Top 10 Best Written Characters?

[larastone]

I think that is a far more apt description of things pertaining to Ramsay or Gregor or the slavers or Joffrey or Others or Vargo or any number of other sick things done in times of war .

The abuse Cersei endured although awful, didn't seem over the top or out of place in the environment Martin seems to try and build toward. Nothing in it seemed especially shocking or gratuitous as far as I'm concerned, sadly it seemed like run of the mill sexism which needs to be shown either through direct actions or character memories not just talked about to be effectively conveyed.

I'm just not seeing how Cersei's victimization is in any way over the top relative to vast amounts of content throughout the series displaying numerous examples of the horrors of war, socioeconomic disparity, gender discrimation, slavery, sadistic torture etc. I'm not sure how you'd even stand ASOIAF if this bothers you that much unless you are just really just fanboy/girling really hard and being overprotective of a character you seem to like a lot.

I like ASOIAF a lot but I do think that in general that Martin's violence and especially sexual violence towards women can be gratuitous and shock factor. I don't have a problem with Martin creating an injust and violent world, but I do believe that there needs to be a balance. And I do think that balance is crossed many times. to me many times its just thrown in there for readers to go "god its sucks being a woman in westeros" and thats it. and i dont like that.

[larastone]

I think he has a lot more depth than one would see at first glance. The humiliations he felt for his father, his love for Joanna, crushing a rebellion as a teenager and then serving as the youngest Hand in history, his genuine pride and hopes for Jaime and Cersei, and his relationship with Aerys all make him more complex than just "ruthless lord/shitty father."

well I think Cersei also has these components in her if not more IMO, with how desperately she wants tywin's approval and wants to prove herself as worthy of holding power. her crush on raeghar, how she's so terrified about the prophecy, her trauma after losing Joffrey, her conflict about wanting to shield Tommen as a mother but wanting him to grow tough as a queen. and more.

[The Dragons Hand]

1. Hodor

Ehh, they're all pretty good.

My pantaloon's have been banned.

This will devolve into "These are my favorites." No different from me except I'd probably keep LSH until she does something. *I do consider her and Catelyn to be separate*

[Cas Stark]

ok i think we really are going to need to end this conversation because i'm just getting grossed out at this point because while i can understand and empathize with an abused 13 year old girl falling for her abuser and captor. i highly fucking dislike the idea that abuse victims should "try to understand" their abusers and try to love them and owe them anything. seriously lets end it. i believe that cersei's hatred for robert is 1000% justified in the same way that tyrion's hatred for tywin is 10000% justified. seriously lets end it, because now you're going into territories that i find personally offensive.

oh and robert should have apologized for calling lyanna's name instead of raping and abusing cersei.

I don't know what to tell you then, in the world Martin created there aren't any outs for you once you are married, you either try to make the best of it or you don't. I never saw Dany as a victim, I saw her as someone who took action to get her agency back and succeeded, but I know a lot of people saw Dany and Drogo as a stockholm syndrome type of thing where she was the powerless victim and their love wasn't real only her reaction to the situation. I never thought that was the story the author was telling. I'm not sure what there is to be personally offended about, but whatever, I certainly am not interested in such an exchange.

[larastone]

I don't know what to tell you then, in the world Martin created there aren't any outs for you once you are married, you either try to make the best of it or you don't. I never saw Dany as a victim, I saw her as someone who took action to get her agency back and succeeded, but I know a lot of people saw Dany and Drogo as a stockholm syndrome type of thing where she was the powerless victim and their love wasn't real only her reaction to the situation. I never thought that was the story the author was telling. I'm not sure what there is to be personally offended about, but whatever, I certainly am not interested in such an exchange.

i do see dany/drogo as stockholm syndrome and i believe its meant to be in the narrative. emilia clarke also sees it that way just so you know.

[Maid So Fair]

Jaime - he has an amazing arc, I went from despising him into making him one of my favourites.

Catelyn - the mama wolf is smart, capable yet very human.

Theon - Reek/Theon transformation was masterful and his ADWD arc is one of the best in the series.

Tyrion - character with a very unusual background portrayed in a realistic (I think) way, with flashes of good and bad in equal measure.
Arya - I've always loved Arya, and she has grown a tremendous amount since AGOT.

Sansa - it's a very subtle characterisation, but I think Sansa is very true to life and every girl/woman can find something in her to identify with. Another of very realistic and believable characters. I very much identify with her idealism.

Dany - most of her development unfortunately happens in AGOT, but what a development it is!

Jon - he was a bit bland at the beginning but once he got involved with the wildlings and had more difficult choices to make I really started rooting for him. One of the best arcs in ADWD, possibly with the exception of Theon's.

Ned - he seems like a very straightforward guy when we meet him, but then we discover there's layers and layers underneath

Lysa - I really don't like her, but I think her characterisation and the portrayal of her fragile mental state is spot-on. A crazy bitch you can really get behind lol.

