Why Did The Hound Have Soft Spots for The Stark Daughters.

[Black Wolf Smith]

First before I forget, he's nice to Arya because she's Sansa's sister.¹

Anyway, Sansa is looking for her true knight, and she literally runs right into Sandor.²

1. It is not what everybody thinks. Sandor has a kinship with Arya that he will never have w/ Sansa even if he winds up with her.

Both are orphaned, are in the shadow of an older sibling (both figurative and literally)and desire vengeance.

No matter how tall Sandor is, Gregor is taller, stronger, and Lord of their house.

Arya has always been compared to taller, prettier, more talented and Lady like Sansa.

Gregor beat up, stole from and burned Sandor.

Sansa picked on, laugh at, and sided against Arya. (which Sandor saw up close)

Sandor wants to kill Gregor.

Arya wants to kill everybody who wronged the Starks/her/her father.

Both have a knack for killing, w/ little to no regrets about it.

And both have bided their time, waiting for their chance to strike.

2. I agree w/ almost everything you said about San/San and would add to that. She tells of her idea's of what a Knight should be, Strong, and handsome and brave....etc. etc. and he really is almost everything she said, but isn't handsome or a Knight. She does at least start to see it after he left, which is why she dreamed of him kissing her.

[Le Cygne]

Everyone thinks it, not only because they say so all the time, but because they do so all the time. It's why we put up with our in-laws even though we might never choose to do so otherwise.

It doesn't mean we don't come to like some of them. I never ruled that out. You took what I said out of context. The person I was responding to said:

Premise: Sandor is nice to Sansa. Sandor is nice to Arya.

Conclusion: Therefore, he must think of them both the same way (brotherly).

I disagreed, I think he's attracted to Sansa, and he doesn't have to see both sisters the same way to be nice to them. He's initially nice to Arya because she's Sansa's sister. He's Sandor Clegane, not Santa Claus. He doesn't go around being randomly nice to girls who want to kill him.

I also want to bring up the literary technique of juxtaposition and how GRRM uses it a lot. He's done that here, with Sansa and Arya. Sandor runs away from Sansa and runs right into her sister (and proceeds to talk endlessly about Sansa, ultimately sobbing about her on his deathbed).

This is all very deliberate. This is a work of fiction, not real life. Coincidences don't happen so much there, but it's fine when they do in fiction. Don't have Sansa's dress torn off, and Sandor has no reason to give her his cloak. So she has her dress torn off. Deliberate.

Here's an example, from a chapter in ACOK:

Throughout the Sansa/Sandor story, the author repeats three things, and he does it all in one chapter in this example: true knights, Lady, Florian and Jonquil:

Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me...

Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could...

Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he'll keep me safe, my Florian...

Then he has Sansa run straight into Sandor:

She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall.

And one by one, Sandor takes on each: true knights, Lady, Florian and Jonquil:

"You like knights, don't you?... True knights..."

"I never got my song... Florian and Jonquil?"

"A dog can smell a lie, you know."

[Le Cygne]

The author is trying to show a connection, "there's something there," and he does it again and again.

Another example, he juxtaposes Sandor and Gregor, and shows the concept of "true knight".

Sandor tells Sansa the story of his face and there's this, "he was no true knight":

The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. "He was no true knight," she whispered to him.

The Hound threw back his head and roared. Sansa stumbled back, away from him, but he caught her arm. "No," he growled at her, "no, little bird, he was no true knight."

In their next scene, Sandor is a true knight, rescuing Loras from Gregor:

Ned Stark would have loved nothing so well as to see them both lose, but Sansa was watching it all moist-eyed and eager...

This time, when Jaime shifted his seat, Sandor Clegane shifted with him. Both lances exploded, and by the time the splinters had settled, a riderless blood bay was trotting off in search of grass while Ser Jaime Lannister rolled in the dirt, golden and dented.

Sansa said, "I knew the Hound would win."...

But as Gregor lifted his sword for the killing blow, a rasping voice warned, "Leave him be," and a steel-clad hand wrenched him away from the boy...

