How Jon should be released from his vows

[Golden&Crimson]

Free from the vows:

- He dies, and stay dead, because, once you pronounce the vows, if you are alive, you belong to the Night´s Watch.

Not free from the vows:

- The Night´s Watch is destroyed: Jon is not free from the vows; he and the others sworn brothers should die in the service of the Night´s Watch, because , with the vows, their lifes are linked till the end to the Night´s Watch.

- He is ressurected. That means he is now alive - to your post again Jon!

[nirolo]

My favourite Jon scenes are the ones with Stannis, Mel, Arya and Tyrion (No NW brothers or wildlings) and I really liked the scene on the show with him and Jamie.

You didn't like Jon's brief, though passionate bromance with the Halfhand?

[Northbound]

I basically want Jon to say "fuck this shit, these Bolton and Frey cocksuckers killed my brother, and I'm going to destroy them for it. Those Lannisters killed my father, and I'm going to destroy them for it. I am Jon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, rightful king of the seven kingdoms, and I will take what is mine, and avenge Ned and Robb, with fire and blood. Once I've united the realms I'll come back and deal with these white walkers"

This. While I do not wish to see Jon on the Iron Throne. I do want him to acknowledge who he is and use it to save the kingdom. The Seven Kingdoms need someone to finally grow a pair and unite the people, in order to face the true threat. After that, let the chips fall where they may.

I should have stated that, i doubt Jon will be the one who takes out the Freys and Boltons. The Northern lords and Stannis, will do this long before Jon is brought back.

[Gannicus]

Although this isn't what I want, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it happens. Jon apparently doesn't hold his vows in the same high regard as other people - Maester Aemon never marched south during the War of The Ninepenny Kings or Bobs 'Bellion, and during Aegon's conquest, Harren's brother was LC, and he never marched to the Field of Fire. Jon Is weak.

Weak would be not having the courage to do what was needed.

He has been bending his vows but ultimately he has never broken them and most of his decisions have ultimately improved the NW's chance of holding when the others invade.

Someone who lives so rigidly by their vows are much weaker because they lack the flexibility to bend when the situation calls.

P.S. That's not a dig at Stannis. I'm firmly in his corner.

[Gannicus]

Free from the vows:

- He dies, and stay dead, because, once you pronounce the vows, if you are alive, you belong to the Night´s Watch.

Not free from the vows:

- The Night´s Watch is destroyed: Jon is not free from the vows; he and the others sworn brothers should die in the service of the Night´s Watch, because , with the vows, their lifes are linked till the end to the Night´s Watch.

- He is ressurected. That means he is now alive - to your post again Jon!

That's not the point of the OP. But it's lucky you're around with the official policy in case it's needed.

[naik2902]

kings landing will be shifted to castle black.

[nirolo]

Weak would be not having the courage to do what was needed.

He has been bending his vows but ultimately he has never broken them and most of his decisions have ultimately improved the NW's chance of holding when the others invade.

Someone who lives so rigidly by their vows are much weaker because they lack the flexibility to bend when the situation calls.

P.S. That's not a dig at Stannis. I'm firmly in his corner.

I have no doubt that Jon has the flexibility to bend when necessity calls. The problem is he didn't break his oath to strengthen the NW; he broke it over his love for his little sister (my interpretation).

[nirolo]

@ OP

I don't think Jon should be released from his vow; I think he should break it and break the hell out of it.

[Ghost's Shadow]

By sitting on their asses, they're only scr*wing themselves over.

[bemused]

It's not that a change needs to happen with or to Jon ( particularly not becoming undead ) , it's that a change to the Oath is due ( or overdue ). I look for some sort of revelation to occur that will cause a reevaluation of the oath itself. It needs to be stripped back to it's original core tenets ...the central " I am the sword in the darkness .." , etc. , that Sam recites to pass the Black Gate , and that Jon quotes to Bowen et al atop the wall. It needs to be freed from all the other additions in order to survive the threat of a long winter. It needs to become , once more , a thing that men will volunteer for, not be sentenced to , or accept because they have no other choice.

