[BOOK SPOILERS] Jaime?

[six]

I don't know if she can be classified as an unfavorite yet. I could be wrong, but up to this point in the books she hasn't done more then in the show.

She has though, they cut away the whole bit of Brienne finding out about the RW and her reaction to it, to rush them back to KL. I thought that in the books it was somethingt of a character defining moment for Brienne. I know, some say maybe we'll see it in season 4, but it would anachronistic so I doubt we will.

And Jaime has a few scenes in KL, which are important IMO. While it's true that he has no interest in politics, he wants to stay there to protect Tommen, and he gives advice to Cersei and realizes that she is incompetent.

They're important, but they're not scenes that necessitate to be stretched for too long, imo.

As for Brienne, to me her whole character is defined by her honor and wanting to fulfill her oaths, so I don't see how she could stick around in KL and not go on the quest. (it's also important for Jaime that he sends her, trying to fulfill his oath) So I think she will get her quest, but we won't see much of it. (of course I'm not sure, I just don't see how anything else could be in character)

Re: Brienne being a teenager and her coming of age story, it's true in the books, but I don't think it would work in the show. (GC is 35)

I see what you're saying and yes, you might be right. I don't know if it works on screen though, that's what I'm saying. If we don't see much of Brienne and her journey, and we're not conscious of how she feels about her promise to Cat and her personal feelings for Jaime, why would the audience care when she encounters LS? And that is provided LS is in, but if she isn't what would be the point of Brienne's quest? Because it was never about the quest itself, it's about the conundrum she finds herself in when she's captured by the BwB and forced to do something she doesn't want to do. But even in the books, we care because for chapters we got to know her, we know how much she wants to find the Stark girls and how much she's risking to keep her promise, and we know she has strong feelings for Jaime to the point she'd die herself rather than harm him. Unless we know all of this on the show, why would it matter?

Of course, they could change her journey completely, no LS and give her another storyline entirely...

[kecsek]

She has though, they cut away the whole bit of Brienne finding out about the RW and her reaction to it, to rush them back to KL. I thought that in the books it was somethingt of a character defining moment for Brienne. I know, some say maybe we'll see it in season 4, but it would anachronistic so I doubt we will.

They're important, but they're not scenes that necessitate to be stretched for too long, imo.

I see what you're saying and yes, you might be right. I don't know if it works on screen though, that's what I'm saying. If we don't see much of Brienne and her journey, and we're not conscious of how she feels about her promise to Cat and her personal feelings for Jaime, why would the audience care when she encounters LS? And that is provided LS is in, but if she isn't what would be the point of Brienne's quest? Because it was never about the quest itself, it's about the conundrum she finds herself in when she's captured by the BwB and forced to do something she doesn't want to do. But even in the books, we care because for chapters we got to know her, we know how much she wants to find the Stark girls and how much she's risking to keep her promise, and we know she has strong feelings for Jaime to the point she'd die herself rather than harm him. Unless we know all of this on the show, why would it matter?

Of course, they could change her journey completely, no LS and give her another storyline entirely...

They can still have her reaction to the RW, afterall neither her nor Jaime heard about it yet. And in the book it's a very short scene of Jaime remembering her reaction. I don't think they should stretch out Jaime's story in KL, but I think those scenes are more important then Brienne meeting some random characters that we will probably never see again.

About her quest, they have most of season 4 to establish her feelings for Jaime and her trying to do something about the Stark girls. I don't know how they gonna handle the situation with Sansa being in KL when Brienne arrives, maybe she Brienne will talk to her offers a rescue, but LF already contacted Sansa?

You're right about the need to develop her so people will care when she faces LS, but she needs to fulfill her oath otherwise LS is a kind of right to hang her. (I have no idea what they would do with her or Jaime if LS is cut. I imagine LS have to be included unless that whole plot won't go anywhere in the books)

[Le Cygne]

I don't think B&W stick to storylines based on how they advance the plot, it's about whether they like a character or not mostly e.g. Theon, Cersei or Tyrion's scenes that add nothing to the overall story.

That's what I was trying to say. I don't think they'll feature Brienne. I have no faith in these guys.

What I was doing was making the case for why they should feature Brienne. Why the arguments fall apart.

She's not advancing the overall plot - She is. I think she has everything to do with the main story (which they keep coming back to). Much more than the characters I named before (the minor ones whose roles have been expanded).

She's not popular - She is, she has a good following among readers, but non-readers like her, too. If there are a lot of Shae, Talisa, and Ros fans out there, I'm not seeing them. But their roles were expanded.

You can't show internal journeys on television - Totally disagree that you can't translate interior stories to the medium of film. The goodbye scene was very subtle and people got it and loved it. That was mostly looks. You can also have the person voice their thoughts to someone.