"Is the Hound the champion now?" Sansa asked Ned...

A few moments later Ser Loras Tyrell walked back onto the field in a simple linen doublet and said to Sandor Clegane, "I owe you my life. The day is yours, ser."

"I am no ser," the Hound replied.

And for a clue as to what he means by "moist-eyed," he used the same words describing Jeyne Poole's attraction to Robb (just as he used the same words when Sandor pulled Sansa closer for a kiss that he used when Dunk pulled Rohanne closer for a kiss, and when Sansa was fantasizing about kissing Sandor that he used when Dany was fantasizing about kissing Daario, and so on).

And that brings up another point, the Beauty and the Beast parallel. He uses the same words there, too:

The Beast to Beauty:

"My name is not My Lord," replied the monster, "but Beast; I don't love compliments, not I. I like people to speak as they think; and so do not imagine, I am to be moved by any of your flattering speeches."

The Hound to Sansa:

"Spare me your empty little compliments, girl... and your ser's. I am no knight."

"True knights," he mocked. "And I'm no lord, no more than I'm a knight."

These are all basic literary techniques, but he uses them very effectively.

[Le Cygne]

Also one more point, this is all based on the story to date. We're not talking about the next book, or the one after that.

GRRM:

"Subtlety is a virtue. There are things in there that some of my readers pick up on and that other readers miss until it's pointed out to them... I like to reward the readers who are reading closely and paying attention. I like to write the books to reward rereading. I think the first time you read, you're reading for plot, you're reading for what happens next, is the hero going to live or die, or something like that. But then if you go back and reread the book you may pick up things on the second or the third reading that you might have missed the first time, and you say oh my god, look what he's doing here. Look at the foreshadowing, he said this and I didn't notice it the first time, but it's right there, etc."

And "close reading" is also a standard term. It means doing exactly what some of us are doing (what I've done above), look at the text closely for meaning. And keeping the text in context is key, that means not isolating one sentence loaded with subtext.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

First before I forget, he's nice to Arya because she's Sansa's sister. That's what everyone thinks. Just saying.

"Everyone else" doesn't think that. Perhaps you and some others who think alike do, but you're not "everyone".

And secondly, your other point that Sandor thinks of Sansa like a sister is not based in the text. One chapter shows you that, and there's lots more where this came from. Blackwater takes place in Sansa's bed (where he is waiting for her). That's like when her breasts are bared so he can give her his cloak, why do you think the scene was written that way. And so on. He's clearly attracted to her.

Just because you say it is true doesn't make it so. The story could just as easily be written that way to play with the fantasies of a 13 year old girl, not to show interest on the part of a 29 year old man. Again, I'll go back to GRRM's own quote that they may "mind you", see the relationship very differently.

Anyway, Sansa is looking for her true knight, and she literally runs right into Sandor.

This is all from the unreliable narrator (author's words) perspective of a 13 year old girl. Again, the author's intent may be to show just another side of Sansa's own fantasizing, and maturation over time. The "bad boy" fantasy versus the "perfect Prince" fantasy.

Here's a visual of how he's looking at her (GRRM scripted this):

http://www.homeofthe.../108GoT0134.jpg

http://www.homeofthe.../108GoT0137.jpg

You see that as a sexual look, I don't.

He says she's pretty (he does that often) and wants her to look at him and asks for a "song" (sexual double entendre):

Let's try it this way. Suppose Sansa was not attracted to him at all. Then everything he is doing could be just as easily described as creepy/threatening/implying rape. And this is the alternative you don't seem to grasp as being possible. It is entirely possible that Sandor is dwelling/wallowing in his own villiany with this, playing the role he's always played, and he says those things with an intent of conveying violence. Or reminder her what is going to happen to her in KL now that she's flowered. He's a bad guy, so he's saying something bad. That's part of his development, and his character story. Sansa, as the 13 year old girl, sees it as romance. Hence, two different perspectives of the same act.

