R+L=J v. 52

[Ghost's Shadow]

I just cant see the end scene with Jon alive (and i have a gloom feeling that it might not be all that sugar sweet or happy at all...)

After what Jon just went through to perhaps become the PtwP, it's Tyrion and Dany's turn to die. :P

[Jon Icefyre]

After what Jon just went through to perhaps become the PtwP, it's Tyrion and Dany's turn to die. :P

Exactly some ppl seem to think that if Jon's storyline ends up on a good note then that somehow diminishes from the rest of the story or somehow guarantees that the whole story will have a cliche happy ending, which is beyond absurd. Are ppl forgetting that Jon isn't the only huge character still left in the story? GRRM said there would be a 'bittersweet' ending, so if Jon's storyline ends sweet then does that mean the whole story will end that way? Of course not, because there are still characters like Dany, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, Jamie, Brienne, Theon, and many more that GRRM could give a very bitter ending that greatly effects the overall story. So the ppl that seem to be virtually obsessed with Jon having a doom and gloomed ending because they think that's the only way the overall story can end in a non cliche way, really need to wake up and stop thinking as if Jon is the only character that matters in effecting the overall mood of the story......

[Jon Icefyre]

"You might, if you knew you'd be giving up your claim to the IT"

What are those Information Technologies everyone speak about? :D

:lmao:

[direwienerdog]

What about "the moment when all the smiles died," at the Harrenhal Tourney? I missed it the first read, but I see you addressed this incident in the next sentence, so I'll just say that's how Theon would know.

The only "issue" is that it's incorrect, as far as we know. It may be that her statue did have a crown of roses on it, but it never says so, aside from Ned's dream in ch. 47. Which, again, is not the same thing as her actual statue wearing such a crown.

Here's the part from Theon's dream:

I'm sorry if this negatively impacts analysis you've done, but I'm just pointing out what I believe to be an error. As far as I can tell, there's absolutely no textual evidence that Lyanna's statue includes the rose crown.

When I came across this question myself recently I gave myself a common sense quiz; i.e., would Ned really instruct the stone mason to include a crown of winter roses, like the one Rhaegar gave her, on her statue? Seems unlikely, right? If it did, I have a difficult time believing that Robert wouldn't have mentioned it when he visited the crypts. Anything Rhaegar related makes him rage.

Didn't Winterfell have a all glass greenhouse heated by the same means as the walls of the castle? Blue winter roses along side veggies etc. gathered by Ned and placed on the statue in the crypt.

"Promise me Ned".

[direwienerdog]

Sure!

But not for the first time. Someone must be warging around all along.

When thay found the wights, someone said to burn them, and they didn't know who. It might be Weirdwood Net :dunno:

Eta Also when Jon found Ghost, or when Syrio Forel whispers in Arya's ear... This open many juicy posibilities, but not now.

Old Nan is alway telling the kids scary stories,she says the only way to fight the white walkers is fire which is correct but she also says they fear iron not so.

[direwienerdog]

I tend to agree that Jon's destiny, while transformative, (hint, hint), will not be the Iron Throne.

However, in analyzing the many characters, I find myself going back and forth on the matter of their characters.

Perhaps the scene between Robb and Jon when they were young and playing at "Lords and Bastards," is a hint towards Jons narrative that he does covet, and is ambitious.

I think sometimes the fans impose their own narrative on the nature of the character, but given that Neds whole focus of teaching was on honor and duty, presented with his true heritage, Jon may run headlong towards his Targaryen side, feeling as thought not only does he have to avenge his Stark family, but his Targaryne family as well.

Another clue to the "grey" arc his character takes.

Of course the irony is that part of the promise that Lyanna exacted from Ned may also have been to keep him safe from political intrigues, and becoming a figure-head for more rebellion, with Jon running headlong into the very element that Lyanna wanted to save him from.

I subscribe to the theory of the promise is to keep the fact of Jon's father a secret from King Robert.after all he hates the fact that even though he kills Rhaegar , Rhaegar still wins in the end. Ned must be saying to himself... if you only knew Robert you would kill my whole family too.

[Alia of the knife]

I subscribe to the theory of the promise is to keep the fact of Jon's father a secret from King Robert.after all he hates the fact that even though he kills Rhaegar , Rhaegar still wins in the end. Ned must be saying to himself... if you only knew Robert you would kill my whole family too.

I agree that is the driving factor behind "the promise," but I suspect the promise that Lyanna was most concerned with was protecting her "pup," and his future. :frown5:

[WildBlood]

Old Nan is alway telling the kids scary stories,she says the only way to fight the white walkers is fire which is correct but she also says they fear iron not so.

I don't think we have seen an instance of iron vs Others yet... Are you maybe thinking of steel?

[Ghost's Shadow]

I've brought that up before, but the swords the NW uses is iron, and they seem to have no problem with it.

Maybe they worked on their vulnerabilities and dislikes during the past 8,000 years ( :P ) and got over it.

Who knows, if the previous Lightbringer is Dawn and they use it against them again the ice swords may win, and if Valyrian Steel was indeed unknown back then, they could be vulnerable to that, having never encountered it before.

In the chapter where Jon gets Longclaw, it is mentioned that you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot as the one that burned the silver off the pommel to damage Valyrian Steel. It would be a decent replacement, I think.

[Alia of the knife]

Welcome to the fellowship of the R...+L=J :) Both your theories (metaphorical and non) have some basis and have been ciclically debated on this forum. Kudos for reaching your conclusion on your own. The importance of the crypts is confirmed by Jon's recurring dreams. The angst of not belonging usually accompanies them together with an undefined sense of search...

I know your out and about, but thought you might appreciate the imagry, especially at the end.

