R+L=J v. 52

[Alia of the knife]

On a slightly tangential note, nobody channels dear daddy Rhaegar better than Kit: http://fuckyeahkitha...ost/52897563486

Sadness, pessimism, loneliness, poetry and all :lol:

I'm know he's a Capricorn now, and I can't wait to hear his harp. :D

[Filleted Man]

Even so, just to answer your question, Ned called in his banners before he impregnated Cat.

Thankyou

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

At this point tho, isnt LF seriously injured recovering in the Fingers? Also, he cant be more than 14 at this time so I don't think he could've concocted and predicted what would've happened.

We don't know where Brandon heard the info but it did involve his his sister so it wouldnt take long for word to get to him (raven from WF? Messenger from Robert?) and going to KL would be the most logical place to look for the Prince, wouldnt it? Far as I know, no one knew Rhaegar took her to TOJ.

He was wounded and recovered at RR for a fortnight before being sent back to the Vale in a litter. This would have meant slow travel through the Riverlands. We know that Brandon was returning to RR when he heard about the "abduction" of his sister. It's not a stretch to think their paths could have intersected. A chance meeting of travelers seems just as likely as a raven or messenger finding someone who was on the move.

The theory is actually precisely what you say- LF was young and had no idea what his actions would lead to (like most 14 year olds...) He was angry and out for revenge for his humiliation. After witnessing or hearing about the apparent abduction, his sly mind would have seized the chance to mete out a bit of revenge and humiliation on his rival and the end results were beyond his wildest dreams. In that action, goes the theory, lies the seeds of the master player of the game and ladder climber we know from 15 or so years in the future.

[Ygrain]

At this point tho, isnt LF seriously injured recovering in the Fingers? Also, he cant be more than 14 at this time so I don't think he could've concocted and predicted what would've happened.

We don't know the exact timeline, he definitely wouldn't be travelling fast, though, and you have a convenient meeting point: the Crossroads Inn.

We don't know where Brandon heard the info but it did involve his his sister so it wouldnt take long for word to get to him (raven from WF? Messenger from Robert?) and going to KL would be the most logical place to look for the Prince, wouldnt it? Far as I know, no one knew Rhaegar took her to TOJ.

The problem is, he doesn't look for the prince, he makes one hell of an assumption that this is where he went and never checks.

I'm not sure what the sentence is supposed to imply? Are you suggesting that Brandon thought Lyanna was already dead?

I'm suggesting that he seems to be all about avenging stained honour rather then saving kidnapped and raped sister, which would suggest knowing about some consent on Lyanna's part and taking it out on the guy who seduced her.

I have no doubt that the LF of 300 AL would've been able to plan this, I just don't think that LF in 282 AL could have.

I mentioned a random encounter, not a planned one. We don't know how and from where the news about Lyanna started to spread and how Brandon learned. If he heard it from LF, twisted and with some pricky comment (it has been suggested up the thread "your sister spreads her legs for Rhaegar, like Cat did for me"), it would definitely bring Brandon into a rage fit. Seeing what followed, it wold have been a great inspiration for a career of manipulation and lie.

[Alia of the knife]

More from "Mladen" from the ASoIaF project and the nature of wolves.

Since Martins theme of animal imagry, particularly the Starks and their Wolf identity is a big part of the behavior of the characters, I think it's important to look at what the behavior of the animal itself tells us.

I choose this sort of information to inform me as a possible clue as to their fates rather than a personal motivation, or a personal desire for the fate of the character, and that's not to say that anyone on this thread is doing that, but I do find this narrative to be very informative and a clue to the Starks relationship.

"The pack structure, behavior of variety of members and the psychological need for belonging to a pack indicate that wolves are very loyal animals. Their loyalty is shown in many examples. For instance, alpha male isn`t just the leader, he is also caregiver to entire pack. Wolves are shown to take care of each other. Wounded members are not let behind. The entire pack licks the wounds of the wounded. This licking, interestingly, is proven to be therapeutic. Wolf`s saliva contains many antimicrobial compounds that are good in cleaning the wounds and preventing the infections. Also, while the mother is taking care of the pups, other pack members bring her the food. All of this proves strong unity of the pack.

