Why Did The Hound Have Soft Spots for The Stark Daughters.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

And here we differ vastly as I do feel we are supposed to read it within the fantasy culture it is written in. I don't feel reading it with an eye to modern western ideas is at all relevant.

<snipped the rest>

I'm not sure this is a desirable way. Obviously, all of us readers are late-20th/early-21st century people. GRRM is as well and he is the inventor of this particular fantasy culture, so it cannot avoid being influenced by his own modern outlook.

We cannot change that fact, nor can we become blank slates when reading a book. I think it would be a silly if a reader tried to become a blank slate or could only enjoy a book by setting aside their own personalities. Of course we're going to react to things with regard to how they conform to our own notions of reality.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I can grasp it. I'm not addressing it because there is no point.Well that really didn't come over in your previous posts.There is the fictional character Sansa, and there is a real poster who says I'm being a willing tool of the patriarchy because I used the word "unacceptable" about a relationship between a 13 year old and a man who holds a sword to her neck and about the romantic/sentimental presentation of such a relationship. To be quite honest there were several things I found offensive, I highlighted them if you recall, my offense was not anything to do with anyone's age or any act of holding a knife at a throat, but atthe idea of dictating whom a woman may be involved with, which is at base a patriarchal idea. I don't think there is anything else to add.

Your evidence for this appears to be based on a mishmash of your own experiences and your assumptions about my experiences. Evidence for what exactly? that it is wrong to dictate to a woman who she desires?

You've presented no convincing argument whatsoever that your "patriarchal" gloss is in fact correct, I'm sorry no convincing argument? to what exactly, that what you said implied a right to dictate to a woman who she goes with, that is basically what you said I asked you to think carefully about the implication of the words you used were. That is all. A separate discussion about Sansa and Sandor was threaded throughout but basically my thoughts about your post were and remain completely separate to that discussion. The fact that so many posters were unable to differentiate the two is exasperating. so why should I exchange my reading for yours, or engage with you on this subject in any detail? It's silly Indeed I would not ask you to exchange your reading for my own, but my comments to you were entirely pertaining to a statement regarding a womans right to chose her own partner. Were there in fact some hapless real Juliet I was considering wielding my iron fist over, maybe it might be worthwhile to discuss, but all this offense over a hypothetical approach to a hypothetical situation on the basis of ONE WORD... it's not worth parsing out. I agree this has become silly. as so often is the case when a person is unable to see why their words are offensive.

[Bippy]

Indeed I would not ask you to exchange your reading for my own, but my comments to you were entirely pertaining to a statement regarding a womans right to chose her own partner.

Well my daughter is 7 and even more of a 2nd wave feminist than I am, so I don't think you'd get any change out of her. But I'll bear the point in mind.

[purrl1]

Perhaps this is an outrageous suggestion, but do you think the debate might move back to the OP's question regarding the Hound's hypothetical feelings for/thoughts about the Stark girls? And step away from what Sansa feels/doesn't feel/should feel/shouldn't feel/imagines she feels/has a right to feel?

In the text so far, no romantic or sexual relationship exists between Sansa and Sandor, regardless of what they may or may not feel individually. Unless the Gravedigger theory is true, there never can be such a relationship, because he's dead. If Sandor lives, tho' the Hound is dead, it remains to be seen whether he will encounter the little bird again and what will or won't happen. He may be a changed man, or not. Valid arguments can be made whether Sandor sees Sansa as a little sister to protect, a true lady to serve, or a wench to have sex with, or some other role. But please, support your argument from the book, not from your own life story.

'KTHXBYE

[Bippy]

I think his repeated reference to images of sexual violence against Sansa do show a focus on sexual interest. Can't begin to imagine whether it's positive/negative or, as a poster pointed out above, maybe both. I find it hard to assess the position of someone whose language is primarily violent.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well seen as you seem to think you have as much say in who your adult daughter has a say in dating as Ned would in his world I'd guess you would react the same. Because to put it into context it would be like you dictating to your 18 year old.