With only a relative handful of NW brothers left , and wildlings becoming the bulk of the defenders, the remaining NW brothers will feel discriminated against. The wildling defenders are men and women and have spouses and children . They may fight for a cause, but expect to claim their share of glory.

Jon has sworn, and takes those core tenets most seriously.They are what he responds with , when reminded that he swore an oath. The wildlings didn't take the oath, but swore to Jon , at least for the duration of winter ... so by following Jon ,they will be being being faithful to the heart of the oath as well , when it really counts.

I'm betting Iron Emmett(?) and Black Meris could tie the knot and the wall would not shake.

It may not happen first thing in TWoW ..perhaps it will need Sam to discover an early written rendition of the oath , or something like that.

[Ser Creighton]

And yet, if power were offered to him, so he could order more people to the Wall, alert the North to what is coming, would he do it?

Stop. There is no moment in this story where he is going to do that and people will just be like ok, he is the king cause he said so lets follow him. Nobody is offering him power, if anything naming himself a Targaryen puts a big target on his back. Nobody gives a shit about the Targaryens. The Lannisters don't care, the Tyrells don't care, Dorne will probably hate him, this is not Elia's son. And look at that they are not rushing to join Aegon, they are investigating him and he has money, an army and Varys doing everything he can to pave the way of him and he looks like a Targ and has a known name. People know Rheagar had a son named Aegon. Stannis going to help Jon claim Westeros? Not likely. Little Finger going to do it? Hell no. The North? Even if he gets the will its just going to start another problem. Not to mention Jon does not want the North, when he first gets Long claw he thinks about Ice and taking the birthright of his true born siblings, and wonders what kind of man would do something like that.

Despite fan popularity almost nobody in Westeros gives a shit about Jon or knows who he is. Will this technicality get Jon free from his vows or that one? How does it not occure to people after five books that he is doing everything he can not to break his vows and every single time he tries, it fails. He is not leaving the wall. How can anyone miss that? His vows may not mean much to the fans but they mean a lot to Jon. Avery time he has tried to leave he ends reaffirming himself to the wall stronger than before. Jon is not going to war with Westeros. He already has a war he is dealing with, he thinks it's important.

A claim is not power, it's just words on paper at best. Power is the ability to enact the claim someting he does not have. It's not part his story. Sure it would be great if he could kill all the bad guys, but it wasn't Jon that killed Joffery or Tywin. Nobody in the books has more of a right to Wlder Frey's head than lady Stoneheart, he murdered her son and betrayed both her houses right in front of her, plus slit her throat. The Boltons are about to fight the battle of (spoiler)............ Ice and fire against Stannis. Multiple true born siblings of Jon still live who he would never steal their birth right from, by his own words he does not want that. If he finds out he is a Targ and not a Stark there is no way he steals that from them will or no will.

Technicality? Stannis is the rightful king according to Jon's own father, he didn't take the offer, and it gave him the best option to be released from his vows and avenge the Starks. Ned Stark named Stannis king, he didn't take Winterfell from him, and still thought of it as oath breaking.

Sure he desires things like Winterfell and revenge but in ASOIF desire gets you killed. When Jon was day dreaming about Stannis offer he thought about Winterfell and Val, and a son he would name Robb and Gillys child and the little monster could foster at Winerfell and he could rebuild it. But he also thought about the dream "you don't belong here, this is not your place."

Take a look at Brynden Rivers, what is he trying to do? Is he trying to put Jon on throne, rescur Bran or is he trying to stop the Others? Isn't that what he is tied to, dealing with the Others? Is he grooming Bran to take his place? Looks that way. And who stays by Jons side? Who gave away Jon's position when he tried to flee the wall to be with his brother? Ghost. Who tried to protect Jon and warn Jon about Marsh? Ghost. Now look at this passage from swords when Jon is unsure what to do, he wants Winterfell he wants the fantasy, but then who comes running out of the woods? Ghost, it was Ghost that gave him his answer of what his duty is of where he belongs.

