R+L=J v. 52

[FrozenFire3]

Ya what was the deal with that? I remember seeing pics of the Brandon/Aerys scene while season 1 was still in production and that might have been the scene I was looking forward to seeing the most in season 1, but for some reason they never showed it......

And while we're on the subject of Aerys and Brandon, I think for me the most intriguing aspect of R+L=J being revealed to Jon isn't the prospect of him being King, for me it's seeing how Jon will deal and come to terms with the fact that although the Starks would still be part of his family, the other part of his family(Targs) are responsible for a lot of Stark suffering....I mean Jon's uncle on his mother's side threatens to kill Jon's father for supposedly 'kidnapping' Jon's mother, so in return Jon's grandfather on his father's side brutally executes Jon's uncle and grandfather on his mother's side. To go along with the fact that the man Jon believed to be his father, would actually be his uncle and best friend of the man who was responsible for slaying Jon's actual biological father. I mean damn, talk about awkward family ties lol, but really......

Awkward indeed lol Not to mention his mentor-mentee relationship with Donal Noye, the smith who forged the weapon that killed his father. And detractors still claim R+L=J is a boring clichéd twist...

p.s. sorry for multiposting but I don't seem to be able to multiquoting with the app :-/

[FrozenFire3]

I've just finished reading through the Dunk&egg novellas and noticed Aegon explaining how every new born Targaryen gets a dragon egg put in their cribs, like its the most natural thing.

So if R+L=J is true, chances are that Rheagar brought a dragon egg to TOJ for Jon, when Ned had promised to keep Jon safe and hidden he could not really just leave one of the most expensive things in the realm to roll around a empty crib for thief's to steal, but if he took it himself it would also be mighty suspicious...

So where would you hide the egg so that no-one but Jon would ever find it (since its his, and Ned was a stand up guy!)

Why in the catacombs inside Lyannas tomb of-course!

Jon has got an great urge to visit the crypts, and there's hints that he will find something down there, maby he will find the egg and realize his heritege (thus raising from the stone of Winterfell as a dragon)

or maby the egg has hatched during the sacking (Fire and blood spill, maby even kings blood if Theons presumed bastard perished.) and and actual dragon rises from the stone of Winterfell!

What do you think about my theory (and my first post here)?

Welcome to the fellowship of the R...+L=J :) Both your theories (metaphorical and non) have some basis and have been ciclically debated on this forum. Kudos for reaching your conclusion on your own. The importance of the crypts is confirmed by Jon's recurring dreams. The angst of not belonging usually accompanies them together with an undefined sense of search...

[Maxpey]

Awkward indeed lol Not to mention his mentor-mentee relationship with Donal Noye, the smith who forged the weapon that killed his father. And detractors still claim R+L=J is a boring clichéd twist...

p.s. sorry for multiposting but I don't seem to be able to multiquoting with the app :-/

But it will be a boring cliched twist if Jon sits on the IT! (JK!!) ;)

Seriously though, it will be interesting to see in what direction GRRM takes Jon's plot line.

Will he embrace his Targaryen heritage and seek the IT, or will he reject it and instead take a different path?

We also have Maester Aemon as another of Jon's mentors. He chose to honor his duty as a member of the NW instead of accepting the IT when it was offered to him. How will this knowledge affect Jon when he faces the same decision?

ed. spelling

[Jory Cassel]

Another point to the list of lines with a possible hidden meaning that George RR Marting probably was chuckling about while writing it:

"Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King's blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It's nonsense. Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He's a brigand, nothing more. There's no power in brigand's blood."

[FrozenFire3]

But it will be a boring cliched twist if Jon sits on the IT! (JK!!) ;)

Seriously though, it will be interesting to see in what direction GRRM takes Jon's plot line.

Will he embrace his Targaryen heritage and seek the IT, or will he reject it and instead take a different path?

We also have Maester Aemon as another of Jon's mentors. He chose to honor his duty as a member of the NW instead of accepting the IT when it was offered to him. How will this knowledge affect Jon when he faces the same decision?

ed. spelling

I'm afraid there won't be a path for Jon at the end of the day. But mayhaps it's only my pessimism. Or Grrm's oh-so-delicious sadism ;)

[Alia of the knife]

I tend to agree that Jon's destiny, while transformative, (hint, hint), will not be the Iron Throne.