Nope. I don't agree with your fundamental assumption that a 12/13 year old girl who has just had her first period in Westeros is the equivalent of an 18 year old. A girl can be married in Westeros at that point -- or even younger -- but she is not legally an adult in Westeros. That's been established multiple times in the text. It's why Joffrey is King, but the Regent rules. Just as a girl cannot rule until she reaches the legal age of majority in Westeros, which is 16.

When Tyrion claims that Sansa is "just a child", Tywin points out that she has bled, but also appears to acknowledge her youth, pointing out that Tyrion just has to do it once to make the marriage legal. That's a recognition that maturity matters.

There are several references by characters in a disapproving sense to extremely young brides. Or age gaps. Walder Frey -- even Jon and Lysa Arryn. What's more, these are all -- every one of them -- arranged marriages. When we see what looks like or is referenced as true love arising on its own rather than arranged, it is Robert/Rhaegar/Lyanna, Ned/Ashara, Tyrion/Tysha, Jon/Ygritte -- all people of roughly the same age and equal points in their life. That's Westeros, not the modern world.

And laying aside the formal issue of what is proper, there is still the issue of an attraction making sense on a purely human level. And while you think Sandor being sexually/romantically attracted to Sansa makes sense, it is incomprehensible to me. On an adult level -- which he most certainly is -- she's a nothing.

I'd say 16 as well I think that this is pretty much my idea of an adult and I'd love to see the voting age bought down. But I need for your tiny brain to process my words and not just start screaming at the thought of a 16 yr old having autonomy.

Really? Why not just throw a lemoncake at me?

In any case, I do see a difference between a 16 year old and a 12/13 year old who has just had her first period. Both in the RL and Westeros. There is a maturation that goes on in those first couple years that is important, and Sansa there yet. It's funny in a way. When Sansa's foibles are pointed out, some folks are very quick to make the excuse that she's obviously not grown up yet, that she's got a lot of maturing to do, so we shouldn't judge her harshly. Yet in this context, it becomes how she's just a fully grown woman.

Because if we are going to compare you to Ned then we need to show you as both living in a comparable world.... To ask me how I think Ned would react brings nothing to either discussion.

Of course it does. Ned's in Westeros, isn't he? Wouldn't his standards matter? I recall that when the Sansa/Joffrey marriage is first proposed, both Ned and Catelyn acknowledge that she's really too young, but that there can be a long engagement and the wedding can happen a couple of years down the road. There's no hint that flowering alone would magically convert Sansa into being a fully mature woman ready to marry.

There are constant references by multiple characters about Sansa's immaturity, and again, no hint that flowering alone would make her emotionally an adult even if it does make it able to be wedded and bedded.

And bringing this all back to the context of this particular thread, what matters is why a man of Sandor's age and experience would be romantically interested in someone as immature as Sansa. Makes zero sense to me.

[Le Cygne]

Of course we're going to react to things with regard to how they conform to our own notions of reality.

I believe the dragons are real when I'm reading. But they don't exist in my reality.

In the same world he said dragons are real, he said women are adults when they flower. He tells a love story for Dany and Drogo. It truly is written that way. She thinks Drogo is handsome from the start. She tells us later she was excited the first night they were together. She says she was never so happy as when he held her at night. Drogo's gift of the silver sets her free. She "rides" Drogo fiercely. He is her sun-and-stars.

Our reality is all around us. I read a gritty, sexy medieval fantasy for GRRM's story, not my own.

[aceluby]

So... Westeros is different so it's ok for this relationship to occur from an age standpoint...

But... Because Sansa doesn't get to choose her partner because in Westeros she doesn't, you get to be offended?

How does that work?

[purrl1]

You're right, Bippy, Sandor's language is primarily violent, such as in Sansa's chapter where she "flowers". They are both looking down from the top of the Keep at the men preparing for battle. This is the scene where she asks if it gives him joy to scare people, and he says no, it gives him joy to kill people. It's a very morbid conversation, for neither of them is in a good frame of mind. But I'm not sure what you mean by

repeated reference to images of sexual violence against Sansa.

Could you please cite the passage(s) you mean? He's all tough talk generally, so it's not always easy to pick up on a specific threat.

[Le Cygne]

So... Westeros is different so it's ok for this relationship to occur from an age standpoint...