"Red eye's, Jon realized, but not like Melisandra's. He had wierwood eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they had found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were gray, and black, and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, white as Snow." Note he uses his last name there not the word snow.

"He had his answer then." From Ghost, his most trusted, and most loyal friend, his guardian, the one that has always helped keep him on his path. When Jon made his choice to stay he was named Lord Commander, when he ignored Ghost and tried to leave he was almost killed. The bastard Brynden Rivers wants him at the wall because he knows who Jon is and what is coming. The old gods want him at the wall, and Jon wants to be at the wall to fight the Others. Jons destiny is laid out time and again, he is there to fight the Others. Dany has Quaithe and Jon has Brynden, both doing the same things in different ways and when both don't listen, both end up suffering. Dany stopped in Mereen, and Jon tried to leave the wall. Both got the whammy put on them. Despite all the rattles about Dany bing the Queen or Jon being the king, that is not their Destiny. The Others are no Red Herring, they are the real deal, do people think Martin keeps saying Winter is coming because it is snowing?

Maybe if Jon survives all this he will be named king if he pulls of the big hero move. Maybe he dies, and Dany is the queen, maybe both die, or maybe both live. But that is most likely the very end of the series, and not a whole lot is going to matter then. Jon stays at the wall and good things happen for him, Jon tries and leaves, not so good. Dany moving forwards towards westeros and good things happen for her. She stops, and not so good. Jon dreams of fighting the Others, Dany dreams of fighting the Others. Dany dreams of her flaming dragons, Jon dreams of a flaming sword. Dany actually dreams of the wall and the blue rose. Dany the prophectic dragon Princess with her three Dragons, no question who she is silver haired purple eyed blood of the dragon. The one person in the entire series who without question could name Jon a Targaryen without question and Jon fans want her dead. His damn aunt, the last of his blood on his fathers side. She is Jon's rival, she is Jon's enemy, she wants Jon dead. Oh and she is Jons best hope to live through all this. But I am sure she will just want to kill the last of her family for no reason. I am sure she will meet Jon and just hate him, like everyone else hates him. And I am sure he will meet her and her 3 dragons and be like no the Kingdom is mine, I'm the king, I am the King, do you want to wake the Dragon? No I don't want any help, I am the King and I will do it all by myself cause it's all about me, get out of my story, oh and the leave the Dragons, cause I am the King and you go now, and it's my story all mine. Basically I see people trying to turn Jon into Viserys. Fuck the wall, fuck the vows, fuck Dany, I am the king, and my enemies will know my vengance, they have woken the Dragon. Yes many Jon fans are turning him into Visyers or should I say into Visyers's fantasy. Tis mine by right, I have a will. Tis mine by right my family built it. Yeah huge difference there. Usurper dogs Baratheon, Arryn, and Stark. Usurper Dogs, Bolton, Frey and Lannister. Fire and blood, fire and blood. I am Jon Snow-Stark-Targaryen and you have wakend the Bastard-Legitimized-Rightful Dragon-Wolf-AA come again.

When the Others come Jons, name, rights, claims, history, parantage, are going to mean just two things to him, Jack and shit. yeah Jon is good, Dany is evil, she is a red herring and the story is all about him and waking his innner Dragon, the new title of the 7th book Crouching wolf, hidden Dragon. No longer multiple POV's just Jon chapters. Oh wait there will be an Ary and Sansa chapter. In both Chapters Arya and Sansa just stand on the sideline in cheerleading unifors chanting go Jon go.

Jon A-ah

He's a miracle

Jon A-ah

King of the impossible

He's for everyone of us

Stands for everyone of us

He save with a mighty hand

Every man, every woman

every child with a mighty

Hand

[Ittiz]

Dead men hold no vows ;)

[JuiceTonk]

kings landing will be shifted to castle black.

Hahaha "If I can't go to the Iron Throne, then bring the Iron Throne to me!"