Nothing happens, which I suppose means there's no action - She's a fabulous knight in every sense of the word. She goes on a quest involving the two main families of the show and book story. She kills bad guys. She rescues kids. I named some of her fighting scenes, and these could be adapted to fit the show easily enough.

Nobody wants to see the romance parts of the books - I think that's false. Most people do like off beat romances (not cliche crap), and she's got the one with Hyle Hunt and the falling in love while apart Jaime ones coming up. People would eat these up if they did them right. Cast a good Hyle Hunt (like Eoin Macken). Play the Jaime ones up, show one of her scenes, then him smacking Red Ronnet, for instance.

They don't have time for characterization - They've devoted all of this time to the characterization of more minor/less compelling characters. Yet they turned female POV characters like Catelyn and Sannsa into supporting players. And I don't want to see the same thing happen to Brienne because she's no longer with Jaime, or for them have to change her story she can follow 10 paces behind and give him admiring looks,

[silentwanderer]

Jamie cannot and will not stick around much after PW enough to drive any man insane. He will need to get out of KL. No they really cannot change his arc that way, it will create way to many problems later.

I'm more concerned about the problems it creates right now.

Jaime came back to King's Landing with more than enough time to plan Joffrey's bachelor party.

Something has to be done with all that extra time the character never had on the books,

It seemed pretty restricting as it was when he was going to reach home by Joffrey's funeral.

Nice catch, 18 sounds about right. Jaime at 34 or so is about 15 years older.

I seriously doubt Renly would've allowed a 16 year old Brienne under his service, or an 18 year old Brienne retained for a suicide mission by a mother like Lady Catlyn,

It was bad enough that she was a woman, no one would trust her with a King or a Kingslayer if she was that younger (much less two teenagers as young as she was, like the Stark sisters).

[Colonel Green]

I seriously doubt Renly would've allowed a 16 year old Brienne under his service, or an 18 year old Brienne retained for a suicide mission by a mother like Lady Catlyn,

It was bad enough that she was a woman, no one would trust her with a King or a Kingslayer if she was younger than her male counterparts.

And yet the information given in the books suggests that was the case.

[Rose-Papillon]

I seriously doubt Renly would've allowed a 16 year old Brienne under his service, or an 18 year old Brienne retained for a suicide mission by a mother like Lady Catlyn,

It was bad enough that she was a woman, no one would trust her with a King or a Kingslayer if she was that younger (much less two teenagers as young as her, like the Stark sisters).

Or two girls as young

Trust me, he did. Brienne is at most 18 by Storm of Swords. Even Jaime makes a comment about her youth at one point, something like "why am I telling this absurd child?".

She has, of course, been aged up in the series.

[silentwanderer]

I seriously doubt Renly would've allowed a 16 year old Brienne under his service, or an 18 year old Brienne retained for a suicide mission by a mother like Lady Catlyn,

It was bad enough that she was a woman, no one would trust her with a King or a Kingslayer if she was that younger (much less two teenagers as young as she was, like the Stark sisters).

And yet the information given in the books suggests that was the case.

Then Renly must have died when he was 22 or 23: there's no way anyone would accept a 16 year old girl in his ranks.

Nor Lady Catelyn trusts a girl, as young her daughters, to outsmart Robb's men.

Especially not when Brienne had more than enough problems to cross the country with a swordsman such as Jaime as it is.

She has, of course, been aged up in the series.

So has Jaime, he has at least 40 if he's only 4 years older than Tyrion on the show.

[Boi]

I'm more concerned about the problems it creates right now.

Jaime came back to King's Landing with more than enough time to plan Joffrey's bachelor party.

Something has to be done with all that extra time the character never had on the books,

It seemed pretty restricting as it was when he was going to reach home by Joffrey's funeral.

I seriously doubt Renly would've allowed a 16 year old Brienne under his service, or an 18 year old Brienne retained for a suicide mission by a mother like Lady Catlyn,

It was bad enough that she was a woman, no one would trust her with a King or a Kingslayer if she was that younger (much less two teenagers as young as she was, like the Stark sisters).

It creates the obvious problems of kingslayer, will he get the blame from Cersei? With Littlefinger teleporting across the realm I suppose it couldn't have waited the extra weeks.

Jamie being in KL at this time gives his character extra Cersei time setting up drama of why see seeks Moonboys toys out, although he doesnt play with seashells that is Patchface. Maybe he will command the kingsguard better, arranging the Kettlebacks for Cersei real betrayal as she already had Lancel? Catching up with Tyrion in scenes to set up that release. Ultimately though it really isn't so much of a problem so long as he leaves KL after events PW etc, he cannot remain there logically.

Kevan Lannister has been seen at Harrenhall season 2? He will need to be in KL later. Possibly gifting the goldhand as he arrives.