But... Because Sansa doesn't get to choose her partner because in Westeros she doesn't, you get to be offended?

How does that work?

It works however Westeros works. In Westeros, there are arranged marriages and marriages for love. And lovers, lots of those. Plenty of examples. Asha and Dany aspire to power and take lovers they choose (Qarl and Daario). Prince Duncan gave up his crown to marry Jenny of Oldstones. Dany was in an arranged marriage and fell in love. Lyanna spurned an arranged marriage to be with the man she loved (so many of us think). Sansa has no one to answer to now, HOWEVER she's been taken hostage and kidnapped. Forced marriages are not cool in Westeros...

[Bippy]

Could you please cite the passage(s) you mean? He's all tough talk generally, so it's not always easy to pick up on a specific threat.

.

I don't mean that he threatens her sexually except in the bedroom scene and there it is not explicit so could be interpreted in different ways. It's already been discussed I think, as part of the Arya viewpoints: he talks about how he saved her from being like Lollys (i.e. gang raped) and then of course there's the famous line where he refers to how he should have FHB.

Now it is my personal bias that if you visualize violent imagery it's because you're fantasizing about committing it, but maybe I'm wrong about that with respect to Sandor Clegane. Point is, he does mention it to someone who would likely be frightened by it, and he mentions it twice, so it's preying on his mind to some degree, one way or the other. I can't interpret it.

[purrl1]

Former Lord of Winterfell, you keep saying Sandor has no romantic interest in Sansa. I'd be interested in your answer to the OP--why does he try to help her?--with appropriate textual support. Given that she's a mere child when she arrives in King's Landing, I do agree that there's no sexual interest on his part, at least at first. Later, she starts outgrowing her dresses and developing a figure, which the Hound comments on (inappropriately). In the conversation on the serpentine steps he says she looks "almost a woman", so he's at least noticing that she's growing up. I'm not asking for anyone to rate the Hound on the Perviness Scale, merely asking for clarification of evidence that there's fraternal or paternal or avuncular feelings as opposed to possible growing romantic/sexual feelings.

[purrl1]

Now it is my personal bias that if you visualize violent imagery it's because you're fantasizing about committing it, but maybe I'm wrong about that with respect to Sandor Clegane. Point is, he does mention it to someone who would likely be frightened by it, and he mentions it twice, so it's preying on his mind to some degree, one way or the other. I can't interpret it.

Huh.

My personal take on why his language is violent is not because of violent fantasies but of violent experiences. He was abused as a child (Gregor burned him & father covered it up), he killed his first man at the age of 12 as a squire for the Lannisters in the Sack of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion. He has trained for fighting most of his life, and has fought and killed at the commands of his masters (I assume during the Greyjoy Rebellion, certainly). There's a war going on, riots in the streets, men preparing for Stannis's attack on the city. Is it any wonder it's preying on his mind, as you aptly put it?

I think violence is practically all Sandor knows, since he has repudiated as false the ideals of knighthood he held as a child. "Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don't ever believe any different," he tells Sansa in the scene on the steps. Just moments before he said that, he told her

"So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I eed fear."

Sansa is not so stupid as some believe. Her response to his assertion is telling:

Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters.

She correctly identifies Sandor's savagery as a reaction to Gregor's abuse, that he must be the strongest and fiercest so Gregor can't hurt him again. And like an abused dog, he knows no reaction to a pat on the head but to snarl and bite.

But as far as what he actually wants, as opposed to what he has known, we really have little evidence. I think his response to Joffrey naming him to the Kingsguard is telling:

The Hound's face was hard to read. He took a long moment to consider. "Why not? I have no lands or wife to forsake, and who'd care if I did?"

It may be a stretch, but if I had to guess I'd say that lands, a wife, and someone who cares about him are in fact what Sandor would like, but has given up on.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Former Lord of Winterfell, you keep saying Sandor has no romantic interest in Sansa. I'd be interested in your answer to the OP--why does he try to help her?--with appropriate textual support.