Take Care! :)

[Jory Cassel]

I've brought that up before, but the swords the NW uses is iron, and they seem to have no problem with it.

Maybe they worked on their vulnerabilities and dislikes during the past 8,000 years ( :P ) and got over it.

Who knows, if the previous Lightbringer is Dawn and they use it against them again the ice swords may win, and if Valyrian Steel was indeed unknown back then, they could be vulnerable to that, having never encountered it before.

In the chapter where Jon gets Longclaw, it is mentioned that you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot as the one that burned the silver off the pommel to damage Valyrian Steel. It would be a decent replacement, I think.

Evolution :D

jokes aside, are you sure that the NW only uses iron swords? It's plausible that they don't have the means to arm all the black brothers with steel, yet I can't recall a specific passage where it is stated that they don't use steel swords/arrowheads.

edit: looked it up, according to nan, it's the others that fear iron, not the wights.

[Alia of the knife]

Old Nan is alway telling the kids scary stories,she says the only way to fight the white walkers is fire which is correct but she also says they fear iron not so.

I don't know if the Others fear Iron, but I think it's what is holding the dead Kings of Winter in check.

[WildBlood]

I don't know if the Others fear Iron, but I think it's what is holding the dead Kings of Winter in check.

It also says they fear iron on the wiki, so I don't know. But aside from the KOW I can't find any text of iron anything other than lanterns... :dunno:

[Alia of the knife]

It also says they fear iron on the wiki, so I don't know. But aside from the KOW I can't find any text of iron anything other than lanterns... :dunno:

I'd say since Martin borrows heavily from History and it's superstitions, it is significant that the iron swords laying across the laps of the statues of the KOW have gone missing.

So, there may be two fronts going on:

One is to fight the Others and Iron, but more likely Valryan Steele, does that, as well as strengthening Stark magic. Releasing the old Stark Kings, as Ned alluded to keeping them bound, plays a part in Winterfells foundations I think. :)

Iron in Folklore:

"Cold iron is a poetic and archaic term for iron, referring to the fact that it feels cold to the touch. In modern usage the term has been most associated with folkloric beliefs that iron could ward off ghosts, fairies, witches, and/or other malevolent supernatural creatures.

Francis Grose's 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue defines cold iron as "A sword, or any other weapon for cutting or stabbing." This usage often appears as "cold steel" in modern parlance.

"Cold iron" is sometimes asserted to repel, contain, or harm ghosts, fairies, witches, and/or other malevolent supernatural creatures. This belief continued into later superstitions in a number of forms:

* Nailing an iron horseshoe to a door was said to repel evil spirits or later, to bring good luck.

* Surrounding a cemetery with an iron fence was thought to contain the souls of the dead.

* Burying an iron knife under the entrance to one's home was alleged to keep witches from entering."

[Jon Icefyre]

I've brought that up before, but the swords the NW uses is iron, and they seem to have no problem with it.

Maybe they worked on their vulnerabilities and dislikes during the past 8,000 years ( :P ) and got over it.

Who knows, if the previous Lightbringer is Dawn and they use it against them again the ice swords may win, and if Valyrian Steel was indeed unknown back then, they could be vulnerable to that, having never encountered it before.

In the chapter where Jon gets Longclaw, it is mentioned that you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot as the one that burned the silver off the pommel to damage Valyrian Steel. It would be a decent replacement, I think.

This is really good stuff but IMO, Jon is eventually going to give Longclaw back to house Mormont and I think the sword he'll use against the Others will be Dark Sister.

[Ghost's Shadow]

You could be right, but I don't know about that. He *has* Longclaw now, but there's not even a hint on where Dark Sister is, unless Rhaegar had it and it's also hidden in that very full tomb. But if he had it he would have taken it into battle, surely.

I wouldn't be sure of Bloodraven having been allowed to take it to the Wall with him, since they probably didn't imprison him together with his sword, or let him fetch it from his hiding spot if he hid it before he went to the cells.

Longclaw fits Jon nicely. Not just because it's a bastard sword, but the name itself: Ghost has claws, that eagle that scratched his face up had claws, dragons have them too... It's perfect. And personalised into a wolf.

I know the gift was very odd, but Maege did send it back to Mormont at the Wall. She didn't really send him a letter to ask him what to do with it (hinting at wanting to keep it), but from what we know she just sent it to him and that's that.

It's probably just a plot device to give him Valyrian Steel, but has he really done much with it yet that couldn't be done with a regular sword? If not, then it still needs to serve its purpose.

[MtnLion]

Whenever someone brings up what sword Jon will use against the others, I always remember the (dragon) dream that Jon had. He was on top of the Wall, sending the undead back down to die again, and burning in his hand is none other than Longclaw.

[Jory Cassel]

Longclaw fits Jon nicely. Not just because it's a bastard sword, but the name itself: Ghost has claws, that eagle that scratched his face up had claws, dragons have them too... It's perfect. And personalised into a wolf.

Maybe he sets it aside as he realizes that he isn't actually a bastard, so his way of embracing his Targaryen-descent is by taking up dark sister as his sword;) nothing but wild speculation, though

[Jon Icefyre]

Whenever someone brings up what sword Jon will use against the others, I always remember the (dragon) dream that Jon had. He was on top of the Wall, sending the undead back down to die again, and burning in his hand is none other than Longclaw.

True but it's not like GRRM could have him wielding Blackfyre, Dark Sister, or Dawn in that dream or it would give away far too much of the plot........

[Ghost's Shadow]

Maybe he sets it aside as he realizes that he isn't actually a bastard, so his way of embracing his Targaryen-descent is by taking up dark sister as his sword;) nothing but wild speculation, though

I think he voiced it quite nicely when he was given the sword:

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

He'll always be that bastard, I think, no matter what title you wish to give him, or what name you will call him.