R+L=J v. 52

[Prince of the Green]

Then it stands to reason that anyone sleeping in that bed would experience those same visions from time to time right?

I'd say similar visions; dreams that are more ethereal than simply subconscious, yes.

Makes you wonder what we, as the readership, have been missing simply because Lord Commander Mormont and Bowen Marsh decided on oak rather than weirwood for the beds of the Night's Watch.

[FrozenFire3]

Thanks, and I think I just thought of something else. It's a strong theme how the NW, which is but a shadow of it's former self, are Jon's true brothers now. Well, his (half)brother was smashed against a wall beyond recognition.

I am trying to draw a parallel between this and Aegon's reappearance. If he is a fake, then this can probably relate to his brothers in the NW turning out to be fake brothers as they stab him.

Yes, a three way parallel. Not to mention that Jon himself was metaphorically smashed against a Wall beyond recognition (the boy was killed and the man was born).

[A Crow Come Over]

Sorry but couldn't. There is so much that doesn't fit for any of these women that it would be extremely bad writing if GRRM pulled the rug, as you say.

So its bad writing on GRRM's part that you came to the wrong conclusion? I'd say thats good writing.

Obviously R+L=J was planned since the beginning. GRRM wrote the story with this future revelation as a base for it

He won't change it because his whole story would be messed up if he did

I guess if you believe the whole narrative rests on R+L=J, which I don't.

I think Jon can be just as important to the narrative as Ned's son.

[A Crow Come Over]

I'd say similar visions; dreams that are more ethereal than simply subconscious, yes.

Makes you wonder what we, as the readership, have been missing simply because Lord Commander Mormont and Bowen Marsh decided on oak rather than weirwood for the beds of the Night's Watch.

I wonder what crazy dreams Ned was having on those beds.

[FrozenFire3]

So its bad writing on GRRM's part that you came to the wrong conclusion? I'd say thats good writing.

I guess if you believe the whole narrative rests on R+L=J, which I don't.

I think Jon can be just as important to the narrative as Ned's son.

Or maybe it's the other way round. it's R+L=J that rests on the whole narrative ;)

[Nami]

So its bad writing on GRRM's part that you came to the wrong conclusion? I'd say thats good writing.

I guess if you believe the whole narrative rests on R+L=J, which I don't.

I think Jon can be just as important to the narrative as Ned's son.

Seriously, A Song of ICE and FIRE?

How do you understand that?

[A Crow Come Over]

Seriously, A Song of ICE and FIRE?

How do you understand that?

Not sure what you are trying to say here?

I guess you're saying that the name of the series is proof of R+L=J?

Dany = Fire

Jon = Ice

Jon can still be ice if hes not Rheagar's son.

[A Crow Come Over]

Or maybe it's the other way round. it's R+L=J that rests on the whole narrative ;)

You may be right, I like to think that the story is a bit more complex than "Jon is Rhaegars son and will fix everything thats wrong"

[Nami]

Not sure what you are trying to say here?

I guess you're saying that the name of the series is proof of R+L=J?

Dany = Fire

Jon = Ice

Jon can still be ice if hes not Rheagar's son.

Rhaegar said that the song of TPTWP (he thought it was Aegon) is the song of ice and fire, reference to the name of the series

[A Crow Come Over]

Rhaegar said that the song of TPTWP (he thought it was Aegon) is the song of ice and fire, reference to the name of the series

And Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.

[Ygrain]

So its bad writing on GRRM's part that you came to the wrong conclusion? I'd say thats good writing.

Please. If you are a writer and writing some mystery that is to be revealed, you need to foreshadow it, so that in retrospect, the clues make sense and point in the right direction. If you make a revelation without such support, it's a deus ex machina solution and very bad writing. Now, the series has been dissected into the tiniest bits over the years, analysed and re-analysed all over. The clues for R+L are there as they should be, are consistent with logic, lore and whatever else comes to mind. Clues for the other ladies are simply not there, and neither of them provides explanation for the many issues that R+L does.

