Top 10 Best Written Characters?

[larastone]

Agreed on part 1

On part two, I see where you're coming from, but I actually enjoy the fact that GRRM wrote a complex AND close to irredeemable female villain. Most writers seem afraid of it, else they'd be called misogynistic, but to me it's not only a bold move, but it also denote a more genuine form of feminism : Yes women can be absolutely awful, because women are people and can display every and any type of behavior and personality.

I get what you're saying, but IMO there isn't enough empathy in regards from Martin towards Cersei to actually pull that off. If you want to see a truly great female villain, look at Amy Dunne from Gone Girl. She is even colder than Cersei in some ways, but she just works so so well because as fucking awful as she is, you can truly feel the empathy pouring from Gillian Flynn when she's writing about her. and Gillian Flynn doesn't even add in stuff like Amy being sexually assaulted to garner sympathy from readers or give anywhere as much as the reasons that Martin does for Cersei being so fucking awful.

and the fact that Jaime gets a redemption arc at the same time while Cersei gets a madness arc is just so cliche lmao. part of the reason why I'm started to dislike redemption arcs is because I feel like its never ever women characters that get them, its always men.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

lol yeah and fuck martin for that tbh. there's something about it that just rubs me the wrong way that he can write tyrion and jaime being horrible and also be antiheroes but he can't do the same with cersei even though he did make an effort to give her complexity and layers.

i like that cersei is tenacious and tells herself to be brave even though everything around her is falling apart and she is watching her own downfall happen. i also like that most of her problems are so inherently female but then she reacts to them in ways that so traditionally masculine.

No complaints about Gregor being too evil, no complaints about Ramsay being too evil, no complaints about Joffrey being too evil, no complaints about Vargo Hoat being too evil, no complaints about most of the male great/wise/good masters of slavers bay being cartoon level evil and stupid.

However you made one female character irredeemably evil, fuck you author.

[larastone]

No complaints about Gregor being too evil, no complaints about Ramsay being too evil, no complaints about Joffrey being too evil, no complaints about Vargo Hoat being too evil, no complaints about most of the male great/wise/good masters of slavers bay being cartoon level evil and stupid.

However you made one female character irredeemably evil, fuck you author.

lol please gregor and ramsay are cartoony horror movie evil. honestly i see them more as plot devices rather than actual characters. they're also not POV characters. and vargo hoat is like a D list character, he's as minor as they come.

and even as an irredeemably evil female villain, the writing for cersei just isn't consistent enough imo.

[Cas Stark]

I get what you're saying, but IMO there isn't enough empathy in regards from Martin towards Cersei to actually pull that off. If you want to see a truly great female villain, look at Amy Dunne from Gone Girl. She is even colder than Cersei in some ways, but she just works so so well because as fucking awful as she is, you can truly feel the empathy pouring from Gillian Flynn when she's writing about her. and Gillian Flynn doesn't even add in stuff like Amy being sexually assaulted to garner sympathy from readers or give anywhere as much as the reasons that Martin does for Cersei being so fucking awful.

and the fact that Jaime gets a redemption arc at the same time while Cersei gets a madness arc is just so cliche lmao. part of the reason why I'm started to dislike redemption arcs is because I feel like its never ever women characters that get them, its always men.

It seems like your main objection to Cersei not getting enough sympathy, empathy or redemption is that she's a woman. There are plenty of other wholly unsympathetic male villains, and most of them have stronger reasons and backgrounds that explain how they descended into villainy than Cersei. There is no reason why she turned out to be a villain except that she is the proverbial 'bad seed' and I have always said she would have been a terrible person even if Ned Stark had been her father instead of Tywin because she has a personality disorder, it isn't Tywin's fault, or Bob's fault or the fault of Westerosi society, it is the flaws within her that made her what she is.

[The Taxman]

1. Jaime

2. Theon

You can't place Theon above Jaime due to his inconsistency. As others have previously mentioned, Theon doesn't really take off until ADWD. Jaime on the other hand has steadily been the best chapters in almost every book.