I am not saying that your interpretation of this is contradicted by the text. I am simply saying the text permits more than one reasonable interpretation, and that yours (IMHO) is not correct. It's not unreasonable or ridiculous, but I don't think it is correct.

He touches her four times (he also does that often):

So what? Sheesh, this is just a perfect illustration of the problem. You take something like that as proof of sexual romantic interest. I see it and say "yeah, he touched her four times. So what?" You ascribing some dreamy romanticism to this on the part of Sandor may be correct, or it may be you reading something into it that is not intended. This may be exactly Martin's point. That the still immature, fantasy-driven Sansa is, as she did with Loras, attaching massive significance to things that are not really that significant. She still hasn't grown up, but instead just replaced one fantasy with another.

And you asked for external evidence, so here's some that's recent and directly sourced to the author:

I've seen that, and I think it actually cuts against your point. He is very clear in saying he is perplexed by the interest so many female fans have in "SanSan", and is on the borderline of ridiculing it. He notes that he dropped in some of that in the text (I'd say this is the kiss and her other fantasies), but also appears to think those readers have drawn more out of that than he intended. Again, just because 13 year old Sansa has built up this great romance in her head does not mean that Sandor sees it the same way at all. So yes, her perspective is part of the story, and so it is in there. That doesn't come close to validating that the author himself intends a two-way romance.

Ages (2011):

He's contradicted himself on that, which has been known to happen before.

http://shelf-life.ew...e-with-dragons/

Official WOIAF app:

Again, the "official app" means nothing. And regardless what one believes about "girl/maid/adult", Sansa Stark on that trip was most definitely a child by any definition. And to clarify, this is the book forum so we're discussing these characters as they are in the books. And book Sansa isn't 17 year old Sophie Turner, but a 12 year old girl who hasn't hit puberty. She's a 6th grader. And if Sandor truly did become "infatuated" with her (a claim that is not from GRRM) then he is a pedophilic pervert by any definition.

Like I said, I prefer my version of that story to one involving pedophilia.

[Le Cygne]

Just to set the record straight, GRRM approved the app, which is about the books. The rest of your comments don't make any sense to me. Looking at a woman's breasts is not sexual? That's a new one.

The author wrote a romance for Dany (13) and Drogo (30):

"What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic."

http://www.ustream.t...corded/21681757

He's been very consistent about the ages in recent interviews, here he is again (2011):

"In the books, Dany is 13 years old when all of this begins...

"They had child and adult. And the difference between them was the onset of sexual maturity.

"The Catholics once considered 13 adulthood... These things are just remnants now, but they weren't remnants in the middle ages, and they're not in the books. They had a very different way of looking at things. So I was using that based on historical precedent."

Also, keep meaning to comment on the unreliable narrator thing. He's talking about the SECOND SCENE, where she remembers the kiss. That's all.

Question: Here's a really particular question (which I realize means it probably won't get asked in a general interview): In A Storm of Swords, there is a chapter early on where Sansa is thinking back to the scene at the end of A Clash of Kings when The Hound came into her room during the battle. She thinks in the chapter about how he kissed her, but in the scene in A Clash of Kings, this actually didn't happen. Was that a typo or something?

GRRM: It's not a typo. It is something! [Laughs] 'Unreliable narrator' is the key phrase there. The second scene is from Sansa's thoughts. And what does that reveal about her psychologically? I try to be subtle about these things.

http://popwatch.ew.c...comment-page-2/

[Black Wolf Smith]

Everyone thinks it, not only because they say so all the time¹, but because they do so all the time. It's why we put up with our in-laws even though we might never choose to do so otherwise².

Premise: Sandor is nice to Sansa. Sandor is nice to Arya.

Conclusion: Therefore, he must think of them both the same way (brotherly³).

This isn't a San/San thread per say.

1. again, No, everybody doesn't think that. I have been here a year and 1/2 and never seen anyone say Sandor was nice to Arya because of Sansa. Maybe you seen that on San/San threads, or Pawn to Player threads(which I stay away from), but really, most people don't think that. IMO Sandor didn't treat Arya very nice when he got her, he treated her as a barginning chip. It is only after the RW, and she starts trying to kill people that they start getting along.

