R+L=J v. 52

[The guy from the Vale]

Some might say it's because of his upbringing and hatred for being a bastard child

Eh, his upbringing was almost the same as that of Robb, and really privileged, even if Jon didn't acknowledge that. It's also very curious, as it is undoubtedly a trait shared by Rhaegar and Jon.

If you look at Barristan's description of Rhaegar and compare it to Jon's character, it's almost a carbon copy, even more so than Jon/Ned.

[UVA]

Eh, his upbringing was almost the same as that of Robb, and really privileged, even if Jon didn't acknowledge that. It's also very curious, as it is undoubtedly a trait shared by Rhaegar and Jon.

Yep, and to add to what guyfromthevale said, I think on some level Jon takes comfort in his bastard status when it suits him -- I think he thinks it gives him a certain degree of authenticity. There is a lower risk, and at the same time strength to being the underdog (vis-a-vis Robb) as well. That said, being the Bastard of Winterfell causes considerable psychic pain, and it's this internal conflict that creates the dramatic tension in his character. Then this is of course made even more ironic by the fact that he is one of, if not, the highest born of the realm.

[Alia of the knife]

Interesting.

Was it stated Lyanna was going to Riverrun?

And why Rhaegar was in a haste to do all that? Would Lyanna be on her way to Storm's End to marry Robert after Brandon's wedding perharps?

Lyannas Whereabouts:

Her whereabouts have never been confirmed, but most have speculated that it wouldn't make much sense for her to travel all the way back to Winterfell only to turn around and come back for the wedding, so there is a good theory she may have stayed behind as a guest to the Whents of Harrenhal until Brandon's wedding.

Though another thought is if Ned was still in the Vale, then Lyanna may have been coming from Winterfell, leaving earlier and being on the road longer since Ned was apparently still at the Vale and hadn't started traveling yet. :dunno:

My take on it is that wherever she was taken, it was in a public setting, and most likely on the way to Brandon's wedding since the wedding itself is the common denominator for the two of them to be generally in the same place in that time frame.

Rhaegars Haste:

Again, it's not something that has been confirmed, but there are of course many theories.

One, a simple one, is perhaps Rickard did move up the marriage date between Robert and Lyanna given the events as Harrenhal, and it may have been some time immediately after Brandons wedding, so leaving Riverrun, the party would go to Storms End.

Rhaegar would have only a short window of time before she married to take her.

Another of course is finding that Elia is now barren after the birth of Aegon, but that still doesn't mean he needed to produce another child forthwith, only that he needed another wife to give him children.

Since he loved Lyanna and she was the one he wanted, he had only a short amount of time to work with.

[A Crow Come Over]

Sorry to switch gears, but is the general consensus around here that Aemon knew R+L=J from sending ravens back and forth with Rhaegar?

[The guy from the Vale]

Sorry to switch gears, but is the general consensus around here that Aemon knew R+L=J from sending ravens back and forth with Rhaegar?

Aemon definitely didn't know R+L=J. He arrives at the conclusion that Dany is tPtwP by method of elimination: tPtwP was supposed to come from Aerys' and Rhaella's line, and he thinks Dany is the last descendant of said line. If he knew the LC that already impressed him and reminded him of Aegon V actually was Rhaegar's son, he'd definitely considered him tPtwP before Dany.

[UVA]

Sorry to switch gears, but is the general consensus around here that Aemon knew R+L=J from sending ravens back and forth with Rhaegar?

I feel like I'm tagging guyfromthevale right now, but yea Aemon's discussion with Sam irt to Rhaegar and Dany indicate that he did not know of RLJ. Add to this the idea put forth (by Apple perhaps?) that Martin wrote Aemon's character as blind so as to not 'see' Jon as a Targaryen, I think the consensus is that Aemon did not know.

[bacchys]

It's remarked in the books that Jon strongly resembles Eddard (and Arya, who reminds Eddard of Lyanna). Robb, Sansa, and Rickon all have Tully looks in abundance. It's Jon and Arya who take after the Starks.