Honourable mention: The Hound - perhaps better than Lysa.

[The Dragons Hand]

i do see dany/drogo as stockholm syndrome and i believe its meant to be in the narrative. emilia clarke also sees it that way just so you know.

I tend to agree. Imagine modern day Dany meeting someone just like Drogo, it wouldn't go well for him.

[Maid So Fair]

I tend to agree. Imagine modern day Dany meeting someone just like Drogo, it wouldn't go well for him.

But there's no such thing as modern day Dany or modern day Drogo. They're a product of their environment.

[The Dragons Hand]

But there's no such thing as modern day Dany or modern day Drogo. They're a product of their environment.

Modern-day as in Daenerys as she is now, and Drogo as he was.

Jhaqo and Mago isn't all that dissimilar.

[HexMachina]

But there's no such thing as modern day Dany or modern day Drogo. They're a product of their environment.

I think he means Dany with the Dragons and conqueror of Meereen.

Incidentally, a "modern day Drogo" is on his way to 'claim' Dany. Good luck with that...

[Maid So Fair]

Modern-day as in Daenerys as she is now, and Drogo as he was.

Jhaqo and Mago isn't all that dissimilar.

Oh I see, I interpreted that wrong. Well, she's a different person than she was when they met and she's in a completely different circumstances. Their very meeting would be impossible.

[The Dragons Hand]

I think he means Dany with the Dragons and conqueror of Meereen.

Incidentally, a "modern day Drogo" is on his way to 'claim' Dany. Good luck with that...

We have a winner

ETA: I think if Vicky manages ro ride a dragon his odds of survival increase.

Oh I see, I interpreted that wrong. Well, she's a different person than she was when they met and she's in a completely different circumstances. Their very meeting would be impossible.

What, she can't meet Drogo? Well yes, but Khal Jhaqo's forces are the ones that find her at the end of ADWD and Mago is Jhago's bloodrider.

[NorthGirl]

This does not reflect a specific ranking, they were just the ones that came to mind when thinking about the writing. Most of the characters are also ones I don't even like/care about but I can recognise the skill used to make them important and interesting.

1. Arya: character definition, her growth and her storyline is the only one where I had no idea what would happen next from chapter to chapter. The theme of identity in her story just works for me.

2. Theon: Duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh!

3. Catelyn: interesting psychology and the POV comes across really strong, I genuinely felt like I was watching her brain process.

4. Cersei: the crazy, man. I really enjoyed seeing hints of her crazy and then having a front row seat to the trainwreck to realise she 10¹⁰ worse than you thought.

5. Roose Bolton: (his presence permeates the story and his evolution to the foreground was a treat)

6. Melissandre: (it's always interesting to look at things from the perspective of a overzealous believer, her logic leaps are frustrating but you can see she has her own set of rules)

7. Stannis: All these family issues definitely make for an interesting man to read about, especially when we see him viewed by different POVs. His obvious inferiority complex mixed with his entitlement as a noble is interesting.

8. Doran Martell: I liked all the seeds being planted about his plans along the Dorne chapters. Even with Arianne completely oblivious, her account of his actions were just enough to see he only ever shows the tip of the iceberg. I also like the

9. Sandor: I love this guy who has just decided he can be bad or good, whatever in between. His lack of concern for social boundaries are amazing. The transition as he goes from Sansa POV to Arya's is interesting and of course Gravedigger.

10. Varys: The disguises, his origins, his goals, he is all at ounce very obvious about how threatening he could be and able to let others overlook him. Everytime he shows up, my antennas go UP!

[Maid So Fair]

What, she can't meet Drogo? Well yes, but Khal Jhaqo's forces are the ones that find her at the end of ADWD and Mago is Jhago's bloodrider.

Of course she can meet Drogo, but not in the same circumstances. She would never again be in a position where she has little choice but marry him, and therefore end up spending time together on his terms. I think AGOT Dany saw something in Drogo beyond his obvious harsh nature, certain kindness and even honour (that Jhaqo lacks), that made it possible for her not to outright despise him and to give the relationship a chance. At this stage not only is she a different person, but she would never be in a situation where she would be in a similar position she found herself at the beginning of the series. Therefore I don't believe what she would do now is really indicative. Does that make any sense?

[The Dragons Hand]

Of course she can meet Drogo, but not in the same circumstances. She would never again be in a position where she has little choice but marry him, and therefore end up spending time together on his terms. I think AGOT Dany saw something in Drogo beyond his obvious harsh nature, certain kindness and even honour (that Jhaqo lacks), that made it possible for her not to outright despise him and to give the relationship a chance. At this stage not only is she a different person, but she would never be in a situation where she would be in a similar position she found herself at the beginning of the series. Therefore I don't believe what she would do now is really indicative. Does that make any sense?