In literature, wolves are not either loyal or kind. The Big bad wolf symbolism created somewhere at the dawn of humankind has dominated literature for centuries. Even in mythology, there are only few examples of wolf being the noble animal. The term werewolf, which in history symbolized cursed man that transforms during full moon into vicious animal, and nowadays hunky teenager that loses a battle for the girl against vampire, represents all that is wrong in our perspective towards wolves. If we exclude, modern teen werewolves, GRRM has been one of rare that portrayed the wolves as kind animals capable of doing good deeds. GRRM has passed over deeply incorporated myths about wolves, and created something uniquely beautiful and powerful.

Combining biology with literary freedom, GRRM had given us such great mythology. His characters, which embody both idealism and raw strength of wolves, have all the qualities and flaws wolves ordinarily have. His portrayal of wolves through characters isn`t idealistic or even romantic, it`s real, and in most cases you can feel the real wolf behind each character. " - Mladen: ASoIaF Animals Project.

[FrozenFire3]

I'm know he's a Capricorn now, and I can't wait to hear his harp. :D

Where's the harp playing smiley when you need it? :lol:

I wonder if he somehow channels Rhaegar's attitude towards women too. That sort of shy 'please, don't fangirl over me' attitude that could be one of the reasons for Rhaegar's apparent lack of interest in Cersei (evil manipulative vibes apart LOL). And explain how (KotLT plot aside) wild bold Lyanna got the prince's attention. In spite of her tears during his singing performance, I can hardly picture her as the starry-eyed adoring type (I bet Benjen would agree with me ;)). A breath of fresh air and a worthwhile challenge for the melancholic crown prince...

[Alia of the knife]

Where's the harp playing smiley when you need it? :lol:

I wonder if he somehow channels Rhaegar's attitude towards women too. That sort of shy 'please, don't fangirl over me' attitude that could be one of the reasons for Rhaegar's apparent lack of interest in Cersei (evil manipulative vibes apart LOL). And explain how (KotLT plot aside) wild bold Lyanna got the prince's attention. In spite of her tears during his singing performance, I can hardly picture her as the starry-eyed adoring type (I bet Benjen would agree with me ;)). A breath of fresh air and a worthwhile challenge for the melancholic crown prince...

Oh, I definitely think so, because you see it in his relationship with Arya, though to be fair, Robb indulged her too and didn't mind her unconventional qualities, but of course Jons attraction to Ygritte is an indicator that like Rhaegar, not only was he not threatened by that unconventional nature, he admired it.

I've always had a pet theory that Rhaegar himself may have had some say in turning down Cersei as much as Aerys. If Rhaegar had really wanted the match, I think at that juncture in Aerys life, Aerys might have been persuaded, especially since Rhaegar was so clever.

I think the pivotal moment they looked into each others eyes and she saw sadness, he saw corruption, and of course again Martin's irony in more misinformation is that she goes through life blaming Aerys when it was Rhaegar himself who saw her for what she was.

And yes, being the Crown Prince, he was likely surrounded by the most polished and beautiful girls in the Kingdom, but was generally bored by them, and what he could have. :cool4:

Lyanna:

Again from the ASoIaF Animal project, Wolves: - Mladen

"Lyanna was everything what true alpha female should be. Lethal but emotional, in Lyanna we find wonderful sublimation of great strength which she demonstrated as KoTL, and deep emotions when she cried during Rhaegar`s singing."

I think in many ways, Lyanna crying may have surprised herself as she realizes she's becoming a different person.

She may have even been slightly uncomfortable with those changes not really having a mother to talk to her, and her violent reaction to Benjens teasing her for crying is a sign that everything has changed as she herself may not have even liked that she was crying over a "stupid" song.

But then again, JonCon says that Rhaegar made everyone cry.