So even if Aemon wasn't blind, I think it's quite possible Jon isn't going to remind him of someone he may never have met in person. Aemon went to the wall before Rhaegar was born. There's no mention in the books that Rhaegar ever went to the wall. There's not even a mention of him traveling to Winterfell. That doesn't mean neither happened, of course. But you'd think the Crown Prince would stop in at Winterfell if he was traveling to the Wall, and that that memory would have gotten a mention from someone during the course of the story.

But it is apparent that Aemon corresponded with Rhaegar as he had with his brother, Rhaegar's grandfather. It's quite plausible that it's from that correspondence Rhaegar comes to the realization that he needs to be a warrior instead of the bookish scholar and harpist he'd (mostly) been to that point.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It's remarked in the books that Jon strongly resembles Eddard (and Arya, who reminds Eddard of Lyanna). Robb, Sansa, and Rickon all have Tully looks in abundance. It's Jon and Arya who take after the Starks.

So even if Aemon wasn't blind, I think it's quite possible Jon isn't going to remind him of someone he may never have met in person. Aemon went to the wall before Rhaegar was born. There's no mention in the books that Rhaegar ever went to the wall. There's not even a mention of him traveling to Winterfell. That doesn't mean neither happened, of course. But you'd think the Crown Prince would stop in at Winterfell if he was traveling to the Wall, and that that memory would have gotten a mention from someone during the course of the story.

But it is apparent that Aemon corresponded with Rhaegar as he had with his brother, Rhaegar's grandfather. It's quite plausible that it's from that correspondence Rhaegar comes to the realization that he needs to be a warrior instead of the bookish scholar and harpist he'd (mostly) been to that point.

I don't think the expectation is that Aemon ever actually met Rhaegar, but rather that he might recognize some ineffable Targ characteristic or mannerism that Jon might evince, in spite of looking outwardly like a Stark.

For example, it is commonly remarked that my son looks like me. However, he also has some physical characteristics of his father's family, including a great grandfather who died 25 years before he was born. Anyone who knew that grandfather would look at him and remark on it. At the same time he has mannerisms that plainly come from members of my family to whom he has no physical resemblance. These things run in families. In theory people who knew my or my husband's grandparents could recognize similarities in my son even if they never knew either of his parents.

Eta- I do think it's a good point that his correspondence with Aemon was likely a key part of Rhaegar's personal quest.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think the expectation is that Aemon ever actually met Rhaegar, but rather that he might recognize some ineffable Targ characteristic or mannerism that Jon might evince, in spite of looking outwardly like a Stark.

For example, it is commonly remarked that my son looks like me. However, he also has some physical characteristics of his father's family, including a great grandfather who died 25 years before he was born. Anyone who knew that grandfather would look at him and remark on it. At the same time he has mannerisms that plainly come from members of my family to whom he has no physical resemblance. These things run in families. In theory people who knew my or my husband's grandparents could recognize similarities in my son even if they never knew either of his parents.

Eta- I do think it's a good point that his correspondence with Aemon was likely a key part of Rhaegar's personal quest.

Just so, My Great Grandfather was dead before I was born, but my Dad use to say I "acted" like him and thought we'd enjoy each others company.

He was a Teacher and wrote some of the speeches for our States Governor. I'm not in Academia, but I'm an English Major who also dabbled in Drama and was on the debate team.

I'm on the fence about what Aemon knew about or didn't know about Jon, as he seemed to point Jon to the Jade Copendium and something in it that Aemon thought would "interest" Jon.

Was it that, or something about himself Aemon wanted him to find?

I always found it odd that when Aemon was relating his own family's fall to Jon that he never mentioned Rhaegar and Lyanna UNLESS he did know who Jon was, but knew he wasn't ready yet to hear that just as a parallel Dany isn't ready to know everything about her family.

