R+L=J v. 52

[Albertine]

How so?

ETA: BTW, no-one says that Jon must have been conceived at ToJ, only that he was conceived after Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar.

Well, even less relevant. If Lyanna gave birth in the Tower of Joy, the shorter the time she was confined there, the more wiggle room there is on the conception end.

[bobbybuilderton]

Not to mention that Lyanna probably would have fought back if Robert raped her, and Ned wouldn't have to tell him that he didn't know her as well as he thought. And a high born lord having sex with an unwilling high born woman is typically only done when it's considered the duty of the man, ie the marriage bed. He had sex with Cersei because it was expected of him, most likely. Him "taking what he wants" isn't a quality known of him, as he is said to have been quite attractive and desirable when he was younger.

[Albertine]

Problem with this is simply that if Robert had raped Lyanna, you wouldn't see Ned being half as dedicated to Robert as he is...

Except that after Ned left King's Landing, he did stop being friends with Robert. By the time they meet again, Robert is an established King. And Ned doesn't really want to go help him.

Also: Lyanna was Robert's fiancee. And Ned was a pretty old school guy. I'm not sure that he would have the same definition of 'rape' as Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

Well, even less relevant. If Lyanna gave birth in the Tower of Joy, the shorter the time she was confined there, the more wiggle room there is on the conception end.

The wiggle room is Sack + up to 1 month - maximum 9 months, which leaves you with a couple of months into the rebellion. A nine-month period would never be referred to as one year.

[Albertine]

Him "taking what he wants" isn't a quality known of him, as he is said to have been quite attractive and desirable when he was younger.

It is a terrible mistake to assume that men only commit rape because they do not have access to willing women. Many rapists have plenty of access to consensual sex. It doesn't stop them.

Robert wanted Lyanna. Lyanna did not want him. And Rhaegar was in the way. I think if he had the opportunity, he'd have forced his hand.

[Jory Cassel]

Except that after Ned left King's Landing, he did stop being friends with Robert. By the time they meet again, Robert is an established King. And Ned doesn't really want to go help him.

Also: Lyanna was Robert's fiancee. And Ned was a pretty old school guy. I'm not sure that he would have the same definition of 'rape' as Lyanna.

And when he came back from the ToJ, they reconciled out of the grief they both felt for Lyanna. Not something Ned would do if Robert was her rapist.

There is no evidence that he "doesn't really want to go help him", he simply feels/knows that KL is not his place but the North is, loyalty towards Robert is one of the reasons Cat uses to convince him to go.

[Ygrain]

Except that after Ned left King's Landing, he did stop being friends with Robert. By the time they meet again, Robert is an established King. And Ned doesn't really want to go help him.

Also: Lyanna was Robert's fiancee. And Ned was a pretty old school guy. I'm not sure that he would have the same definition of 'rape' as Lyanna.

This is really a stretch. Ned doesn't want to be involved in the viper's nest politics but it is clear from his PoVs that he still loves Robert dearly.

And sorry but Ned's moral compass is more than alright, he doesn't tolerate any abuse, and would have sided with Lyanna (provided that Robert would have survived the rape attempt in the first place)

[The guy from the Vale]

Except that after Ned left King's Landing, he did stop being friends with Robert. By the time they meet again, Robert is an established King. And Ned doesn't really want to go help him.

Also: Lyanna was Robert's fiancee. And Ned was a pretty old school guy. I'm not sure that he would have the same definition of 'rape' as Lyanna.

Ned and Robert met again after Lyanna's death, and later on during the Greyjoy Rebellion. Why would Ned have helped Robert there at all if the latter had raped Lyanna?

[bobbybuilderton]

It is a terrible mistake to assume that men only commit rape because they do not have access to willing women. Many rapists have plenty of access to consensual sex. It doesn't stop them.

Robert wanted Lyanna. Lyanna did not want him. And Rhaegar was in the way. I think if he had the opportunity, he'd have forced his hand.

I'm talking about Robert specifically though, not a trait of rapists in general. The point that I was making is that Robert himself isn't known to rape women, as far as I remember.

There's also the fact that Ned said Robert loved her even more than he did. It's pretty unlikely that Robert raped her, if he loved her even more than her own brother did.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more.