(When I was young and raised by my Dad, I was too proud to ever cry in public, and when I did, I became angry, though I didn't have anyone teasing me for it and certainly my Dad didn't raise me to think that crying was "wrong," but being raised by a man brings a different way of handling things).

I can envision when Rhaegar caught her as the KoTLt, that Lyanna was probably quite fierce and defiant as you never corner a wolf, so definitely not "starry-eyed. :devil: .

We see later that Ygritte herself certainly put Jon through the ringer. :laugh:

But the internal conflicts that Lyanna herself may have been experiencing is one of the reasons I don't put sole stock into her crying over Rhaegars song as being for Rhaegar alone, though he may have been a factor.

I imagine Arya will have similar conflicts within herself.

As an aside, I love the fact that Harrington says he's disturbed at the notion of being on some fan girls bedroom wall.

[Ygrain]

One thing made me wonder today: Rhaegar was Prince of Dragonstone but lived in KL, similarly as Prince of Wales actually lives in the Buckingham Palace, right? I don't recall a single mention of his ever being at Dragonstone, though, which I think a bit weird, what with all his obsession with history. Did I miss a thing, somewhere?

Plus, this brings me to another point: people claim that it was perfectly logical for Brandon to go looking for Rhaegar to KL because that's where Rhaegar lived - to me, it's all but logical to expect him to bring a kidnapped girl to his home, to his parents, wife and children, if he has a whole castle to his disposal not so far away. I'd fully expect him to go to KL, too, but take a ship to Dragonstone ASAP instead of going to the Red Keep. I must ask once again, how come that Brandon never thought about this and didn't investigate first about Rhaegar's whereabouts? Really, I am more and more convinced about some misinformation.

[Queen Nymeria Martell]

Where's the harp playing smiley when you need it? :lol:

I wonder if he somehow channels Rhaegar's attitude towards women too. That sort of shy 'please, don't fangirl over me' attitude that could be one of the reasons for Rhaegar's apparent lack of interest in Cersei (evil manipulative vibes apart LOL). And explain how (KotLT plot aside) wild bold Lyanna got the prince's attention. In spite of her tears during his singing performance, I can hardly picture her as the starry-eyed adoring type (I bet Benjen would agree with me ;)). A breath of fresh air and a worthwhile challenge for the melancholic crown prince...

I wish we could one day know the lyrics of the song Rhaegar sang when Lyanna cried. I wonder if it was the song, the singer or the lyrics that made her cry... I mean, if the song had lyrics, which I am assuming it had.

As for LF being a bit responsible for Brandon's misguided act(s) - I totally agree, in fact I wondered about this for a long time before joining the forum, and had a 'theory" about that but did not want to explain it further. Maybe it was the first time LF understood how his acts (lies or half-lies) could change history.

Speaking of KoTLT, I am re-reading aCoK and Arya's description of Harrenhal kept me thinking... all the time she thinks the place is soooo big, she spends a lot of time describing how even Gregor Clegane seemed small inside the halls, etc. Do you think this might be foreshadowing for KoTLT and maybe the armor and other stuff are still hidden there somewhere?

[Alia of the knife]

One thing made me wonder today: Rhaegar was Prince of Dragonstone but lived in KL, similarly as Prince of Wales actually lives in the Buckingham Palace, right? I don't recall a single mention of his ever being at Dragonstone, though, which I think a bit weird, what with all his obsession with history. Did I miss a thing, somewhere?

Plus, this brings me to another point: people claim that it was perfectly logical for Brandon to go looking for Rhaegar to KL because that's where Rhaegar lived - to me, it's all but logical to expect him to bring a kidnapped girl to his home, to his parents, wife and children, if he has a whole castle to his disposal not so far away. I'd fully expect him to go to KL, too, but take a ship to Dragonstone ASAP instead of going to the Red Keep. I must ask once again, how come that Brandon never thought about this and didn't investigate first about Rhaegar's whereabouts? Really, I am more and more convinced about some misinformation.

Perhaps it was common knowledge that Rhaegar lived in KL, and if your family is perceived as omnipotent enough to indulge in incest and polygamy, taking your "mistress" back to KL and locking her up in the Maiden Vault may just be the regular order of business if your a Targaryen, so Brandon went there.

