How do you feel about Cersei?

[bbstark]

At no point did I ever defend Robert for being abusive, quote the contrary if you bothered to read my posts, and I find it insulting that you would suggest otherwise. The point I was making is about Cersei, and the fact that she would never be a loving wife, no matter who she married. If you want to read thins in my post that aren't there, feel free, but I never once defended Robert for his actions.

This is what you said.

I'm sure he would have, but I don't see Robert being abusive as part of his character. I see Robert more resorting to abuse after years of a disfunctional marriage with Cersei.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the difference between "being abusive" and "resorting to abuse", because there isn't one.

You still claim that Cersei is the source of this abuse, suggesting that she caused him to be.

I'm sorry if you are offended, but this is what your argument is stating.

[Groat]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the difference between "being abusive" and "resorting to abuse", because there isn't one.

You still claim that Cersei is the source of this abuse, suggesting that she caused him to be.

I'm sorry if you are offended, but this is what your argument is stating.

You think Robert would have beaten and raped Lyanna had me married her?

[theotherstaketheothers]

Cersei is the pnly person i did not sympathise with once we got her perspective. When i read Jamie's i really liked him and could understand why he made the decisions he made. When i read Cersei's it just confirmed to me that she is completely self serving and has no remorse for the decisions she makes. nuff said!

[bbstark]

You think Robert would have beaten and raped Lyanna had me married her?

Do you honestly not see what this question is implying?

if you say no, which undoubtedly you would, that implies that Robert beat and raped Cersei, because she was Cersei, and not Lyanna. That Cersei deserved to be beaten and raped

THAT is what your question is implying. Stop going down that road. Robert raped and beat Cersei because he was a dick, not because she deserved it.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Lets not go this direction

[bbstark]

Lets not go this direction

I agree actually. But it needs to be EMPHASIZED that it is absolutely the worst question to ask.

I actually cannot believe someone would even ask something like that!!

[Sansa_Stark]

Do you honestly not see what this question is implying?

if you say no, which undoubtedly you would, that implies that Robert beat and raped Cersei, because she was Cersei, and not Lyanna. That Cersei deserved to be beaten and raped

THAT is what your question is implying. Stop going down that road. Robert raped and beat Cersei because he was a dick, not because she deserved it.

That's not what he is implying. Stop looking for misogyny when it's not there.

[Apple the Great]

Absolutely no sympathy, and in fact, whereas Jaime has won me over, and I never thought that would happen, Cersei's chapters just reinforce my antipathy towards her. She's narcissistic, cruel, vindictive, paranoid and a massive bitch to be blunt. To those who say "but she loves her children", sure. But she overlooks all Joff's faults, and there were many, and overlooks Tommen, showing clear favouritism towards Joff so how good a parent is she? Not that loving your own children is the criterion for being a good person, let alone a good parent. I'll concede she's a more loving parent than Randell Tarly, but then, Sam is a much better person than Joff was so who is the real better parent?

[bbstark]

That's not what he is implying. Stop looking for misogyny when it's not there.

I'm sorry but that is exactly what it is implying.

If you like to prove me wrong, please do so.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Absolutely no sympathy, and in fact, whereas Jaime has won me over, and I never thought that would happen, Cersei's chapters just reinforce my antipathy towards her. She's narcissistic, cruel, vindictive, paranoid and a massive bitch to be blunt. To those who say "but she loves her children", sure. But she overlooks all Joff's faults, and there were many, and overlooks Tommen, showing clear favouritism towards Joff so how good a parent is she? Not that loving your own children is the criterion for being a good person, let alone a good parent. I'll concede she's a more loving parent than Randell Tarly, but then, Sam is a much better person than Joff was so who is the real better parent?

:o I agree with you

[mrunderhill]

I think we all have idea that love is this selfless feeling, and we constantly forget that love can be also perverse, possessive and destructive. Also, woman`s love and mother`s love isn`t comparable. Mothers love unconditionally, women don`t. She loved Jaime in a tragic, disturbed way, even wrong, but that was some sort of twisted love.

I would argue that is not actually love. When you love someone, you do what you consider is best for them and want them to be happy. You can have unconditionaly love for friends and lovers, which is unconditional, this love is not restrcited to a mother alone.

You keep saying she loved Jaime, but where is the evidence for this?

Let we don`t forget he did push a child off the window. And Tyrion started showing the same possessiveness with Shae Cersei showed with Jaime. Well, I am not sure about Jaime, but Tyrion did kill a singer.

Yes and it was his most vile act and even then he did it on the spur of the moment to save Cersei. Tyrion was prepared to let Shae go several times, though if he loved her is questionable in itself. Tyrion killed the singer, because he threatened to endager Shae's life. Again not a good act, but no where near Cersei's several bad acts.

The marriage was over with Lyanna`s name. And more than that, whenever raping began, she didn`t deserve it. Yes, she was cheating him, but unlike him, she did it discretly. He never knew about Jaime. He, on the other hand, was doing all in his power to humiliate her. I think he was basically angry or jealous of Tywin, and he made his daughter suffer. Robert did a terrible damage to Cersei.

LOL. Sorry so now it is okay to cheat on your partner if you do it discreetly? So the crime is getting caught? Quite honestly I would prefer something in the open than hidden away.