[Nami]

You may be right, I like to think that the story is a bit more complex than "Jon is Rhaegars son and will fix everything thats wrong"

Believing R+L=J doesn't mean I think he will fix everything

I just think that everything is leading to Jon having an important role in the future of Westeros. Will he be the only one? I don't think so

I think that as we talk so much about this theory, it seems it's obvious to everyone. But someone who doesn't participate in forums probably won't figure out R+L=J and other clues in the book that seem obvious to us because we already read them with R+L=J in mind.

[Nami]

And Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.

So?

Are you saying he made up this whole a song of ice and fire thing?

[A Crow Come Over]

Please. If you are a writer and writing some mystery that is to be revealed, you need to foreshadow it, so that in retrospect, the clues make sense and point in the right direction. If you make a revelation without such support, it's a deus ex machina solution and very bad writing. Now, the series has been dissected into the tiniest bits over the years, analysed and re-analysed all over. The clues for R+L are there as they should be, are consistent with logic, lore and whatever else comes to mind. Clues for the other ladies are simply not there, and neither of them provides explanation for the many issues that R+L does.

Again, it comes down to how much you think that Jon's parents affect the overall narrative.

Right now, the 2 main forces appear to be Bran and Dany, Jon is being setup to be used a tool by one of them in the fight against the Others.

So?

Are you saying he made up this whole a song of ice and fire thing?

No, I'm saying he could be wrong about the Song of Ice and Fire.

[Nami]

I was wondering, do we know that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and some of the KG were with him?

I always thought he sent the KG to the TOJ after he went to KL to prepare for the battle of the Trident

If he was rolling in the hay with Lyanna while the KG were guarding the TOJ, it's hilarious

[Ygrain]

Again, it comes down to how much you think that Jon's parents affect the overall narrative.

Right now, the 2 main forces appear to be Bran and Dany, Jon is being setup to be used a tool by one of them in the fight against the Others.

No, it doesn't. The clues are there and pointing in the same direction no matter what Jon's final fate will be.

[Ygrain]

I was wondering, do we know that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and some of the KG were with him?

I always thought he sent the KG to the TOJ after he went to KL to prepare for the battle of the Trident

If he was rolling in the hay with Lyanna while the KG were guarding the TOJ, it's hilarious

Dayne and Whent were with him since the very beginning. You can imagine them guarding the door of their bedroom :P

[FittleLinger]

You may be right, I like to think that the story is a bit more complex than "Jon is Rhaegars son and will fix everything thats wrong"

Yes, it obviously is. How does that make R+L=J not true?

You've read (I presume) 5 long books from this series. Has Martin left you with the impression that he's writing a story about a guy who will "fix everything" because his biological parents are Lady X and Mr. Y?

I think you are presuming that it would be a deus ex machina, which most of us here do not think is the case. We simply analyze evidence. How important it will or won't be in the end doesn't change the weight of the evidence.

[FrozenFire3]

You may be right, I like to think that the story is a bit more complex than "Jon is Rhaegars son and will fix everything thats wrong"

Read carefully again. What I meant is that the theory has solid narrative foundations. Simple as that. No importance charts, no overlooking complexity. We are talking about a very thorugh and complex and solid textual analysis NOT personal preference or character crushes.

ETA FittleLinger, elective affinities ;)

[A Crow Come Over]

Yes, it obviously is. How does that make R+L=J not true?

You've read (I presume) 5 long books from this series. Has Martin left you with the impression that he's writing a story about a guy who will "fix everything" because his biological parents are Lady X and Mr. Y?

Having 3 discussions with 3 ppl is getting tedious, please read the quote I was responding to. FrozenFire said "Maybe the whole narrative does rest on R+L=J"

And yes I have read the books, multiple times, theres no reason to be condescending just because I still have doubts about R+L=J sometimes.