.

VERY TRUE: They laud Stannis on one hand, while Dany has done alot more with less of a kill count I might add. But at the end of the day thats the fascination with Stannis fans. he's violent crude and over righteous, takes on all comers. everything a fantasy entails gotta love it. lol!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

VERY TRUE: They laud Stannis on one hand, while Dany has done alot more with less of a kill count I might add. But at the end of the day thats the fascination with Stannis fans. he's violent crude and over righteous, takes on all comers. everything a fantasy entails gotta love it. lol!

I'm sorry but I have to dispute this. I'm willing to bet that when you tally up all the people whose deaths Dany has been responsible for — not just people she's killed directly but, say, people who died in Astapor as a result of her decisions — her "kill count" outweighs Stannis's. An entire city was wiped out.

[Nictarion]

Yes I agree Dany is trying to do right by her conscience by staying in Mereen, and this makes her deserving of the same type of brownie points that Stannis earned when he went to the wall.

However, I heartilly disagree with the assesment of some Dany fans here in this thread.

Claiming Stannis gained from going north to defend the wall. Yes, he is in a much better position now with the support of the North than he had been sitting all alone on Dragonstone. Hopever he had no way of knowing that by going to the north he would gain their support, he wasn't even sure his ships would succesfully make the trip. So don't try and say he only went because he would gain power indirectly in the long run and that somehow influenced his decision making. He had no way of knowing that and it didn't have any influence over his decision making. If you want to detract from Stannis' decision to go north the only thing you can really say is it was Davos's idea and not Stannis's idea. At the end of the day though it was still Stannis's decision. So I still award Stannis the brownie points he is due.

Lets take Dany's situation into account. It's not as if she isn't gaining anything out of her ordeal in Mereen either. 1. She's gaining valuable on the job training and experience on how to be a ruler by making Mereen into her own sand box playing with the city changing its societies culture and tradition on mere whims. 2. She's gaining the support of the Iron Fleet, and possibly a second dothraki horde. (if you try and take away from Stannis by saying he's gaining northern support, then you must similarly concede that Dany is gaining Ironborn support.)

Dany could have had Dorne, that would have been more valuable than a khalasar, and she wouldn't have needed Vic's ships. And she had no idea the Ironborn were even coming, or that she would ever see another large khalasar.

[IRON BANK]

I'm sorry but I have to dispute this. I'm willing to bet that when you tally up all the people whose deaths Dany has been responsible for — not just people she's killed directly but, say, people who died in Astapor as a result of her decisions — her "kill count" outweighs Stannis's.

You would be right. I more meant westeros as a whole. but you still have to admire Stannis and hi role in all those wars. and still wanting more.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You would be right. I more meant westeros as a whole. but you still have to admire Stannis and hi role in all those wars. and still wanting more.

Seeing as Dany hasn't even been to Westeros yet, that's an odd metric to use. Lannister Foot Soldier No. 43 has a higher kill count than her in Westeros.

[Nictarion]

I'm sorry but I have to dispute this. I'm willing to bet that when you tally up all the people whose deaths Dany has been responsible for — not just people she's killed directly but, say, people who died in Astapor as a result of her decisions — her "kill count" outweighs Stannis's. An entire city was wiped out.

How many died at the Blackwater and the Wall? I don't know exact numbers, but Stannis has been fighting a war for 4 books now. The numbers are probably comparable, but to me, Dany's cause is much more admirable.

[MasterJack]

Because we all know ppl in Essos arent real ppl so she can practice her ruling skills on em before the real deal (westeros). Fail Astapor, fail Yunkai, fail Meereen. Oh but She learnt that a gigantic army is on his way to kill her. Se she decided to stay there and "fix the problems" hidden behind the walls.

Her reason for staying in Meereen has 0 correlation with the enemy encircling her :D

[Nictarion]

Because we all know ppl in Essos arent real ppl so she can practice her ruling skills on em before the real deal (westeros). Fail Astapor, fail Yunkai, fail Meereen. Oh but She learnt that a gigantic army is on his way to kill her. Se she decided to stay there and "fix the problems" hidden behind the walls.

Her reason for staying in Meereen has 0 correlation with the enemy encircling her :D

She could have left with Quentyn.

[IRON BANK]

How many died at the Blackwater and the Wall? I don't know exact numbers, but Stannis has been fighting a war for 4 books now. The numbers are probably comparable, but to me, Dany's cause is much more admirable.

I congragulate you: this is one of the points the op is talking about, Stannis has a stick with it attitde to see things through. Dany does the same thing. however some fans can't see they have similair traits. what do you think?

[MasterJack]

She could have left with Quentyn.

"She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time"--Barristan