Not sure if ruling from the wall is what you meant, but that's how I read it and I got a kick out of it :laugh:

[JuiceTonk]

I think Jon should stay. I'm sure someone else will come along who will dish out the revenge we all want onto the Boltons and the Freys, but if Jon is alive he should just keep his grip on the Wall.

Plus, if it does get confirmed that he is a Targaryen, he'd be kind of like Lord Commander Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers who was a "great bastard" just like Jon would be (I consider him one anyway, having been the bastard of two prominent houses). And wouldn't that just be neat.

[exiled prince]

While I don't think Jon will end up actually breaking his vow, absolutely I would rather he have a "fuck the police" moment instead of getting out on a double jeopardy technicality like, uh, dying but then not dying. The more I think about it though the more I think that's what GRRM will do — and in that case, it makes me wonder if the "assassination" wasn't designed to do that all along, by ... someone.

So you think that the assassination was created in order for him to just leave the watch on his own terms? or was it for the technicality that makes his watch "end"

[Jory Cassel]

Nah. If he didn't break his vow when he heard about Bran, Rickon, and Ned + Winterfell burning, he wont/shouldn't do it now. Robb was a warrior - he had it coming. And I doubt Jon cares about Cat. Dead or alive, he should remain a brother of the Night's Watch.

except now arya's life is at stake, jon doesn't now she's only a fake and he has to assume that she's on the way to him and needs his protection.

he probably wouldn't have made THE difference in Robb's war and he knows that, and (if im not mistaken) when the ironborn came to Winterfell,

he was 1. north of the wall on the ranging 2. he had no reinforcements.

now, with the wildlings to support him and ramsay threatening him, he is involved and empowered.

I should have stated that, i doubt Jon will be the one who takes out the Freys and Boltons. The Northern lords and Stannis, will do this long before Jon is brought back.

One of the few things that would piss me of. When he's brought back that late, he'll be changed, just like Catelyn

and pulling a LS 2.0 would just be fucking boring, seriously.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Val and the Wildlings might show us what they got. He doesn't even have to be dead, but they can just take care of him, and the ones doing the stabbing.

[AegonTargaryen]

I really like Jon, I like his arc and I really like the way he's evolved as a character. I also like the idea of the Night's Watch and keeping your oath.

Frankly though, Jon was raised by Ned Stark, a man who he will always consider a father, but Jon is the son of a wild wolf and a dragon, he is a Targaryen and I want him to embrace that. When someone says "you can't go south" I want him to reply that the "laws of men do not apply to dragons," and that fuck the the vows, he's not gonna leave his siblings to be hunted like animals by the same men who murdered his brother and best friend in the most heinous manner conceivable.

And honestly, the realm won't defeat the others with Ramsey in Winterfell, LF in the Vale, and the Lannisters on the throne. United Westeros will stand, divided Westeros will fall.

[Techelles]

I don't put much stock in the loophole theory. My money says that the Night's Watch will effectively cease to exist in the very near future, maybe even before Jon wakes up. At the Wall there will be chaos; Wildings vs. NW vs. Queen's Men. If whatever fighting that occurs between them isn't enough to obliterate the Watch, then an assault by the Others and a breach in the Wall will be. It would scatter everyone there across the north. If there is no Night's Watch, there are no vows to break. Jon will be left on his own to decide how to best defend the realm and continue the fight, which is the spirit of the vows anyway. At that point, if he needs to hold a title to carry on with the true mission of the NW and perhaps reestablish it later on, I think he will. King in the North. Or perhaps Regent in the North if Davos gets Rickon in the picture in time. The offer of such a position is far different coming from Robb than it is from Stannis.

Basically, Jon learned his lessons from Ned, Qhorin, Noye, and Aemon well. He'll do what's right. He'll do what it takes fulfill the primary mandate of the Night's Watch vows, even at the expense of his own personal honor, even if the NW itself no longer stands.

[Fire Eater]

Except the Watch was founded before the Wall existed.

The NW is dedicated to holding the Wall. The Wall will fall when the Horn of Joramun is blown.