[Jon Icefyre]

Some might say it's because of his upbringing and hatred for being a bastard child

Ya this argument has been brought up a couple times in the past but I don't think it's a valid argument, because I don't know many bastards that if put in the same situation as Jon on the wall, would have been nearly as melancholic about Stannis offering to legitimize them and make the Lord of Winterfell the way Jon was.....Jon's melancholic vibe is definitely not just a bastard thing.

[Prince of the Green]

Apologies to those who are already sated with Theon's dream of Lyanna, but I did a quick find through the pages here and no one touched on it: Theon was sleeping in Ned Stark's bed, a bed made out of weirwood. We have already seen the effect sleeping on anything weirwood would have on a person, with Jaime and his stump, so it is not out of the realm of plausibility that Theon experienced some kind of ethereal trance while he slept.

Alright, now that I've said that, I will be going back to read the rest of the posts. I can't wait to find more clues that give credence to the fact that Renly and Loras begat Jon...Really great stuff so far.

[Ygrain]

Interesting.

Was it stated Lyanna was going to Riverrun?

And why Rhaegar was in a haste to do all that? Would Lyanna be on her way to Storm's End to marry Robert after Brandon's wedding perharps?

Yes, I think this was the reason, or at least a large part of it. Given how GRRM tells their story in parallels (e.g., Jorah being unstoppable at the tourney because he wanted to crown Lynesse is a parallel to the Harrenhall tourney), I think that Dany wishing that Daario came to abduct her before her wedding to Hizdahr like Rhaegar abducted Lyanna hints that there would be the same reason - save her from an unwanted marriage.

[Prince of the Green]

More than other child of the most recent Stark generation, with the possible exception of Bran, Jon's memories are constantly pulled homeward, to the crypts. He dreams himself walking through the crypts, but his forebears consistently try and turn him away, to make him leave. It is easy, at this point, then, to make a correlation between Jon subconsciously visiting a place that holds entombed Starks and Raegar visiting Summerhall, a place that saw the demise of a good portion of his family.

While I like the idea of Lyanna's tomb containing a dragon egg as a testament to Jon's true parentage, and even more so, Butterbumps! theory that Torrhen Stark's crown is interred with Lyanna, I think it would be even more poetic if the tomb contained Rhaegar's harp. A dragon's egg would certainly spell out 'Fire and Blood,' and Torrhen's crown would assuredly posit 'Winter is Coming,' but Rhaegar's harp would symbolize a certain fierce, albeit untimely, love between his mother and father, without the added strain of having to choose between Stark and Targaryen, and the politics involved therein.

[JonNonRegis]

theory that Torrhen Stark's crown is interred with Lyanna

Strange women lying in crypts distributing crowns is no basis for a system of government.

[UVA]

I'm on the fence about what Aemon knew about or didn't know about Jon, as he seemed to point Jon to the Jade Copendium and something in it that Aemon thought would "interest" Jon.

Alia, yea this is suspicious for sure. But ultimately I've chalked it up to Aemon's desire to help Jon in what he perceived to be Jon's key role in the battle against the Others and the Long Night redux. What is really interesting to consider is that this text may be the one that Rhaegar read as child that convinced him he needed to become proficient at arms.

Strange women lying in crypts distributing crowns is no basis for a system of government.

Well no. Bb's theory -- that the crown is in Lyanna's tomb -- doesn't naturally lead to Jon, upon its discovery, hoisting it on his head proclaiming that he's "King in the North!" This idea about the crown sprung from the designation that it was a Chekov's gun-type reference ('what happened to Torrhen's crown no man could say'). In a discussion about what, if anything, is in the Winterfell crypts butterbumps! made a great case for connecting the crown with RLJ.

Personally, I think Torrhen's crown would be a much more potent symbol for Jon. It's an example of a Targaryen (Rhaegar) giving back to a Stark (Lyanna) the symbol of their power and history as Kings in the North. Finding this essential Northern relic -- and the manner it which is was given and preserved -- could allow Jon to accept his Targ heritage while, at the same time, not having to give up his identity as a Stark/Northerner.