[larastone]

It seems like your main objection to Cersei not getting enough sympathy, empathy or redemption is that she's a woman. There are plenty of other wholly unsympathetic male villains, and most of them have stronger reasons and backgrounds that explain how they descended into villainy than Cersei. There is no reason why she turned out to be a villain except that she is the proverbial 'bad seed' and I have always said she would have been a terrible person even if Ned Stark had been her father instead of Tywin because she has a personality disorder, it isn't Tywin's fault, or Bob's fault or the fault of Westerosi society, it is the flaws within her that made her what she is.

if that's what you think is true. the fact that ABSOULTELY NOTHING in her life had ANY INFLUENCE on her at all..... then GRRM shouldn't have added Tywin or Bob's abuse on her imo. he shouldn't have added Maggy's prophecy or any of that crap or her children or her fancying Rhaegar or the walk of shame. or any moments of vulnerability that she has or given her a POV. just literally let her be a 1D flop like Gregor, I think I might have preferred that tbh

[FacelessMan666]

1. Theon/Reek

2. Jaime Lannister

(These 2 are levels above other characters in the series. 10/10 writing)

3. Arya Stark (her POVs have always been great)

4. Cersei Lannister

5. Tyrion

6. Jon Snow

7. Joffrey Baratheon (for a non pov his character was captured well)

8. Davos Seaworth

9. Eddard Stark

10. Victarion Greyjoy

Some of my favourite chapters in the book series are the Prologues and Epilogues though. They are always up there with the best chapters in the respective books.

[Ramsay Gimp]

1. Jaime

2. Theon

You can't place Theon above Jaime due to his inconsistency. As others have previously mentioned, Theon doesn't really take off until ADWD. Jaime on the other hand has steadily been the best chapters in almost every book.

I thought Theon's story in ACOK was very good. Interestingly, HBO added some scenes and dialogue that made it even better in the show (despite cutting the Reek plotline and therefore making the Theon-Ramsay relationship less interesting)

I don't recall the things you're mentioning. but i could believe that tywin maybe wanted her to have some behind the scenes power but not actual outright power in the same way as jaime

Well, outright power simply wouldn't be available to her unless her father and husband were dead. Jaime, OTOH, would inherit his father's lands and titles in normal circumstances. That's just the way the system is set up, Tywin didn't make it that way.

Tywin seems shocked at Cersei and Joffrey's political mistakes in AGOT, and tries to marry her off in ASOS partly to get her away from the power in King's Landing. He also tells Jaime in ASOS that he wants Tommen away from his mother. And given how she ruled in AFFC, it's hard to fault Tywin or Kevan for that.

But I agree with you regarding her lack of depth compared to Jaime or Tyrion, or even Tywin. Also about the lack of female redemption arcs

[Oafkeeper]

I started my list with Strong Belwas and after that everyone seemed shit tier.

[larastone]

I thought Theon's story in ACOK was very good. Interestingly, HBO added some scenes and dialogue that made it even better in the show (despite cutting the Reek plotline and therefore making the Theon-Ramsay relationship less interesting)

Well, outright power simply wouldn't be available to her unless her father and husband were dead. Jaime, OTOH, would inherit his father's lands and titles in normal circumstances. That's just the way the system is set up, Tywin didn't make it that way.

Tywin seems shocked at Cersei and Joffrey's political mistakes in AGOT, and tries to marry her off in ASOS partly to get her away from the power in King's Landing. He also tells Jaime in ASOS that he wants Tommen away from his mother. And given how she ruled in AFFC, it's hard to fault Tywin or Kevan for that.

But I agree with you regarding her lack of depth compared to Jaime or Tyrion, or even Tywin. Also about the lack of female redemption arcs

I actually don't believe that Tywin has more depth than her, but then again I don't particularly care about political competence in regards to liking characters.