However, in analyzing the many characters, I find myself going back and forth on the matter of their characters.

Perhaps the scene between Robb and Jon when they were young and playing at "Lords and Bastards," is a hint towards Jons narrative that he does covet, and is ambitious.

I think sometimes the fans impose their own narrative on the nature of the character, but given that Neds whole focus of teaching was on honor and duty, presented with his true heritage, Jon may run headlong towards his Targaryen side, feeling as thought not only does he have to avenge his Stark family, but his Targaryne family as well.

Another clue to the "grey" arc his character takes.

Of course the irony is that part of the promise that Lyanna exacted from Ned may also have been to keep him safe from political intrigues, and becoming a figure-head for more rebellion, with Jon running headlong into the very element that Lyanna wanted to save him from.

[Maxpey]

I tend to agree that Jon's destiny, while transformative, (hint, hint), will not be the Iron Throne.

However, in analyzing the many characters, I find myself going back and forth on the matter of their characters.

Perhaps the scene between Robb and Jon when they were young and playing at "Lords and Bastards," is a hint towards Jons narrative that he does covet, and is ambitious.

I think sometimes the fans impose their own narrative on the nature of the character, but given that Neds whole focus of teaching was on honor and duty, presented with his true heritage, Jon may run headlong towards his Targaryen side, feeling as thought not only does he have to avenge his Stark family, but his Targaryne family as well.

Another clue to the "grey" arc his character takes.

Of course the irony is that part of the promise that Lyanna exacted from Ned may also have been to keep him safe from political intrigues, and becoming a figure-head for more rebellion, with Jon running headlong into the very element that Lyanna wanted to save him from.

Interesting question. However, I wonder if the opposite is true, that Lyanna made Ned promise to support Jon's claim when the time was right.

We know Ned was tortured by "broken promises." I wonder if this was one of them.

[Nami]

Another point to the list of lines with a possible hidden meaning that George RR Marting probably was chuckling about while writing it:

"Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King's blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It's nonsense. Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He's a brigand, nothing more. There's no power in brigand's blood."

I love that after I found out about R+L=J, I noticed a lot of passages like this and I read all of them with a knowing grin LOL

[Alia of the knife]

Interesting question. However, I wonder if the opposite is true, that Lyanna made Ned promise to support Jon's claim when the time was right.

We know Ned was tortured by "broken promises." I wonder if this was one of them.

That's a good point too.

And it's interesting to note Benjens reaction and behavior in terms of what he knows when he says to Jon essentially that it was a good thing that he was not his "Father." It makes me wonder if he's not alluding to something he knows, given his stance seems a little more aggressive.

In other words, were he the one raising Jon, would he go to war and press Jons claim instead of hide it?

Ned really may have been the only gentle "wolf" in the bunch, though Ned could indeed be ruthless.

[Maxpey]

That's a good point too.

And it's interesting to note Benjens reaction and behavior in terms of what he knows when he says to Jon essentially that it was a good thing that he was not his "Father." It makes me wonder if he's not alluding to something he knows, given his stance seems a little more aggressive.

In other words, were he the one raising Jon, would he go to war and press Jons claim instead of hide it?

Ned really may have been the only gentle "wolf" in the bunch, though Ned could indeed be ruthless.

:agree: Thinking about this more, I also wonder how much of Rhaegar's belief in TPTWP prophesy Lyanna shared, if any. If she was of a similar mind as Rhaegar, I believe she would have made Ned promise to tell Jon the truth at some point in order to give him the best chance to fulfill the prophesy. Although Ned may have promised Lyanna he would tell Jon, he might have questioned whether Lyanna's belief was the product of the fever that eventually killed her. Maybe this doubt is what prevented him from fulfilling his promise to Lyanna. I know this is a lot of conjecture and speculation, but I think it's interesting to consider this possibility.

[Ser G Man]

I tend to agree that Jon's destiny, while transformative, (hint, hint), will not be the Iron Throne.

Forced to place my flag in the sand, I come down on the side of Jon winning the Iron Throne (taking Dany as his bride). I think his brief and nearly fatal tour as Commander of the Night's Watch shows an ability to rule.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Forced to place my flag in the sand, I come down on the side of Jon winning the Iron Throne (taking Dany as his bride). I think his brief and nearly fatal tour as Commander of the Night's Watch shows an ability to rule.