Brienne is what 23-30 so she said in the series? In the books she had spurned lots of suitors from her father who sought to marry her, but remained a virgin still ,she would have likely been in her 20s. Her being in KL in the background not important dungeon time, or Tyrion could don a tiki v Brienne the bear and the maiden fair at the PW would bring jokes if the other dwarves aren't there, Assumption

[Colonel Green]

Then Renly must have died when he was 22 or 23

Except, based on the available information, he didn't.

[silentwanderer]

Then Renly must have died when he was 22 or 23: there's no way anyone would accept a 16 year old girl in his ranks.

Nor Lady Catelyn trusts a girl, as young her daughters, to outsmart Robb's men.

Especially not when Brienne had more than enough problems to cross the country with a swordsman such as Jaime as it is.

Except, based on the available information, he didn't.

To me, it all reduces to the fact Brienne was trusted with the so called "most brilliant swordsman/most handsome man" in the 7 Kingdoms.

There's no way Lady Catelyn would trust an 18 year old girl - still single - with Jaime Lannister. Not when she knew Brienne grew infatuated with Renly with far less.

...or when we know how Robb Stark lost the war for the daughter of a Lannister bannerman (Jayne Westerling).

It creates the obvious problems of kingslayer will he get the blame from Cersei? With Littlefinger teleporting across the realm I suppose it couldn't have waited the extra weeks.

Jamie being in KL at this time gives his character extra Cersei time setting up drama of why see seeks Moonboys toys out, although he doesnt play with seashells that is patchface. Maybe he will command the kingsguard better, arranging the Kettlebacks for Cersei real betrayal she already had Lancel? Catching up with Tyrion in scenes to set up that release. Ultimately though it really isn't so much of a problem so long as he leaves KL after events PW etc, he cannot remain there logically.

Kevan Lannister has been seen at Harrenhall, and will need to be in KL later. Possibly gifting the goldhand as he arrives.

Brienne is what 23-30 so she said in the series. In the books she had spurned lots of suitors from her father who sought to marry her but remained a virgin still she would have been around her 20s

I guess part of the tension with Cersei's infidelity will have to play sooner rather than later.

Aside Lancel, there's Joffrey's inner psycho just itching to have a word with his "uncle".

And the engagement to Loras they all have to deal with before Joffre's wedding.

[Colonel Green]

To me, it all reduces to the fact Brienne was trusted with the so called "most brilliant swordsman/most handsome man" in the 7 Kingdoms.

There's no way Lady Catelyn would trust an 18 year old girl - still single - with Jaime Lannister. Not when she knew Brienne grew infatuated with Renly with far less.

That's all your reasoning, but it's in conflict with the actual text, which gives information on the characters' ages.

[Boi]

Except, based on the available information, he didn't.

Only Renly would have been if you do the maths? In the series everyone is older for legal reasons 21 for sex scenes in the country where partly filmed in england on viewed channels? Im sure there is some related history of name days on Renly maybe 14-18 like Joffery? No I would have thought older?

To me, it all reduces to the fact Brienne was trusted with the so called "most brilliant swordsman/most handsome man" in the 7 Kingdoms.

There's no way Lady Catelyn would trust an 18 year old girl - still single - with Jaime Lannister. Not when she knew Brienne grew infatuated with Renly with far less.

I agree, part of the tension with Cersei's infidelity will have to play sooner rather than later.

Aside Lancel, there's Joffrey's inner psycho just itching to have a word with his "uncle".

And the engagement to Loras they all have to deal with before Joffre's wedding.

She wasn't the best swordswoman/man in the realms there where others. In their fight Jamie V Brienne it was as he said in the show as in the books. He believed she had the brute power over him but not the skill and was blamed as shackled while also not having the strength from his prison time. Jamie was the best in the realm in the books? He thought of himself as best though I am sure, there were others who would have argued. Various tournaments throughout having many champions at different times.

Why is everyone assuming Brienne is 18 she would probably have been older? I might be wrong

Jamie being here is for Cersei to blame and her rejection which is why he cannot remain afterwards.

The wedding to Loras was never going to happen, if until she became regeant and spurned that idea

Lancel is still in KL or did he go and get dad? Joffery is well as you say, the balls just aint dropped yet, clueless

[Chickren]

I seriously doubt Renly would've allowed a 16 year old Brienne under his service, or an 18 year old Brienne retained for a suicide mission by a mother like Lady Catlyn,

It was bad enough that she was a woman, no one would trust her with a King or a Kingslayer if she was that younger (much less two teenagers as young as she was, like the Stark sisters).

Are you seriously arguing canon? People in Westeros are adults by puberty. At 18 Brienne is a confirmed adult in that world, she would have been married for years at that point if her first betrothed had lived. She's a little older than Loras. No one's arguing about his fitness for duty due to age.

By the end of AFFC, she's 18 or 19. It's like, fact.

ETA: I'm not talking about her show age. We have no idea what age she's meant to be on the show.