2. WTF? Really WTF? I didn't argue that there were feelings from Sandor and Sansa about each other, but to be so ballies as to say that he thought of Arya as an in-law is way off base. Yes he has a crush on Sansa, but he and Arya related to each other.

3. No that I agreed w/ you on, so I not sure why you be argue about it again.

[Le Cygne]

I was responding to someone else, but whatever. Sandor thought of Arya as Sansa's sister, Sansa was the one he knew. All I was saying.

The thread is about why the Hound feels as he does for Sansa and Arya, the OP says there are different reasons. I agree.

This is interesting, too, how many times he brings Sansa up while he's with Arya, and he's saying the sister word an awful lot:

"Seven hells. The little sister."

"This one's own sister told the same tale..."

"I watched them beat your sister bloody too..."

"I never beat your sister," the Hound said.

"At least you look at my face." (Indirect reference to Sansa/"Look at me")

"Didn't you ever have a brother you wanted to kill?" He laughed again. "Or maybe a sister?" He must have seen something in her face then, for he leaned closer. "Sansa. That's it, isn't it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird."

"You think that makes me some monster. Well, maybe it does, but I saved your sister's life too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got. And she sang for me. You didn't know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song."

"You'd be dead if I had. You ought to thank me. You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did."

"I thought your sister was the one with a head full of songs," the Hound growled.

"She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off... A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her..." (That doesn't sound very brotherly...)

[Røyksopp]

I think this is the entirety of it, and all the overly-analytical shipping is just people reading their own romantic fantasies into the story.

The most important person in Sandor's life isn't Sansa, or Arya. It's Gregor, and what it was like being raised in a home with him. He dreams of killing him, and I don't think it is just because of what Gregor did to Sandor personally. The younger sister looks like an obvious connection to the Stark girls. He sees Sansa being abused, and thinks back to what happened to his own younger sister. He sees Arya alone, and protects her because again, it is a young girl that he can protect even though he couldn't protect his own sister.

That explains his actions without the creepiness of a man in his 20's lusting after a pre-pubescent little girl, and also explains his kindness (in his own way) towards Arya, which doesn't make sense if the connection with Sansa was romantic.

The commonality isn't that they are "parts of him" or "the light in the dark" or anything truly unique to them personally. It's just that they're little girls being abused, and need someone to help them.

Seriously. This is exactly what I think.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her.

That's why he's upset -- because she was a pretty little girl getting beaten, and that relates directly to him failing to protect his own sister from Gregor.

Yes, I took the bloody song, she never gave it.

So...wait a minute. All this stuff about the "song" equalling "sex" is contradicted by this because he's saying "I took the song", yet he very clearly did not have sex with her. Whatever the "song" is to him, it is not sex.

I meant to take her too. I should have.

That's right. He meant to take her out of King's Landing. Again, he failed his sister, and now he's failed Sansa.

I should have fucked her..." (That doesn't sound very brotherly...)

And it is also not about romance. He's talking about rape, which is rather commonly agreed to be about force, brutality, and violence, not sex or romance. And I think what has happened is that some readers have interpreted all this as a "when I mean no I really mean yes" thing, so that Sandor really taking her by force would be some wildly romantic Twilight-esque thing. But it's not. It's just...rape.

But that last sentence illustrates perfectly Sandor's internal struggle, which really has nothing to do with Sansa at all. He has spent most of his life playing the role of the bad guy who didn't care about anyone. He's the guy who killed Mycah, remember? He's the guy who laughs at people getting killed. He's played the role of a guy who would rape a girl like Sansa and think nothing of it. And all of that crap comes bubbling up out of him like Sylvester Stallone's rambling monologue at the end of First Blood. The regrets, the self-loathing (I should have fucked her), etc..