[Ittiz]

Torrhen's crown being interred with Lyanna seems highly unlikely to me. That would mean that Ned came into possession of the crown since he was there when Lyanna died. No way he would have taken the Starks long lost symbol of authority and buried it with his sister.

[The guy from the Vale]

Torrhen's crown being interred with Lyanna seems highly unlikely to me. That would mean that Ned came into possession of the crown since he was there when Lyanna died. No way he would have taken the Starks long lost symbol of authority and buried it with his sister.

I agree. If questioned, Ned could always ahve said that he recovered that crown in KL, but I can't see him burying the symbol of Stark rule forever.

I think a Targaryen wedding cloak is the most likely thing hidden in Lyanna's tomb, but there are really endless possibilities.

[Ygrain]

Alia, yea this is suspicious for sure. But ultimately I've chalked it up to Aemon's desire to help Jon in what he perceived to be Jon's key role in the battle against the Others and the Long Night redux. What is really interesting to consider is that this text may be the one that Rhaegar read as child that convinced him he needed to become proficient at arms.

I think that Aemon's recommendation of the Jade Compendium is connected to his "observation" of Stannis' Sword via Sam - he specifically asks if Sam can feel heat emanating from it, and when Sam doesn't feel any, Aemon realizes that this cannot be the Lightbringer and Stannis is not AA.

I think a Targaryen wedding cloak is the most likely thing hidden in Lyanna's tomb, but there are really endless possibilities.

I can't resist to throw in my own favourite here again - Lyanna's crown of QoLaB. For any person familiar with the events of HH, it would be a major WTF moment, realizing that she is buried with the crown from her supposed rapist.

[FrozenFire3]

I feel like I'm tagging guyfromthevale right now, but yea Aemon's discussion with Sam irt to Rhaegar and Dany indicate that he did not know of RLJ. Add to this the idea put forth (by Apple perhaps?) that Martin wrote Aemon's character as blind so as to not 'see' Jon as a Targaryen, I think the consensus is that Aemon did not know.

In the following passage the irony of Aemon's ignorance is almost blatant:

But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see."

Textually she is talking of Stannis but I can't ignore the metatextual implication. At the end of the day, it's true: the prince that was promised is right in front of him. But he lacks the eyes to see him.

I don't think the expectation is that Aemon ever actually met Rhaegar, but rather that he might recognize some ineffable Targ characteristic or mannerism that Jon might evince, in spite of looking outwardly like a Stark.

For example, it is commonly remarked that my son looks like me. However, he also has some physical characteristics of his father's family, including a great grandfather who died 25 years before he was born. Anyone who knew that grandfather would look at him and remark on it. At the same time he has mannerisms that plainly come from members of my family to whom he has no physical resemblance. These things run in families. In theory people who knew my or my husband's grandparents could recognize similarities in my son even if they never knew either of his parents.

:agree: I think GRRM gives us quite the clue. As Alia and others have frequently argued, he likes teasing us telling a story within a story. Sometimes even a description within a description ;)

AFfC, Aero's reflection on Tyene's traits:

Her hair was gold as well, and her eyes were deep blue pools... and yet somehow they reminded the captain of her father's eyes, though Oberyn's had been as black as night. All of Prince Oberyn's daughters have his viper eyes, Hota realized suddenly. The color does not matter.

The author couldn't have spelled it out any clearer: genetics, especially in Westeros, can be a tricky science LOL General resemblance is not everthing. Besides colouring and first glance facial features, we should also take into account shape, build, mannerism. Even the intensity of a gesture/look. I could be wrong, but there is not one single description of Jon's eye shape throughout the 5 books...

[FrozenFire3]

I can't resist to throw in my own favourite here again - Lyanna's crown of QoLaB. For any person familiar with the events of HH, it would be a major WTF moment, realizing that she is buried with the crown from her supposed rapist.

That :love: and a wedding cloak...