[Albertine]

TBH, the thing that is giving me pause w/ my R+L theory is still just the timeline. So according to people on this thread...

1. The Rebellion lasted about a year.

2. The Rebellion didn't start until two months after Lyanna was kidnapped

3. So Lyanna was in the Tower for...one year and two months? But gave birth only 1-2 months before Ned arrived on the scene.

Is this correct?

[Ygrain]

TBH, the thing that is giving me pause w/ my R+L theory is still just the timeline. So according to people on this thread...

1. The Rebellion lasted about a year.

2. The Rebellion didn't start until two months after Lyanna was kidnapped

3. So Lyanna was in the Tower for...one year and two months? But gave birth only 1-2 months before Ned arrived on the scene.

Is this correct?

Not exactly. Lyanna was missing for over a year and gave birth no longer than approximately a fortnight prior Ned's arrival.

ETA: First :P

[Albertine]

And sorry but Ned's moral compass is more than alright, he doesn't tolerate any abuse, and would have sided with Lyanna (provided that Robert would have survived the rape attempt in the first place)

The timeline might convince me, but this not at all.

Ned was really good to his wife, but he was exactly the sort of guy who'd say, "Other men's marriages are not my business" and "A contract must be honored." I absolutely can picture him standing by Robert, who loved Lyanna and just wanted to make sure their engagement turned into a marriage, over Rhaegar, who was already married and causing problems with his pesky feelings.

Also, to speak to another point further down in the thread: the fact that Robert cared about Lyanna in no way convinces me that he would not rape her. I'm not sure how that makes sense at all. He would have raped her BECAUSE he loved her. It would have been rape because she said no.

And he was a huge, unstoppable warrior. Lyanna was strong, and maybe she could have fought back or killed him in his sleep, but her dilemma came from being engaged to the guy. Her family would not have been impressed if did either of those things.

[Albertine]

Not exactly. Lyanna was missing for over a year and gave birth no longer than approximately a fortnight prior Ned's arrival.

ETA: First :P

Lyanna was missing for a year BEFORE the Rebellion? Or during the year OF the Rebellion?

[Jory Cassel]

If we know one thing about Ned for sure it is: Honor is important to him, but the thing that is more important is family. He was about to tell the truth about Joffrey publicly, as his honor demanded it, but he didn't to save his daughter(s) (edit: or more accurately: he withdraw the accusations; he wouldn't have seen the outside of the black cells if he hadn't). He would never - NEVER - abide of Robert raping his sister, not even to honor a marriage contract.

[bobbybuilderton]

The timeline might convince me, but this not at all.

Ned was really good to his wife, but he was exactly the sort of guy who'd say, "Other men's marriages are not my business" and "A contract must be honored." I absolutely can picture him standing by Robert, who loved Lyanna and just wanted to make sure their engagement turned into a marriage, over Rhaegar, who was already married and causing problems with his pesky feelings.

Also, to speak to another point further down in the thread: the fact that Robert cared about Lyanna in no way convinces me that he would not rape her. I'm not sure how that makes sense at all. He would have raped her BECAUSE he loved her. It would have been rape because she said no.

And he was a huge, unstoppable warrior. Lyanna was strong, and maybe she could have fought back or killed him in his sleep, but her dilemma came from being engaged to the guy. Her family would not have been impressed if did either of those things.

You are working off of the definition of love as passion, lust, etc. I read "he loved lyanna" as he cared for her and respected her above everything else. So no, he wouldn't rape her because he loved her. But again, this comes down to differing interpretations of the claim that he loved her, stemming from different definitions of love. Support for my interpretation is that it would not fit for Ned to compare his brotherly love to Robert's sexual love. When he says Robert loved her even more than he did, I read that as more than just "his heart skipped a beat when he looked at her."

[Ygrain]

The timeline might convince me, but this not at all.

Ned was really good to his wife, but he was exactly the sort of guy who'd say, "Other men's marriages are not my business" and "A contract must be honored." I absolutely can picture him standing by Robert, who loved Lyanna and just wanted to make sure their engagement turned into a marriage, over Rhaegar, who was already married and causing problems with his pesky feelings.

Also, to speak to another point further down in the thread: the fact that Robert cared about Lyanna in no way convinces me that he would not rape her. I'm not sure how that makes sense at all. He would have raped her BECAUSE he loved her. It would have been rape because she said no.