But Sandor doesn't want to be that guy. He wants to be the guy who saved his sister, who saves Sansa and Arya, and who kills the brute who is his brother, because he's constantly talking about Gregor as well. And that his internal struggle, which again, I personally find much more interesting than the pedophilic version. Of course, I'd agree that it's possible for GRRM to take it either way (or even leave it as ambiguous), so we'll have to wait and see.

And btw, you didn't respond when I pointed out that Sandor's alleged "infatuation" with Sansa during the trip from Winterfell (as supposedly claimed in the "official app") would inarguably be complete pedophilia even in Westeros.

[Le Cygne]

Still on the Sandor sees Sansa as a sister thing, I see. You're arguing with the author, not us. Take it up with him.

You made this very personal remark, calling us "shippers" and saying we are reading our romantic fantasies into the story:

I think this is the entirety of it, and all the overly-analytical shipping is just people reading their own romantic fantasies into the story.

I've been pretty polite in response, but I will say this, the story you're telling about Sandor seeing Sansa like his sister has no basis in the text. She is mentioned once here in relation to Gregor:

And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father.

If it was important to see Sandor and Sansa's relationship in terms of his sister, wouldn't she have been mentioned again? Hint: The answer to that is yes. And why all of the touching, kissing, breasts, sexual, marriage references? That you're dismissing wholesale.

Also you're obviously not familiar with the many classic romances that begin with innocent attraction and develop into something sexual later.

The author even wrote that Sandor was there when Sansa flowered. So much detail, like with the cloak references (she dreams of someone tall and strong giving her his cloak and kissing her) and he gives her his cloak, twice, and she dreams of him kissing her.

There's nothing wrong with Sansa having sexual feelings for Sandor, or Sandor having sexual feelings for Sansa, in the context of Westeros. That happens when she's flowering. The author said that means she's an "adult" in several recent interviews (which I've shared).

Same with Dany and Drogo, which the author said is a romance, too.

Look at the text, and enjoy, or read something else, or argue with the author, you have a choice there, but calling the people who have taken the time to analyze the story as literature "shippers" making up a "fantasy" while you're making up a story about Sandor's sister isn't really one of them.

Meet your author. Here's the scene between Dany (13) and Drogo (30) that the author described as "pretty sexy and fairly romantic":

It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her nipples with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her nipples stiffened and began to ache.

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. “No?” he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. “Yes,” she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

Another:

Long after the moon had risen, they sat together, talking. That night, when Khal Drogo came, Dany was waiting for him. He stood in the door of her tent and looked at her with surprise. She rose slowly and opened her sleeping silks and let them fall to the ground. “This night we must go outside, my lord,” she told him, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man’s life must be done beneath the open sky.

Khal Drogo followed her out into the moonlight, the bells in his hair tinkling softly. A few yards from her tent was a bed of soft grass, and it was there that Dany drew him down. When he tried to turn her over, she put a hand on his chest. “No,” she said. “This night I would look on your face.”

There is no privacy in the heart of the khalasar. Dany felt the eyes on her as she undressed him, heard the soft voices as she did the things that Doreah had told her to do. It was nothing to her. Was she not khaleesi? His were the only eyes that mattered, and when she mounted him she saw something there that she had never seen before. She rode him as fiercely as ever she had ridden her silver, and when the moment of his pleasure came, Khal Drogo called out her name.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Still on the Sandor sees Sansa as a sister thing, I see. You're arguing with the author, not us. Take it up with him.

No, I'm arguing with you (singular). The author has never stated publicly that Sandor has a romantic interest in Sansa. Ever.

You made this very personal remark, calling us "shippers" and saying we are reading our romantic fantasies into the story:

Now you're just making stuff up. I didn't call anyone -- including you -- a "shipper". I referred to shipping, so if you've decided that shoe fits, that label is on you, not me. I do think there are some people reading their own romantic fantasies into this story, but again, I didn't say that about any particular poster.

I've been pretty polite in response, but I will say this, the story you're telling about Sandor seeing Sansa like his sister has no basis in the text. She is mentioned once here in relation to Gregor:

As you concede, the sister is in the text. If you choose to attach no significance to that, fine. I think it explains quite well why he might have interest in a girl who is clearly to young to be considered a potential mate for him.