It does. But at the end of the day Drogo was the warlord of a army of rapists and slavers, a Daenerys who has no reason to get to know him and his dragons wouldn't react some passively in the beginning.

[Annara Snow]

I don't know what to tell you then, in the world Martin created there aren't any outs for you once you are married, you either try to make the best of it or you don't. I never saw Dany as a victim, I saw her as someone who took action to get her agency back and succeeded, but I know a lot of people saw Dany and Drogo as a stockholm syndrome type of thing where she was the powerless victim and their love wasn't real only her reaction to the situation. I never thought that was the story the author was telling. I'm not sure what there is to be personally offended about, but whatever, I certainly am not interested in such an exchange.

Killing your husband and getting away with it is a really good way of making the best of it. :thumbsup:

That's the one thing where I must say "Kudos" to Cersei. Denying him sex as much as possible, having children with who she wanted to, getting the drunken idiot killed, still reaping the benefits of the marriage.... Yeah, Cersei definitely made the best of her marriage! No matter how much I may dislike her for other things, I must respect her for that.

Sure, the realm may have been better off is she hadn't, but the realm would also have been much better off if Naerys and Rhaella had arranged little accidents for their husbands/kings.

[Annara Snow]

It seems like your main objection to Cersei not getting enough sympathy, empathy or redemption is that she's a woman. There are plenty of other wholly unsympathetic male villains, and most of them have stronger reasons and backgrounds that explain how they descended into villainy than Cersei. There is no reason why she turned out to be a villain except that she is the proverbial 'bad seed' and I have always said she would have been a terrible person even if Ned Stark had been her father instead of Tywin because she has a personality disorder, it isn't Tywin's fault, or Bob's fault or the fault of Westerosi society, it is the flaws within her that made her what she is.

I disagree. To me, it seems obvious that having Tywin as father is the main reason why all his children are fucked up, more or less, although Jaime has been the least influenced. Cersei may not be as competent than Tywin (though I don't think he was as competent as his fans think, he got lucky a lot in the W5K), but being ruthless and terrible to people, having no scruples, despising people of the lower classes, despising or hating almost anyone who is not a Lannister, believing that a ruler should make people fear him/her rather than love him/her, hating and abusing Tyrion and blaming him for Joanna's death, getting others to do her dirty work - all that she's learned from Tywin.

But I agree with you regarding her lack of depth compared to Jaime or Tyrion, or even Tywin. Also about the lack of female redemption arcs

Tywin hasn't got more depth than Cersei, IMO.

ok i think we really are going to need to end this conversation because i'm just getting grossed out at this point because while i can understand and empathize with an abused 13 year old girl falling for her abuser and captor. i highly fucking dislike the idea that abuse victims should "try to understand" their abusers and try to love them and owe them anything. seriously lets end it. i believe that cersei's hatred for robert is 1000% justified in the same way that tyrion's hatred for tywin is 10000% justified. seriously lets end it, because now you're going into territories that i find personally offensive.

:agree:

I don't hate Cersei for how she treated Robert, she was absolutely justified in my book. I hate her for how she treats other people who haven't done her wrong and who have far less power than her, who she victimizes and has no empathy for - Robert's children, her brother Tyrion even when he was a baby, Sansa, the dwarfs who got murdered because of her wish to get Tyrion killed, Falyse, the Blue Bard, her handmaiden and everyone else she gave to Qyburn...

i do see dany/drogo as stockholm syndrome and i believe its meant to be in the narrative. emilia clarke also sees it that way just so you know.

I don't think it's so much Stockholm Syndrome, as the fact that she came from an extremely shitty situation, living her whole childhood with a horrible, abusive brother, into something that was a little less shitty, and gave her, for the first time, an opportunity to get some respect, love, power from people around her. It's not surprising that she'd become fond of him in those circumstances, despite his shortcomings and his own shitty behavior (a comparison with Viserys will do wonders in terms of making someone look better). It's very different from a situation where a girl comes from a more or less happy childhood, more or less happy family life, where she has close loving relationships, and then gets married against her will to some stranger who doesn't care about her.

Plus, let's face it, the whole thing wouldn't have worked if there hadn't been any attraction between them. There's no amount of trying that would've made her marriage with Hizdahr work.

[Ramsay Gimp]

5. Roose Bolton: (his presence permeates the story and his evolution to the foreground was a treat)

Indeed, the way GRRM piques our interest and gives the impression that there is something not quite right about Roose, eventually culminating in the bloody reveal of his true colors at the RW, is awesome. He started as just one of many Stark bannermen, kinda creepy, and is now arguably the biggest villain in the series.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin hasn't got more depth than Cersei, IMO.

Then you're ignoring his early years

[Annara Snow]

Then you're ignoring his early years

I'm not, but I don't see how he's more complex than Cersei. I'm not sure I'd agree that she's less complex than her brothers, either - less likable, yes than Jaime and Tyrion, yes, but that's not the same thing.