I agree that Cersei is politically incompetent but I still think Tywin was an abusive father towards her and that shaped who she is. I also think that if he truly wanted her to be able to weild power effectively that he should have prepared and trained her more for it, instead of marrying her off to Bobby B.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

if that's what you think is true. the fact that ABSOULTELY NOTHING in her life had ANY INFLUENCE on her at all..... then GRRM shouldn't have added Tywin or Bob's abuse on her imo. he shouldn't have added Maggy's prophecy or any of that crap or her children or her fancying Rhaegar or the walk of shame. or any moments of vulnerability that she has or given her a POV. just literally let her be a 1D flop like Gregor, I think I might have preferred that tbh

Perhaps they did have some effect on Cersei we really can't be sure, but a lot of the circumstantial evidence leads me to believe she still would have been a nasty person so the negative effects on her personality in my opinion would be negligible. Even if those actions had no significant effect on Cersei herself it's still useful information to include as it tells us a great deal about Tywin and Bob and is a piece of the puzzle as far as understanding the social systems that exist in the world and is an important component in the world building.

[Cas Stark]

if that's what you think is true. the fact that ABSOULTELY NOTHING in her life had ANY INFLUENCE on her at all..... then GRRM shouldn't have added Tywin or Bob's abuse on her imo. he shouldn't have added Maggy's prophecy or any of that crap or her children or her fancying Rhaegar or the walk of shame. or any moments of vulnerability that she has or given her a POV. just literally let her be a 1D flop like Gregor, I think I might have preferred that tbh

Life always influences you, but then I would say it's a testament to how disturbed she is, that having every privilege that exists in Westeros, beauty, intelligence, wealth, a powerful family, power in her own right, she still ended up bat shit crazy. Compare her to Dany, who was dealt a much tougher hand, but she managed to make it work, she was married into a culture that makes Westeros look modern, but she makes it work, triumphs over it. Cersei, she takes a fundamentally decent though flawed guy, and manages to create a marriage that is hellish for them both, because that's who she is. She's a destroyer.

But, we're not going to agree on Cersei, which is okay.

[larastone]

Life always influences you, but then I would say it's a testament to how disturbed she is, that having every privilege that exists in Westeros, beauty, intelligence, wealth, a powerful family, power in her own right, she still ended up bat shit crazy. Compare her to Dany, who was dealt a much tougher hand, but she managed to make it work, she was married into a culture that makes Westeros look modern, but she makes it work, triumphs over it. Cersei, she takes a fundamentally decent though flawed guy, and manages to create a marriage that is hellish for them both, because that's who she is. She's a destroyer.

But, we're not going to agree on Cersei, which is okay.

No we are not going to agree because a rapist and a wife beater and someone who condones child murder is a monster in my eyes and could never ever be a fundamentally decent person in any shape or form. robert is a grey character i agree, but as a person he's a monster in my eyes

i also don't think that beauty and wealth makes one averse to mental illness and that mentally ill abuse victims should be give no sympathy or empathy

as far as dany is concerned, she's obviously a much better person than Cersei in every single and form but I dislike the notion that because she ended up falling in love with Drogo that she should be lauded over Cersei for that.

[larastone]

Perhaps they did have some effect on Cersei we really can't be sure, but a lot of the circumstantial evidence leads me to believe she still would have been a nasty person so the negative effects on her personality in my opinion would be negligible. Even if those actions had no significant effect on Cersei herself it's still useful information to include as it tells us a great deal about Tywin and Bob and is a piece of the puzzle as far as understanding the social systems that exist in the world and is an important component in the world building.

to me it comes across as him putting her in "her place" and punishing her and gratuitous shock value and abuse and sexual violence

[Oafkeeper]

Arya

Asha

Brienne

Catelyn

Cersei

Davos

Dany

Jaime

Stannis

Tyrion

It was personal faves and most entertaining on a personal level I'd probably swap out some of the POV characters for more minor ones.

