Dany...Duty vs Rights...

[Master Forel's Fro]

Dany didn't want to stay in meereen, George made her so his fav Lil Imp can have a journey across world.

I think Dany felt a duty towards the people she freed and she didnt want a repeat of what happened in Astapor, and the amount of people she killed weren't that many, isn't there like 10 slaves for every free citizen or something?

[SeanF]

We aren't given a clear idea of slave/free numbers in Mereen and it's hinterland.

[Nictarion]

I congragulate you: this is one of the points the op is talking about, Stannis has a stick with it attitde to see things through. Dany does the same thing. however some fans can't see they have similair traits. what do you think?

The main similarity, as was pointed out by the OP, is they both put their quest for the IT on hold for the greater good of the lands they are in. I just think Stannis had more to gain by doing such , than Dany did.

[Nictarion]

"She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time"--Barristan

I agree with you, her refusal to Quentyn was one of the only times I actually got upset with Dany, but her reason for staying and seeing what she started thru, is admirable.

[IRON BANK]

Seeing as Dany hasn't even been to Westeros yet, that's an odd metric to use. Lannister Foot Soldier No. 43 has a higher kill count than her in Westeros.

So you would say the battle for Qarth, and slavers bay were more bloody, than the war after KR death. yes or no? But still Stannis fights for what he thinks is right and so does Dany I think this is a similarity. or we could argue semantics. for instance other nobles like lysa, hightower, and Dorne they wait to see what happens as these two (stannis and dany) characters do not. See the similarity; the stick with it no matter what attitude. the do it till you get it right.

[danm_999]

There is a similarity in that both Stannis and Daenerys believe their actions are motivated sometimes by their rights, sometimes by duty and altruism, sometimes by their judgement and opportunity and sometimes by prophecy or destiny and even sometimes by carnal urges. Of course, that's a rather simplistic and obvious measurement of a leader isn't it? It's not exactly rare for people in power to 'motivated' and have 'stick to it-iveness'.

However, in their ability for introspection, their ability to form coherent strategies, and in their ability to listen and implement wise advice, Daenerys record is rather poor, whilst Stannis' is strong. It really says something that despite the fact he has no POV, and thus we get no inner monologue, it's much easier to articulate Stannis' short and long term plans than Daenerys, whom we have a POV for.

[IRON BANK]

There is a similarity in that both Stannis and Daenerys believe their actions are motivated sometimes by their rights, sometimes by duty and altruism, sometimes by their judgement and opportunity and sometimes by prophecy or destiny and even sometimes by carnal urges. Of course, that's a rather simplistic and obvious measurement of a leader isn't it? It's not exactly rare for people in power to 'motivated' and have 'stick to it-iveness'.

However, in their ability for introspection, their ability to form coherent strategies, and in their ability to listen and implement wise advice, Daenerys record is rather poor, whilst Stannis' is strong. It really says something that despite the fact he has no POV, and thus we get no inner monologue, it's much easier to articulate Stannis' short and long term plans than Daenerys, whom we have a POV for.

True: with Dany you hear all the thoughts and doubts and with Stannis since we don't have a pov you just get the results. Which is why one reason I don't feel Stannnis won't make it to the end of this story. He isn't a main character or very diverse. you know his actions before they even are articulated by a diffrent characters pov.

[danm_999]

True: with Dany you hear all the thoughts and doubts and with Stannis since we don't have a pov you just get the results. Which is why one reason I don't feel Stannnis won't make it to the end of this story. He isn't a main character or very diverse. you know his actions before they even are articulated by a diffrent characters pov.

Well, you do hear the doubts with Stannis though. Stannis, unlike Daenerys, seems to be a very introspective character, despite his reputation for rigidity. Yet at the same time he's able to articulate a clear vision of what he's looking to achieve.

Whereas Daenerys seems to explicitly forbid herself from examining her actions in too much detail, fearing she'll 'lose' herself. At the end of ASoS, I honestly don't know what she actually wants, whereas I can very easily explain Stannis' motivations and plans.

Honestly, it should be backwards; Stannis, the non-POV character, should be the more enigmatic one whose motivations and long term goals I'm unsure of. Daenerys, the major POV-character, should be the (relatively) open book, who knows what she wants, and how she's going to achieve it.

[Lion of Judah]

We don't actually know much about the power structure in Meereen as it existed before Dany's attack. We don't know if only some of the nobility had a say in what happened, or whether the government functioned like the Roman Senate. And if it did, what about those who did not favor crucifying children? There are just too many variables and collective punishment is not the way to address them. In this case, a substantial number of the people murdered by Dany probably were innocent. We have no way of knowing and her lack of willingness to make any sort of determination of who gave the order is a huge red flag.

Tokars symbolize nobility, not necessarily participation in slavery. They are the garments of the rich who needn't labor for a living, but there were probably members of the Astapor nobility who made money in other trades. Dany ordered the murder of any individual over 12 and wearing a tokar. That's essentially an order to murder everyone in the ruling class, regardless of what they themselves might have done or not done. Given the way people on this board get upset about the treatment of people in their teens, the slaughter of preteen and early teenage children alone makes this an atrocity.