[six]

snip

they turned female POV characters like Catelyn and Sannsa into supporting players. And I don't want to see the same thing happen to Brienne because she's no longer with Jaime, or for them have to change her story she can follow 10 paces behind and give him admiring looks,

Agree with all of this post, if they wanted they could definitely adapt it, like they adapted some other characters' journeys. But they don't seem to want to invest in Brienne.

I guess part of the tension with Cersei's infidelity will have to play sooner rather than later.

Aside Lancel, there's Joffrey's inner psycho just itching to have a word with his "uncle".

And the engagement to Loras they all have to deal with before Joffre's wedding.

But she's hardly cheated. They've changed the Jaime/Cersei dynamic quite a bit, it's turning all lovey dovey.

[Ser Luke.]

It creates the obvious problems of kingslayer, will he get the blame from Cersei? With Littlefinger teleporting across the realm I suppose it couldn't have waited the extra weeks.

Jamie being in KL at this time gives his character extra Cersei time setting up drama of why see seeks Moonboys toys out, although he doesnt play with seashells that is Patchface. Maybe he will command the kingsguard better, arranging the Kettlebacks for Cersei real betrayal as she already had Lancel? Catching up with Tyrion in scenes to set up that release. Ultimately though it really isn't so much of a problem so long as he leaves KL after events PW etc, he cannot remain there logically.

Kevan Lannister has been seen at Harrenhall season 2? He will need to be in KL later. Possibly gifting the goldhand as he arrives.

Brienne is what 23-30 so she said in the series? In the books she had spurned lots of suitors from her father who sought to marry her, but remained a virgin still ,she would have likely been in her 20s. Her being in KL in the background not important dungeon time, or Tyrion could don a tiki v Brienne the bear and the maiden fair at the PW would bring jokes if the other dwarves aren't there, Assumption

Gifting the golden hand is a good idea to reintroduce him :agree:

[Chickren]

Then Renly must have died when he was 22 or 23: there's no way anyone would accept a 16 year old girl in his ranks.

Nor Lady Catelyn trusts a girl, as young her daughters, to outsmart Robb's men.

Especially not when Brienne had more than enough problems to cross the country with a swordsman such as Jaime as it is.

Well, Renly knew how old she was, having known her since she was 12 or 13. So I guess the answer is: he did.

Renly's Age:

He is not Renly, Brienne realized. Renly is dead. Renly died in my arms, a man of one-and-twenty. This is a only a boy.. (Brienne VII, AFFC)

Cat and Jaime knew Brienne's age:

Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. (Catelyn II, ACOK)

The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly’s longsword, and laid it at her feet. (Catelyn V, ACOK)

Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? (Jaime V, ASOS)

[Daske]

They will no doubt spend more time and/or expand on the Jaime and Brienne (and Jon and Sansa) storylines next season. There will be much more time available with other characters dead or dying or reuniting.

[Boi]

BrienneTarth first google hit is age 18+4 = 22? 18 at first meet 4 years later on last meet? she must have been about 19-20 with Jamie?

I do not recall much knowledge on name days apart from Arya, Sansa, Joffrey and Tommen

It stands to reason that Renly, Loras, Lancel would have been older by some time

[silentwanderer]

Only Renly would have been if you do the maths? In the series everyone is older for legal reasons 21 for sex scenes in the country where partly filmed in england on viewed channels? Im sure there is some related history of name days on Renly maybe 14-18 like Joffery? No I would have thought older?

For one, Renly was alive by the time of Robert's rebellion and Joffrey must have been born at lest a name day later, so he was definitely older than his nephew.

The point is: there's no hint as to how old Renly was when Stannis killed him, therefore no way to tell whether Brienne was 3 years younger than a 23 year old or a 21 year old Renly at the time.

They've changed the Jaime/Cersei dynamic quite a bit, it's turning all lovey dovey.

I'm not saying that it isn't, all I'm saying is that Cersei had sex with Lancel despite being in a lovey dovey dynamic with Jaime.

[Chickren]

For one, Renly was alive by the time of Robert's rebellion and Joffrey must have been born at lest a name day later, so he was definitely older than his nephew.

The point is: there's no hint as to how old Renly was when Stannis killed him, therefore no way to tell whether Brienne was 3 years younger than a 23 year old or a 21 year old Renly at the time.

I wish this was even the first time I've had to quote myself when someone can't be bothered to read the book quotes I've given them. Please read:

Renly's Age:

He is not Renly, Brienne realized. Renly is dead. Renly died in my arms, a man of one-and-twenty. This is a only a boy.. (Brienne VII, AFFC)

Cat and Jaime knew Brienne's age:

Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. (Catelyn II, ACOK)

The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly’s longsword, and laid it at her feet. (Catelyn V, ACOK)

Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? (Jaime V, ASOS)