KL sounds a lot like the American song, "Hotel California," a freaky place where you "check in" but you may not "check out." :blushing: I don't think it's changed much under Barantheon/Lannister "management."

You make a good point on the confusion though, because it would almost seem as if Dragonstone should be a place of residence for the second son and Prince after reaching their maturity, with perhaps a rebuilt Summerhall for the third if the Crown Princes seat is KL itself.

I could imagine if Aegon stayed on at KL after his marriage and children, then Jon might have had Dragonstone not to mention the fact that the Targaryens would have had a claim to Winterfell if anything happened to the Stark males.

In the Dunk & Egg series, didn't Baelor Breakspears brothers have their own homes, and Aerion Brightflame's father reside in Summerhall?

[Ygrain]

Perhaps it was common knowledge that Rhaegar lived in KL, and if your family is perceived as omnipotent enough to indulge in incest and polygamy, taking your "mistress" back to KL and locking her up in the Maiden Vault may just be the regular order of business if your a Targaryen, so Brandon went there.

KL sounds a lot like the American song, "Hotel California," a freaky place where you "check in" but you may not "check out." :blushing: I don't think it's changed much under Barantheon/Lannister "management."

You make a good point on the confusion though, because it would almost seem as if Dragonstone should be a place of residence for the second son and Prince after reaching their maturity, with perhaps a rebuilt Summerhall for the third if the Crown Princes seat is KL itself.

I could imagine if Aegon stayed on at KL after his marriage and children, then Jon might have had Dragonstone not to mention the fact that the Targaryens would have had a claim to Winterfell if anything happened to the Stark males.

In the Dunk & Egg series, didn't Baelor Breakspears brothers have their own homes, and Aerion Brightflame's father reside in Summerhall?

Yes, it was definitely common knowledge, IMHO, and the line of thought is not invalid, but, I mean, Dragonstone is just over the bay from KL, wouldn't it be at least worth checking? There were, how many? seven? people in Brandon's entourage, how come none of them thought about it as an option? Why didn't a single one of them think about checking whether Rhaegar was really in the Red Keep and didn't leave for Dragonstone?

[Maxpey]

One thing made me wonder today: Rhaegar was Prince of Dragonstone but lived in KL, similarly as Prince of Wales actually lives in the Buckingham Palace, right? I don't recall a single mention of his ever being at Dragonstone, though, which I think a bit weird, what with all his obsession with history. Did I miss a thing, somewhere?

Plus, this brings me to another point: people claim that it was perfectly logical for Brandon to go looking for Rhaegar to KL because that's where Rhaegar lived - to me, it's all but logical to expect him to bring a kidnapped girl to his home, to his parents, wife and children, if he has a whole castle to his disposal not so far away. I'd fully expect him to go to KL, too, but take a ship to Dragonstone ASAP instead of going to the Red Keep. I must ask once again, how come that Brandon never thought about this and didn't investigate first about Rhaegar's whereabouts? Really, I am more and more convinced about some misinformation.

Perhaps Brandon never studied "The Art of War", specifically the part about knowing your opponent. ;)

One possible answer to this question is that Brandon simply assumed that if Rhaegar was arrogant enough to kidnap his betrothed sister, then he was arrogant enough to return to KL with her.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes, it was definitely common knowledge, IMHO, and the line of thought is not invalid, but, I mean, Dragonstone is just over the bay from KL, wouldn't it be at least worth checking? There were, how many? seven? people in Brandon's entourage, how come none of them thought about it as an option? Why didn't a single one of them think about checking whether Rhaegar was really in the Red Keep and didn't leave for Dragonstone?

I don't think they really had a plan, but allowed events to control them instead of taking control.

It's the same frustration with Ned, and some of his decisions like killing Lady and confronting Cersei on her turf instead of getting out of town like Stannis did.

[Jon Icefyre]

It's the same frustration with Ned, and some of his decisions like killing Lady and confronting Cersei on her turf instead of getting out of town like Stannis did.