We know that the city is ran by the Great Masters and just as we don't know if they all supported killing the children, we cannot say that anyone spoke out against killing the children. They were all unified and cheered as Oznak zo Phal mocked Dany at the gates, so all of a sudden we are suppose to think that they were divided on the issue of murdering 163 children? Assumptions work both ways

Astapor is called a slave city for reason, the business of the noble houses that run the city is slave trading. If they wore a tokar to symbolized their nobility we can be certain that they were save traders. Bricks and blood built Astapor, the city fills its coffers by taxing the slave trade so all hands have the blood of dead children on it. Each hand washed the other and if they didn't directly sell slaves they bought them or they facilitated the slave enterprise through other actions.

[danm_999]

Daenerys POV in ASoS describes a tokar as;

A garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor. It was the fringe on the tokar that proclaimed a man’s status, Dany had been told by Captain Groleo.

So quite plausibly, people who had little to do with slavery could easily have been wearing tokars. And if simply being the beneficiary of goods and services derived from slavery is a capital crime, I'm not sure Daenerys has clean hands on that one.

[Nictarion]

Daenerys POV in ASoS describes a tokar as;

So quite plausibly, people who had little to do with slavery could easily have been wearing tokars. And if simply being the beneficiary of goods and services derived from slavery is a capital crime, I'm not sure Daenerys has clean hands on that one.

Its also stated the only the extremely wealthy wear tokars, they limit your mobility. No working man would be wearing one.

[SeanF]

Daenerys POV in ASoS describes a tokar as;

So quite plausibly, people who had little to do with slavery could easily have been wearing tokars. And if simply being the beneficiary of goods and services derived from slavery is a capital crime, I'm not sure Daenerys has clean hands on that one.

Well, that's the question? Does participation in a slave-based economy merit death? Or is it simply that mass execution is the standard fate for the males of a captured city?

[danm_999]

Its also stated the only the extremely wealthy wear tokars, they limit your mobility. No working man would be wearing one.

No, while it's stated they're impractical clothing, it's never stated only the wealthy, or wealthy slavers mind, wear them.

In fact, they appear to act as formalwear, as both Daenerys and Tyrion observe people wearing them at special events like the re-opening of the pits, feasts, and at court.

When you begin executing people based on fashion, you go down some very dangerous roads. Especially given since time immemorial, aping the behaviour of the social elite has been something civilizations have always seen. Hell, Daenerys herself wears a tokar for political reasons.

[Nictarion]

No, while it's stated they're impractical clothing, it's never stated only the wealthy, or wealthy slavers mind, wear them.

Obviously working men would not be wearing them, you would be laundering your fancy tokars quite a bit if you actually physically worked in them. It seems pretty obvious to me, poor men and slaves wouldn't be wearing them. They might not all be slavers, but they are almost certainly wealthy.

[danm_999]

Obviously working men would not be wearing them, you would be laundering your fancy tokars quite a bit if you actually physically worked in them.

Obviously. But even the poor wear impractical fancy dress to funerals/weddings/special occasions. And Daenerys remarks how her dragons had drawn the crowd that day for the handover. This is one of the downsides of profiling.

[SeanF]

Wearing a tokar seems to me to be like wearing Morning or Evening Dress. The rich wear these clothes far more often than the lower classes, but the latter sometimes wear them on formal occasions. There is a real holiday atmosphere about Astapor, when Dany rides in with Drogon. Even slaves are allowed out to watch the show. I imagine that the people wearing the plain tokars are the non-elite free population, who've taken time off work.

[Lady Nastja]

I agree.

She should get credit for staying to clean up the mess, but it must also be recognized that it was a mess she created.

:agree:

[IRON BANK]

Well, you do hear the doubts with Stannis though. Stannis, unlike Daenerys, seems to be a very introspective character, despite his reputation for rigidity. Yet at the same time he's able to articulate a clear vision of what he's looking to achieve.

Whereas Daenerys seems to explicitly forbid herself from examining her actions in too much detail, fearing she'll 'lose' herself. At the end of ASoS, I honestly don't know what she actually wants, whereas I can very easily explain Stannis' motivations and plans.

Honestly, it should be backwards; Stannis, the non-POV character, should be the more enigmatic one whose motivations and long term goals I'm unsure of. Daenerys, the major POV-character, should be the (relatively) open book, who knows what she wants, and how she's going to achieve it.

it's interesting to me that you as the reader find that Stannis has offered more introspection than most main characters outside views. Even though Stannis himself is not a pov. in order to get a real introspective view one would have to be a pov in this Genre because within it we get a 1st person narrative literally. So in order to have true introspection into Stannis that's not really possible. until Stannis is introduced as a pov. However Stannis has been playing this Game of thrones in westeros for a very long time and is dealing with a lot of the same nobility. He's even marched on some of the same battlefields before. As with Dany's pov being younger and a main character you get more of a learning arc. It's easier for Stannis to have a clear cut vision basicly he is not a pov so we will never see the conflicts that rage in his head until we get that view. Dany however is a more complex character dealing with many different cultures in a far away place. Fighting major battles she lives in conflict and since we have a pov we are aware of the indecisions and can be a little more critical.