[Cas Stark]

No we are not going to agree because a rapist and a wife beater and someone who condones child murder is a monster in my eyes and could never ever be a fundamentally decent person in any shape or form. robert is a grey character i agree, but as a person he's a monster in my eyes

i also don't think that beauty and wealth makes one averse to mental illness and that mentally ill abuse victims should be give no sympathy or empathy

as far as dany is concerned, she's obviously a much better person than Cersei in every single and form but I dislike the notion that because she ended up falling in love with Drogo that she should be lauded over Cersei for that.

The difference between Dany and Cersei is that t hey were both put in a difficult situation, Dany could easily have hated Drogo, why not? He's a slaver, killer, rapist, she can't even converse with him, she's stuck on a horse in the grasslands all day. But instead of hating him, she seeks to understand him and his culture and through that step toward him...she finds salvation and love. Cersei, she's queen in her own country, has everything she ever desired, but as soon as Robert says Lyanna's name on their wedding night, she hates him from then on and there was never going to be anything but sorrow for both of them, instead of a Dany choice of understanding, of trying to find something to make things work, she makes a Cersei choice of destruction and hate.

[larastone]

The difference between Dany and Cersei is that t hey were both put in a difficult situation, Dany could easily have hated Drogo, why not? He's a slaver, killer, rapist, she can't even converse with him, she's stuck on a horse in the grasslands all day. But instead of hating him, she seeks to understand him and his culture and through that step toward him...she finds salvation and love. Cersei, she's queen in her own country, has everything she ever desired, but as soon as Robert says Lyanna's name on their wedding night, she hates him from then on and there was never going to be anything but sorrow for both of them, instead of a Dany choice of understanding, of trying to find something to make things work, she makes a Cersei choice of destruction and hate.

ok i think we really are going to need to end this conversation because i'm just getting grossed out at this point because while i can understand and empathize with an abused 13 year old girl falling for her abuser and captor. i highly fucking dislike the idea that abuse victims should "try to understand" their abusers and try to love them and owe them anything. seriously lets end it. i believe that cersei's hatred for robert is 1000% justified in the same way that tyrion's hatred for tywin is 10000% justified. seriously lets end it, because now you're going into territories that i find personally offensive.

oh and robert should have apologized for calling lyanna's name instead of raping and abusing cersei.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

to me it comes across as him putting her in "her place" and punishing her and gratuitous shock value and abuse and sexual violence

I think that is a far more apt description of things pertaining to Ramsay or Gregor or the slavers or Joffrey or Others or Vargo or any number of other sick things done in times of war .

The abuse Cersei endured although awful, didn't seem over the top or out of place in the environment Martin seems to try and build toward. Nothing in it seemed especially shocking or gratuitous as far as I'm concerned, sadly it seemed like run of the mill sexism which needs to be shown either through direct actions or character memories not just talked about to be effectively conveyed.

I'm just not seeing how Cersei's victimization is in any way over the top relative to vast amounts of content throughout the series displaying numerous examples of the horrors of war, socioeconomic disparity, gender discrimation, slavery, sadistic torture etc. I'm not sure how you'd even stand ASOIAF if this bothers you that much unless you are just really just fanboy/girling really hard and being overprotective of a character you seem to like a lot.

[Guard of the Rainking]

Yeah, Theon, Catelyn and Jaime are the big three. Other characters that I think are very well written are Tyrion, Ned, Davos, Arya, Stannis, Sandor, Dany and Tywin.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I actually don't believe that Tywin has more depth than her, but then again I don't particularly care about political competence in regards to liking characters.

I think he has a lot more depth than one would see at first glance. The humiliations he felt for his father, his love for Joanna, restoring his House as a teenager and then serving as the youngest Hand of the King in history, his genuine pride and hopes for Jaime and Cersei, and his relationship with Aerys all make him more complex than just "ruthless lord/shitty father."