And he was a huge, unstoppable warrior. Lyanna was strong, and maybe she could have fought back or killed him in his sleep, but her dilemma came from being engaged to the guy. Her family would not have been impressed if did either of those things.

Are we talking about the same Ned who was appalled by Robert's treatment of Cersei - the woman whom he already knew to be an evil, incestuous viper suspected of the murder of Jon Arryn. The very Ned who always put family first. There is no way he would close his eyes to Robert forcing himself on Lyanna.

Lyanna was missing for a year BEFORE the Rebellion? Or during the year OF the Rebellion?

Lyanna was missing the whole rebellion and disappeared some time prior the fighting broke out (the estimate is about two months)

[Albertine]

I'm talking about Robert specifically though, not a trait of rapists in general. The point that I was making is that Robert himself isn't known to rape women, as far as I remember.

There's also the fact that Ned said Robert loved her even more than he did. It's pretty unlikely that Robert raped her, if he loved her even more than her own brother did.

Actually, Robert specifically is well-known to repeatedly have sex w/ an unwilling woman, and to not take responsibility for his actions (blaming them on drink). Clearly, Robert is not Roose Bolton, for example. He doesn't wander around tormenting strangers. But in the case of Lyanna, he had a very strong motive. His feelings, his pride, and his politics would all have pointed in the same direction.

[The guy from the Vale]

Actually, Robert specifically is well-known to repeatedly have sex w/ an unwilling woman, and to not take responsibility for his actions (blaming them on drink). Clearly, Robert is not Roose Bolton, for example. He doesn't wander around tormenting strangers. But in the case of Lyanna, he had a very strong motive. His feelings, his pride, and his politics would all have pointed in the same direction.

Well, the timeline doesn't fit for one thing, and Jon really doesn't have the looks either... which he should have, or else Ned would have come to quite different conclusions in KL.

[Ygrain]

Actually, Robert specifically is well-known to repeatedly have sex w/ an unwilling woman, and to not take responsibility for his actions (blaming them on drink). Clearly, Robert is not Roose Bolton, for example. He doesn't wander around tormenting strangers. But in the case of Lyanna, he had a very strong motive. His feelings, his pride, and his politics would all have pointed in the same direction.

Yet, his treatment of Cersei stands in contrast to the depiction of his other exploits. Raping Cersei is not from love or sexual desire but it's asserting his dominance over her in the only way he can.

[Albertine]

Are we talking about the same Ned who was appalled by Robert's treatment of Cersei - the woman whom he already knew to be an evil, incestuous viper suspected of the murder of Jon Arryn. The very Ned who always put family first. There is no way he would close his eyes to Robert forcing himself on Lyanna.

I had the impression that Ned's decision was so momentous for him because it was a first. The first time he had a choice between honor and family, and chose family at the expense of honor.

Clearly a lot of people here think Ned would have taken up Lyanna's cause. But at the time when it happened--before the Rebellion--he would have been a younger son. Not even the heir. It would not have been his place to do anything.

Frankly, I feel like a lot of the posters are conveniently forgetting how patriarchy works. Maybe Ned 'didn't know Lyanna' because she'd been having an affair with Rhaegar, which was wrong and forbidden and a betrayal of her duty. But it might equally have been because she refused to do her duty by marrying Robert, or thought she had some right to refuse him.

Ned's relationship with Arya kind of informs my opinion here. He keeps telling Arya that her job is to marry where she's told and give up her dreams of doing anything else. He himself married where he was told, in his brother's place.

Even today, in the present, plenty of people think that there's no such thing as rape within a marriage. That certain binding contracts make it impossible to refuse. And I think in Westeros, when talking about an engagement in danger of foundering, whatever Lyanna's feelings on the matter, her family would not have felt the same way.

Lyanna was missing the whole rebellion and disappeared some time prior the fighting broke out (the estimate is about two months)

Okay, so...

1. Lyanna disappeared two months before the Rebellion started

2. The Rebellion lasted about a year.

3. Lyanna gave birth before the Rebellion ended.

4. Lyanna conceived ~5 months after she was abducted

If that's true, the evidence does point pretty strongly to Rhaegar.