If it was important to see Sandor and Sansa's relationship in terms of his sister, wouldn't she have been mentioned again?

Maybe, maybe not. GRRM has specifically said that there are things he drops in there to see how many people pick up on them.

Hint: The answer to that is yes.

Or no.

And why all of the touching, kissing, breasts, sexual, marriage references? That you're dismissing wholesale.

Uh, huh? Where is the all the kissing? I'll tell you -- it's right in Sansa's head -- right where all that other stuff comes from as well. We get Sandor's POV -- we don't get him dreaming of kissing her.

Also you're obviously not familiar with the many classic romances that begin with innocent attraction and develop into something sexual later.

This is a Sansa-argument, taking reality and turning it into Jonquil and Florian, just like in the stories. I think it is far from an accident that Sansa is having that Jonquil/Florian story going on in her head at the same time as these fantasies about Sandor. It's the author's way of pointing out that she's still in the fantasy [hase.

And, this is exactly the point I was making above. People taking their pre-conceived expectations and applying them to this situation. Why? Well, because that's how it happened on some other favorite stories.

The author even wrote that Sandor was there when Sansa flowered. So much detail, like with the cloak references (she dreams of someone tall and strong giving her his cloak and kissing her) and he gives her his cloak, twice, and she dreams of him kissing her.

Again, you seem to be overlooking that all these things are from Sansa's perspective, when this is a thread about what Sandor is thinking. She's still the little giri living in a fantasy world where even the most mundane events acquire some massive romantic significance. And I agree -- GRRM put that stuff in there deliberately. Not to say that Sandor was infatuated with Sansa, but vice-versa.

There's nothing wrong with Sansa having sexual feelings for Sandor, or Sandor having sexual feelings for Sansa in the context of Westeros. That happens when she's flowering.

NO. You claimed that Sandor was infatuated with her before she even got to KL. I've pointed that out twice now, and you keep ignoring it. Sandor being infatuated with 12 year old, pre-pubescent Sansa is pedophilia, even in Westeros. And I'd say the same still applies when it happens right as she's flowering as well.

You again same with Dany and Drogo, which the author said is a romance, too.

Essos is not Westeros. And, you had indisputable mutual attraction there, with Drogo actually marrying her and having sex.

Look at the text, and enjoy, or read something else, or argue with the author, you have a choice there, but calling us "shippers" while you're making up a story about Sandor's sister isn't really one of them.

I didn't call you a shipper, but if you choose to identify yourself as one, I don't see why you'd be offended anyway.

And again, I notice that you didn't address his "I took [past tense] the bloody song" comment, which given that they didn't have sex or even kiss, means that the "song" isn't either sex or kissing. And the whole issue of the "song" is something to which some SanSan fans attack an enormous amount of sexual significance.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I just have to add that I can't, for the life of me, figure out why Sandor would be attracted to Sansa. From what he has seen of her, she is not particularly bright, she's spoiled, still believing in her songs and fantasies -- something for which he mocks her. She's clearly immature both physically and emotionally. Sandor Clegane, falling in love with a girl who is still building castles in the snow?

He is a fully grown, fully mature man. He's got his issues, but he's an adult through and through. She just doesn't act like an adult, either before or after her flowering. I think that's one reason (apart from how young she is physically) that makes it seem to perverse to so many men in particular.

[Le Cygne]

I think this is the entirety of it, and all the overly-analytical shipping is just people reading their own romantic fantasies into the story.

You said the above. You're making it worse with your subsequent comments. I don't want to talk to you anymore, you're not being nice, and I don't have time for it.

And again, I notice that you didn't address his "I took [past tense] the bloody song" comment, which given that they didn't have sex or even kiss, means that the "song" isn't either sex or kissing. And the whole issue of the "song" is something to which some SanSan fans attack an enormous amount of sexual significance.

Because I already addressed this. You're dismissing the text and the external evidence. There's no point in saying the same thing again and again.