I think you'll find that many disagree vehemently about the bolded statement, while agreeing enthusiastically with the italics. In other words, the latter does not prove the former.

It doesn't appear that Jon's story arc is leading him further South than Winterfell, but rather inexorably North. There have been zero hints of him pairing with Dany (for me personally- :ack: ) but many of him and Val, for instance. His destiny as the son of R+L will no doubt be of great importance to the Seven Kingdoms, but given the general lack of relevance of the IT to the North in its long history, I don't think his relevance will come as the one whose arse is parked on the throne in KL. If there is a throne in KL by the end a ADoS ;)

[Alia of the knife]

:agree: Thinking about this more, I also wonder how much of Rhaegar's belief in TPTWP prophesy Lyanna shared, if any. If she was of a similar mind as Rhaegar, I believe she would have made Ned promise to tell Jon the truth at some point in order to give him the best chance to fulfill the prophesy. Although Ned may have promised Lyanna he would tell Jon, he might have questioned whether Lyanna's belief was the product of the fever that eventually killed her. Maybe this doubt is what prevented him from fulfilling his promise to Lyanna. I know this is a lot of conjecture and speculation, but I think it's interesting to consider this possibility.

If there was a prophesy he was obcessed with, I think thar Lyanna could both love Rhaegar, but still be concerned with his state of mind and the future of Jon, as well as what Viserys and his as yet unborn sister might do to Jon.

[Ser G Man]

I think you'll find that many disagree vehemently about the bolded statement ...

Eh, no surprise. I've never been accused of being the brightest lamp in the living room.

[Jon Icefyre]

That's a good point too.

And it's interesting to note Benjens reaction and behavior in terms of what he knows when he says to Jon essentially that it was a good thing that he was not his "Father." It makes me wonder if he's not alluding to something he knows, given his stance seems a little more aggressive.

In other words, were he the one raising Jon, would he go to war and press Jons claim instead of hide it?

Ned really may have been the only gentle "wolf" in the bunch, though Ned could indeed be ruthless.

:agree:

"A bastard can have honor too," Jon said. "I am ready to swear your oath."

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Also in this quote Benjen gives the impression that he's strictly talking about a woman's love and starting a family, but I've always wondered if there's a deeper meaning behind this. For example, when Benjen says, "You might, if you knew what it meant." He could've really meant, "You might, if you knew you'd be giving up your claim to the IT".

[Jory Cassel]

Great find, a very exemplary discussion of how a discussion drifts off from the superficial topic to a hidden one, only known to one of the dialogue partners.

While reading, I already wondered why Benjen would "repeat" himself in the last line, since he struck me as someone of many (superfluous) words, but I never saw it in this context.

[UVA]

I love that after I found out about R+L=J, I noticed a lot of passages like this and I read all of them with a knowing grin LOL

A King in Hiding is a super interesting thread that collates these hints pointing to Jon being a king and/or having royal blood.

[Alia of the knife]

:agree:

"A bastard can have honor too," Jon said. "I am ready to swear your oath."

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Also in this quote Benjen gives the impression that he's strictly talking about a woman's love and starting a family, but I've always wondered if there's a deeper meaning behind this. For example, when Benjen says, "You might, if you knew what it meant." He could've really meant, "You might, if you knew you'd be giving up your claim to the IT".[/

Exactly, and so Martin - Double entendre and irony rolled into one :)

[bobbechk]

I love how some people think that (if R+L=J) Jon will be PTWP and Azor Ahai, save the world from the others riding a warged dragon and then become king of IT and the North and live happily ever after...

I really cant tell what sort of books they have been reading (or smoking) to not see that heroism comes with great sacrifice in the world of Westeros!

I can see Jon as AA or PTWP in which role he ends up sacrificing himself to play a important part in stopping the others

OR I can see him march to take the IT as a legitimate Targ using dragons and whatnot, but ending up sacrificing a good part of Westeros to the others.. or heck maby even all of Westeros perishes due to his decision!

I just cant see the end scene with Jon alive (and i have a gloom feeling that it might not be all that sugar sweet or happy at all...)

[Ygrain]

"You might, if you knew you'd be giving up your claim to the IT"

What are those Information Technologies everyone speak about? :D