Agreed, but in his defense Ned's situation was much different than Stannis's. Ned could have easily controlled Cersei on "her turf" even after he confronted her and Robert died, if he would have just gone along with Renly's plan. Ned did what he did the way he did it to make sure no harm would come to Cersei's children. The memory of the sack of KL always haunted Ned so he wanted to make sure nothing like that would ever happen again. Ned did make arrangements to have his daughters leave town even before he found out the truth. But after he found out the truth I don't think Ned specifically leaving town was ever an option in his mind, because I think Ned was worried that someone like Robert or even Renly after Robert's death would eliminate Cersei's children and that just wasn't acceptable for Ned. It's kind of ironic and just goes to show how kind and caring of a man Ned really was. How many ppl put in that exact same situation could say that they would be worried about their enemies children almost as much as their own......

I really hope GRRM gives us a chapter in the future where Cersei thinks back and reflects on the kindness Ned showed her and her children...

[Alia of the knife]

Agreed, but in his defense Ned's situation was much different than Stannis's. Ned could have easily controlled Cersei on "her turf" even after he confronted her and Robert died, if he would have just gone along with Renly's plan. Ned did what he did the way he did it to make sure no harm would come to Cersei's children. The memory of the sack of KL always haunted Ned so he wanted to make sure nothing like that would ever happen again. Ned did make arrangements to have his daughters leave town even before he found out the truth. But after he found out the truth I don't think Ned specifically leaving town was ever an option in his mind, because I think Ned was worried that someone like Robert or even Renly after Robert's death would eliminate Cersei's children and that just wasn't acceptable for Ned. It's kind of ironic and just goes to show how kind and caring of a man Ned really was. How many ppl put in that exact same situation could say that they would be worried about their enemies children almost as much as their own......

I really hope GRRM gives us a chapter in the future where Cersei thinks back and reflects on the kindness Ned showed her and her children...

I know, I guess I just wish he would have stayed in Winterfell with his "pack" and left the Berantheons to themselves.

That would be bittersweet indeed if Cercei had that realization, but if she didn't. I imagine Jaime might.

[Nami]

You guys think Jon's personality is like Rhaegar's?

it could be Ned's personality traits too, since he raised Jon

[The guy from the Vale]

Eh, Ned's not half as melancholic as Jon, but it's a trait that's very much associated with Rhaegar, for example.

[Nami]

I can envision when Rhaegar caught her as the KoTLt, that Lyanna was probably quite fierce and defiant as you never corner a wolf, so definitely not "starry-eyed. :devil: .

We see later that Ygritte herself certainly put Jon through the ringer.

To be honest I imagine their first encounter was really unsusual

I don't think Lyanna was starry-eyed but rather fierce and her wild self was out since she was active jousting and all

Rhaegar must have been amused and not knowing how to react. He must have been surprised by her

I think she was after him as much as he was interested in her

[Nami]

Eh, Ned's not half as melancholic as Jon, but it's a trait that's very much associated with Rhaegar, for example.

Some might say it's because of his upbringing and hatred for being a bastard child

[Nami]

Putting aside the anti-Brandon/Stark bia's, I think one has to look at the facts that we have and address really the precious little we do know.

In terms of Brandon's nature, what we know comes from a woman who wanted more than anything to be Lady Stark, but ended up with his friend, and who also seemed to hold some bitterness towards Rickard for trusting his Maester and wanting to venture beyond the political realm of the North.

But, even if what she said is true, again, Brandon is everything that an Alpha male should be. He's fierce, takes what he wants, and is cunning with likely a snarl for a smile. He couldn't be what he was without cunning, and judging him for a fool because his "pack" was his Achilles heel and because of Hoster Tully's statement is a little broad, especially when Hoster himself didn't even know what was going on under his own roof with LF and his daughters.

If we're going to trust Cersei's word on character, then we have to trust that on some level she was confirming that Brandon was born to lead whereas Ned was just a soldier, and given that others chose to follow Brandon I suppose makes them fools as well.