Song is a double entendre, and one that was explored in detail in the books. "I'll have a song from you" after she finds out what song means (Lysa, Marillion). Song is repeated throughout their exchanges so many times, for anyone to NOT attach importance to it would be remiss. It's all in the text, but you're just dismissing the text, that's why you don't get it. I don't have time to walk you through it. Read it again or sound like you never did, that's up to you.

You claimed that Sandor was infatuated with her before she even got to KL.

I didn't say he was infatuated, I said the official app did. Infatuation is about feelings of love. And I explained that in romances, there's often attraction and then sexual feelings later. Read one, seriously, that's my prescription for you. Read a classic romance, then read all of Sansa's chapters, then Arya's in ASOS, and report back.

[Le Cygne]

I just have to add that I can't, for the life of me, figure out why Sandor would be attracted to Sansa. From what he has seen of her, she is not particularly bright, she's spoiled, still believing in her songs and fantasies -- something for which he mocks her. She's clearly immature both physically and emotionally. Sandor Clegane, falling in love with a girl who is still building castles in the snow?

He is a fully grown, fully mature man. He's got his issues, but he's an adult through and through. She just doesn't act like an adult, either before or after her flowering. I think that's one reason (apart from how young she is physically) that makes it seem to perverse to so many men in particular.

No, don't throw this on men. There are lots of men who like this story. You don't like the story because you don't like Sansa. You just said so.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

No, don't throw this on men. There are lots of men who like this story. You don't like the story because you don't like Sansa. You just said so.

I'm not putting it on men, the author is. The interview clip you linked had him stating that the "SanSan" devotees seem to be overwhelming female. Ergo, not male. That's not to say that some men don't see it, but just that most men don't.

And it's not that I don't like Sansa -- I just see her as an immature kid. I've had a daughter that age, been around all her friends that age, and the thought of a 28 year old dude being infatuated with one of them is creepy as hell from an adult male perspective.

Now, Drogo is from a completely different culture, and is engaging in an arranged marriage for political reasons. Supposedly, Sandor isn't interested in any of that, so his attraction would have to be based on just her being herself. Which is...creepy.

[Targaryyen]

Well, I believe he was just interested in ransoming Arya.

I don't really have an explanation about Sansa :/

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You said the above. You're making it worse with your subsequent comments. I don't want to talk to you anymore, you're not being nice, and I don't have time for it.

And yet...you continue to do so. Because for some reason, the idea of someone dismissing SanSan bothers you. Which is also something I don't get.

Because I already addressed this. You're dismissing the text and the external evidence. There's no point in saying the same thing again and again.

Now that is a complete untruth. I pointed out for the first time in post 110 that Sandor saying he "took the bloody song from her", contradicts the claim that "song" means sex or even a kiss.

Song is a double entendre, and one that was explored in detail in the books. "I'll have a song from you" after she finds out what song means (Lysa, Marillion). Song is repeated throughout their exchanges so many times, for anyone to NOT attach importance to it would be remiss. It's all in the text, but you're just dismissing the text, that's why you don't get it. I don't have time to walk you through it. Read it again or sound like you never did, that's up to you.

That's a complete cop-out. If "song" is a double-entendre, that means it has two meanings. Okay, what are those two meanings? You attach importance to it -- fine. So what does it mean, since we now know it doesn't mean sex or romance because of Sandor's use of it.

I didn't say he was infatuated, I said the official app did.

So either 1) the "official app" is not author-approved canon for the books, or 2) the author is directly contradicting himself by saying that a prepubescent 12 year old is a proper object of sexual desire. I vote for 1)

And I explained that in romances, there's often attraction and then sexual feelings later. Read one, seriously, that's my prescription for you. Read a classic romance, then read all of Sansa's chapters, then Arya's in ASOS, and report back.

Twilight and Titanic really aren't my thing, sorry.

[Le Cygne]

I'm not putting it on men, the author is. The interview clip you linked had him stating that the "SanSan" devotees seem to be overwhelming female. Ergo, not male. That's not to say that some men don't see it, but just that most men don't.

