The Great Walrus Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 huh?What David just said was the point i was trying to make earlier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 To be honest, taking a child hostage for his father's good behavior isn't really honorable either. that wasn't about honor. That was about ensuring peace in the realm. Which is honorable really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Neds honour is very important to him. Yet he swallowed it for children all the time. He honestly must have believed that Jon was safer with everyone, bar none, thinking he was Neds own. This wasnt an easy decision from Ned but it kept Jon safe. He swallowed it again for Danaerys, Tommen and Myrcella and lastly for his own girls. Ned is an honourable man but also a good man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 But it totally was. Motives has to count for something when discussing morals.His motives were self serving. He saved his daughter and dammed thousand of others.To be honest, taking a child hostage for his father's good behavior isn't really honorable either.Except it is in Westeros and I don't think Ned would have killed a young Theon anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Neds honour is very important to him. Yet he swallowed it for children all the time. He honestly must have believed that Jon was safer with everyone, bar none, thinking he was Neds own. This wasnt an easy decision from Ned but it kept Jon safe. He swallowed it again for Danaerys, Tommen and Myrcella and lastly for his own girls. Ned is an honourable man but also a good man :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 What David just said was the point i was trying to make earlier... even that quote makes me wonder if she means she doesn't forgive him for making her live with the reminder or if she doesn't forgive him for cheating in the first place. The former is definitely something she holds against him. Not sure about the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 that wasn't about honor. That was about ensuring peace in the realm. Which is honorable really.Deposing Balon and installing a regeant for Theon would have been as effective (if not more), and considerably more honorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 Deposing Balon and installing a regeant for Theon would have been as effective, and considerably more honorable. granted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 To be honest, taking a child hostage for his father's good behavior isn't really honorable either.You mean taking a child and raising him as his own? I know weve jousted over this before but Theons life in WF was at least as good, if not superior to what it would have been on the Islands. Ned treated him well and he was best friends with the heir. Theon had a good life. Perhaps Ned didnt want to be in the position Robert put him in, but he made the best of it he could, which is extremely honourable. How would Theon have faired in CR, or other castles? Hard to say but he was not treated as a hostage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Deposing Balon and installing a regeant for Theon would have been as effective (if not more), and considerably more honorable.True but this isnt what happened. Ned did the best he could in the situation he was put in by his King, and he did well by Theon all things considered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You mean taking a child and raising him as his own? I know weve jousted over this before but Theons life in WF was at least as good, if not superior to what it would have been on the Islands. Ned treated him well and he was best friends with the heir. Theon had a good life. Perhaps Ned didnt want to be in the position Robert put him in, but he made the best of it he could, which is extremely honourable. How would Theon have faired in CR, or other castles? Hard to say but he was not treated as a hostageYet he was a hostage and was taken from his family. Theon sadly would never have been able to hold the Iron Islands, but Robert and Ned were far too forgiving. The older Greyjoys should have lost their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pootie Tang Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 His motives were self serving. He saved his daughter and dammed thousand of others.I really think you are too harsh on old Ned here. Should Ned have sacrificed Sansas life to provoke some uproar?Swallowing your honour is sometimes an even more honourable thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I really think you are too harsh on old Ned here. Should Ned have sacrificed Sansas life to provoke some uproar?Swallowing your honour is sometimes an even more honourable thing to do.I am not harsh on him and I don't blame him for the choice he made. In the same situation I would have made the same, but I don't think it was the honourable and probably not the right thing to do. It all depends if he realises that declaring Stannis as the rightful king would greatly shorten the war and bring stability to the realm. If he was aware of this and it is quite possible he was, then I cannot praise him for this act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Eddard Stark is a traitor. He conspired with his treacherous sister (who seduced a married man to get the throne) to hide the Targaryen heir from his best friend. A double agent, nothing less.Well, at least his actions led to the demise of House Stark, so he got what he deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 even that quote makes me wonder if she means she doesn't forgive him for making her live with the reminder or if she doesn't forgive him for cheating in the first place. The former is definitely something she holds against him. Not sure about the latter.The former is the bigger issue for Cat by far. There is a bit of the latter for sure, but it wouldn't have been an issue if Jon was raised somewhere else." She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You mean taking a child and raising him as his own? I know weve jousted over this before but Theons life in WF was at least as good, if not superior to what it would have been on the Islands. Ned treated him well and he was best friends with the heir. Theon had a good life. Perhaps Ned didnt want to be in the position Robert put him in, but he made the best of it he could, which is extremely honourable. How would Theon have faired in CR, or other castles? Hard to say but he was not treated as a hostageAmong his own, not as his own.And, as most of you probably already know, I disagree. Him being taken by the Starks is the reason why he turned out the way he has, he lost his position, his family, and was a hostage in everything but name. It fueled a serious identity crisis that led him to be so internally tortured.As for the question about how Theon would have fared in any other castle, GRRM already answered that one, just about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 The former is the bigger issue for Cat by far. There is a bit of the latter for sure, but it wouldn't have been an issue if Jon was raised somewhere else." She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight." what page? I wanna check myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 Eddard Stark is a traitor. He conspired with his treacherous sister (who seduced a married man to get the throne) to hide the Targaryen heir from his best friend. A double agent, nothing less.Well, at least his actions led to the demise of House Stark, so he got what he deserved. Lyanna Stark seduced Rhaegar Targaryen? Did we read the same story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 what page? I wanna check myself.It's in Cat's second chapter in AGOT, don't know the page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pootie Tang Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I am not harsh on him and I don't blame him for the choice he made. In the same situation I would have made the same, but I don't think it was the honourable and probably not the right thing to do. It all depends if he realises that declaring Stannis as the rightful king would greatly shorten the war and bring stability to the realm. If he was aware of this and it is quite possible he was, then I cannot praise him for this act.Ah, but here is where things gets dubious. In a code of honour, what does come first, your family or your king? Stannis certainly chose the latter and I think "most people" would too.And given this, and that I very much doubt that declaring Stannis the true king on the sept of Baelor would have provoked anything other then a very short and soon silenced public outcry rather than the impending conflict shortened, I think that the only truly honourable thing was to do what Ned did. But then perhaps the word Honour itself, and all its connotations are flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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