And while I love Ned, in retrospect, many of the decisions he made in KL were foolish. He was out of his league, and I imagine so was Brandon considering what he was going to be up against in KL, and likely what Hoster was really referring to, so while they were naïve in thinking that everyone followed the same code of honor, they weren't necessarily fools.

If it had been someone else's sister, he likely would have been more methodical and measured in coming up with a plan of action, but given that it was his "pack" sister, he did indeed lose his composure as anyone would do.

I can tell you that anyone who knows me personally will tell you I'm pragmatic, and cautious to frustration, dotting every "I" and crossing every "T," but if it came to my family, yes I would lose it, and lose it even with a King, so I suppose I'd be a fool as well.

I'd also say that not killing LF, but sparing him is on par with Neds trusting LF when LF himself told him not to- a deadly mistake.

And in terms of Brandon calling on Rhaegar to come out and die instead of calling for Lyanna, says to me that it was Rhaegar whom he held responsible, or else he would have called for Lyanna to come out and explain herself.

I certainly don't think Brandon is an angel, or innocent, but again, I need a lot more information before I condemn him on the little we have to go on.

Littlefinger:

IMHO, while LF is an agent of chaos, he has a driving anger and hatred, as well as extreme hubris, I think we endow him with too much power.

While he is effective with the likes of Cat, Ned, and Sansa, political innocents driven and sheltered by the protective naitvete of honor, how effective is he really with someone like Varys?

Varys allows LF to think he is on par with him only because it helps Varys to watch him. The difference between Varys and LF is that LF is in if for the game, and Varys truly believes he's serving the Realm even with all his ruthless machinations to put the Blackfyres into place.

Also IMHO, while he may have played some role, I think LF was too young and too weak from his injury to impact events so completely. I think it may have been more what LF knew, but didn't tell anyone and let events play out as they did.

Think Sweet Robin, (and we know who his real father is), and envision a "Sweet Robin" prior to the Rebellion with a little more stature, and some sense.

Lyannas abduction and Brandon:

My speculation is that it went something like this.

Lyanna was en route to Brandons wedding, Rhaegar enlisted the aide of Dayne and Whent because he either anticipated a fight, or wanted to eliminate the chances for a fight, however, the latter didn't happen hence Lyannas being taken by swordpoint.

Either they surrendered, or there was a fight, and if there was fight, a few people were hurt, or even killed and the survivors race to find Brandon at Riverrun, tell him a confused and conflated version of events that causes Brandon to run out with his hair on end.

And if there were Northmen killed or hurt in the melee, that probably inspired the other sons to follow Brandon, because then it wasn't just about Bradnons family alone.

I don't think it was anymore complicated than that

If it's true that Rhaegar did what he did based upon impulse, then Lyanna herself wouldn't have known he was coming for her. If it was planned they would traveled faster without the two KG who could join them later at the TOJ. No matter how well they were all disguised, they would have likely caused attention since in those days it was VERY easy to tell the gentry from the peasants.

And even after all this, Rhaegar still may not have meant to harm anyone, but things spiraled out of control.

Since Lyanna likely didn't know he was coming, and Rhaegar and Co. were likely initially disguised, (if they were smart), Lyanna herself may have even fought, not knowing who it was that was "attacking" them.

Or, she may have taken a walk away from the group, and Rhaegar comes upon her, again in disguise, and her men come upon the scene and all hell breaks loose because they didn't understand what they were seeing other than their Lady with strange men.

It's like when a fight breaks out today, but nobody knows how, why, or when it started.

All of this alone could have caused Brandon to do what he did, as well as perpetuate the different versions of the tales that everyone is telling, which again I think is Martins point.

EDIT:

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had a daughter.

"Visenya" with wolfs eyes and silver hair.

http://static.skyrim...-1356736950.png

Interesting.

Was it stated Lyanna was going to Riverrun?

And why Rhaegar was in a haste to do all that? Would Lyanna be on her way to Storm's End to marry Robert after Brandon's wedding perharps?