And it's not that I don't like Sansa -- I just see her as an immature kid. I've had a daughter that age, been around all her friends that age, and the thought of a 28 year old dude being infatuated with one of them is creepy as hell from an adult male perspective.

Now, Drogo is from a completely different culture, and is engaging in an arranged marriage for political reasons. Supposedly, Sandor isn't interested in any of that, so his attraction would have to be based on just her being herself. Which is...creepy.

He said women find Sandor attractive. He's a man, and he wrote for Beauty and the Beast (and seriously, that quote I gave you gives it away where he's going with this story, too, he took lines directly from the fairytale). A lot of men like the story.

If you're reading the story from a modern, YOU, perspective, you're missing a lot. It's different for Dany and Drogo (13/30) than Sansa and Sandor (13/28) because they're on a different continent?

Here's another example, from the Mystery Knight, she's "freshly flowered" at 15 (which is how old Sansa will be in the next book, likely) and he's 50, and that's in Westeros. Also, she's had sex before the marriage, and it was mutual (in fact, she is the one going to meet him), and Dunk, who is considered a true knight, becomes aroused carrying her naked during the bedding:

The girl was fifteen and freshly flowered, her lord husband fifty and freshly widowed. She was pink and he was grey. Her bride's cloak trailed behind her, done in candy green and white and yellow...

Ser Maynard glanced toward the dais, where the bride was feeding cherries to her husband. "His Lordship will not be the first to butter that biscuit. His bride was deflowered by a scullion at the Twins, they say. She would creep down to the kitchens to meet him..."

Then he lay his head down atop his folded arms and closed his eyes just for a moment, to rest them from the smoke... When he opened them again, half the wedding guests were on their feet and shouting, "Bed them! Bed them!" They were making such an uproar than they woke Dunk from a pleasant dream involving Tanselle Too-Tall and the Red Widow. "Bed them! Bed them!" the calls rang out. Dunk sat up and rubbed his eyes.

Ser Franklyn Frey had the bride in his arms and was carrying her down the aisle, with men and boys swarming all around him. The ladies at the high table had surrounded Lord Butterwell. Lady Vyrwel had recovered from her grief and was trying to pull His Lordship from his chair, while one of his daughters unlaced his boots and some Frey woman pulled up his tunic. Butterwell was flailing at them ineffectually, and laughing. He was drunk, Dunk saw, and Ser Franklyn was a deal drunker ... so drunk, he almost dropped the bride. Before Dunk quite realized what was happening, John the Fiddler had dragged him to his feet. "Here!" he cried out. "Let the giant carry her!"

The next thing he knew, he was climbing a tower stair with the bride squirming in his arms. How he kept his feet was beyond him. The girl would not be still, and the men were all around them, making ribald japes...

Dunk had no notion where Lord Butterwell's bedchamber was to be found, but the other men pushed and prodded him until he got there, by which time the bride was red-faced, giggling, and nearly naked, save for the stocking on her left leg, which had somehow survived the climb. Dunk was crimson too, and not from exertion. His arousal would have been obvious if anyone had been looking, but fortunately all eyes were the bride...

There were noises in the stairwell, glad shouts and girlish laughter. The women were bringing Lord Butterwell to his bride...

[MotherMerciless]

To Former Lord of Winterfell

I really don't feel it is SO impossible for Sandor to have any interest in her. Fine, he's not had her first period when he saw her. Doesn't mean he couldn't have been captivated by her beauty, grace and innocence then. Then she becomes a woman, and the feelings he already had, added to the fact that she is being abused and has suffered a tremendous tragedy and shift in her life just make him all the more emotional and protective about her.

Just because you think it is unacceptable and she isn't interesting, doesn't mean it is impossible for a man to have interest in her.

I personally think he does have amorous feelings for her, and is making huge effort to not act on them for some of the reasons you mentioned. I think the turmoil in his head is mostly a mixture of what this debate is currently about.