As far as Robert with Jaime, I have always thought he knew a lot more than he let on. His hatred and intense desire to see Jaime humiliated seems very strange I don't see Robert being jealous of Tywin at all. I think he deep down, even though he tried to bury it, he felt unease about her and Jaime.

Cersei did not deserve to be raped, but her cruel and evil actions started way before that and continued long after that. Many noble women have been in the position of Cersei and few have turned out as badly as she did.

[Mladen]

You think Robert would have beaten and raped Lyanna had me married her?

This is the most despicable thing I have read in quite the time...

[bbstark]

This is the most despicable thing I have read in quite the time...

I'm pretty disgusted myself.... :ack:

but yeah, of course, let's defend it:

That's not what he is implying. Stop looking for misogyny when it's not there.

[The Wolves]

I hate her I can't sympathize with her in anything because she's incapable of sympathizing with anyone. I don't see how Cersei became who we see in ASOIAF because there's nothing in her backstory that gives reason why she is who she is.

I think she deserved everything she got(after Robert dying)from her being stripped of her regency to her walk of shame.

There is no fitting punishment(not even death)that Cersei should get for her and others plunging the realm into war which has resulted in death, pain, horrors, starvation, unspeakable atrocities and other stuff that she doesn't care about. I can't feel for a person who has made so many suffer and has not thought twice about it or once.

What I don't like is the continuous belief that Cersei has been manipulating Jamie his whole worthless life. Cersei never manipulated him

[Mladen]

LOL. Sorry so now it is okay to cheat on your partner if you do it discreetly? So the crime is getting caught? Quite honestly I would prefer something in the open than hidden away.

As far as Robert with Jaime, I have always thought he knew a lot more than he let on. His hatred and intense desire to see Jaime humiliated seems very strange I don't see Robert being jealous of Tywin at all. I think he deep down, even though he tried to bury it, he felt unease about her and Jaime.

No, it`s not, but in that interaction between them, Robert destroyed it too. He was openly cheated on her, even recognized one of his bastards. He hadn`t much consideration for her feelings. Also, I don`t think he ever doubted. Even a doubt would cost a Cersei head, so I think he was acting based on the fact he couldn`t do anything to Tywin whom he hated because of debts and Cersei, and he made of Cersei`s marriage life hell.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I hate her I can't sympathize with her in anything because she's incapable of sympathizing with anyone. I don't see how Cersei became who we see in ASOIAF because there's nothing in her backstory that gives reason why she is who she is.

I think she deserved everything she got(after Robert dying)from her being stripped of her regency to her walk of shame.

There is no fitting punishment(not even death)that Cersei should get for her and others plunging the realm into war which has resulted in death, pain, horrors, starvation, unspeakable atrocities and other stuff that she doesn't care about. I can't feel for a person who has made so many suffer and has not thought twice about it or once.

What I don't like is the continuous belief that Cersei has been manipulating Jamie his whole worthless life. Cersei never manipulated him

I agree but to me, she isn't without redeemable qualities.

[bbstark]

LOL. Sorry so now it is okay to cheat on your partner if you do it discreetly? So the crime is getting caught? Quite honestly I would prefer something in the open than hidden away.

As far as Robert with Jaime, I have always thought he knew a lot more than he let on. His hatred and intense desire to see Jaime humiliated seems very strange I don't see Robert being jealous of Tywin at all. I think he deep down, even though he tried to bury it, he felt unease about her and Jaime.

It's amazing the lengths people will go to to defend Robert and villify Cersei for the same crime.

Now it's ok because it's out in the open, whereas Cersei is hiding her infidelity?

The only reason it's ok for Robert and not for Cersei is because he is King and can give the order to lop of her head, whereas she can't and has to grin and bear it.

[Scipio Africanus]

I agree but to me, she isn't without redeemable qualities.

The only redeemable quality that she has is amusing me with her obscene lack of sense of reality in her POVs. Well that and I suppose she does love her offspring.

I particulairly dislike the way she packs people off to get tortured for no real reason other than she can. If she weren't a POV (and thus drawing the sympaphy card) she'd be rated just as bad as mr. Mountain or Shagwell or Ramsay.

[mrunderhill]

It's amazing the lengths people will go to to defend Robert and villify Cersei for the same crime.

Now it's ok because it's out in the open, whereas Cersei is hiding her infidelity?

The only reason it's ok for Robert and not for Cersei is because he is King and can give the order to lop of her head, whereas she can't and has to grin and bear it.

I am not defending Robert. This discussion is about Cersei. Too many people seem keen to defend their favourite character on their agenda's. An open affair is still better than a silent one, since at least you can face reality. Quite frankly I would rather know I was cheated on than live in a fantasy land. This is why I have often criticised Ned for not tellig Robert the truth.

I don't think it is acceptable to cheat on your spouse. I respect Ned(probably), Catelyn and Jaime for being loyal.

[Sansa_Stark]

I didn't take it as him saying "Cersei deserved to be raped and beaten" as much as I saw it as a pointing out flaws in Robert's character. We know the man is scared of enemies that he can't swing his warhammer at, and that he can't face the facts when it down to it.

Cersei is crazy, and did make herself out to be Robert's enemy, and that led to the abuse that she got. That's not to say that she deserved what she got.

It's just pointing out the serious flaws the man has.