Have I not stated an opinion on this? The most important person in Sandor's life, the one who shaped him, is Gregor. I think the mystery of why Sandor acts the way he does is answered in the nugget the author dropped about Sandor having a sister who died under mysterious circumstances. In a household with Gregor Clegane, I don't think it's much of a mystery. The reason we don't hear about her more is that we don't get a Sandor POV, and he's obviously not going to talk about it. But the author put that nugget in there for a reason, I think. And I'll point out that he's also said that it is entirely possible that Sandor and Sansa do not feel the same about each other.

So, Sandor tries to help Sansa because her situation reminds him of how he failed to protect his sister from Gregor, so he resolves to protect her. When he flees King's Landing because of the fear of fire and getting burned, leaving her behind, it is him reliving his prior failure to protect his sister.

Now personally, I think that is a much deeper emotional burden than the thrill of a romance with a vapid 13 year old. The author may choose to write the romance version, and if he does, I'd be disappointed that he'd have diminished what I think might be a superior story. Especially because Sansa and Sandor actually seeing the relationship as different adds more complexity than a sappy redux of a tv series long in the past.

Given that she's a mere child when she arrives in King's Landing, I do agree that there's no sexual interest on his part, at least at first. Later, she starts outgrowing her dresses and developing a figure, which the Hound comments on (inappropriately). In the conversation on the serpentine steps he says she looks "almost a woman", so he's at least noticing that she's growing up. I'm not asking for anyone to rate the Hound on the Perviness Scale, merely asking for clarification of evidence that there's fraternal or paternal or avuncular feelings as opposed to possible growing romantic/sexual feelings.

People can comment that a young girl is looking "all grown up" without being interested in her sexually. It may be a marker for him that her maturation puts her at greater risk (because we don't know the exact circumstances of his sister's death), or perhaps that her growing older without being abused badly is a sign that she's made it safely. If she's a proxy for his sister, that may give him a good feeling. Though he expresses that crudely because he's not going to let his great regret/guilt go public. It may also be (because there's no guarantees as to what GRRM will write in the future) that it's the initial signs of sexual/romantic relationship.

In other words, I'd never say that such a thing is not possible.

[aceluby]

Former Lord of Winterfell, you keep saying Sandor has no romantic interest in Sansa. I'd be interested in your answer to the OP--why does he try to help her?--with appropriate textual support. Given that she's a mere child when she arrives in King's Landing, I do agree that there's no sexual interest on his part, at least at first. Later, she starts outgrowing her dresses and developing a figure, which the Hound comments on (inappropriately). In the conversation on the serpentine steps he says she looks "almost a woman", so he's at least noticing that she's growing up. I'm not asking for anyone to rate the Hound on the Perviness Scale, merely asking for clarification of evidence that there's fraternal or paternal or avuncular feelings as opposed to possible growing romantic/sexual feelings.

Seriously? This has been rehashed about 20 times already in THIS thread.

[Bippy]

She correctly identifies Sandor's savagery as a reaction to Gregor's abuse, that he must be the strongest and fiercest so Gregor can't hurt him again. And like an abused dog, he knows no reaction to a pat on the head but to snarl and bite.

I think that's definitely a valid reading. What makes it less plausible to me is that he does hold his sword against her throat, and does threaten to kill her if she reveals his secret. Cycles of abuse and whatnot.

ETA: Sorry, that's very unclear--I mean, given what he did, I don't think that it's very plausible for him to be safe company for Sansa. But I absolutely agree that it's all about Gregor.

[aceluby]

It works however Westeros works. In Westeros, there are arranged marriages and marriages for love. And lovers, lots of those. Plenty of examples. Asha and Dany aspire to power and take lovers they choose (Qarl and Daario). Prince Duncan gave up his crown to marry Jenny of Oldstones. Dany was in an arranged marriage and fell in love. Lyanna spurned an arranged marriage to be with the man she loved (so many of us think). Sansa has no one to answer to now, HOWEVER she's been taken hostage and kidnapped. Forced marriages are not cool in Westeros...

Are you reading the same series? Forced marriages are standard in Westeros, especially for lords and ladies.

Lysa & Jon

Cat & Brandon

Cat & Ned

Lyanna & Robert

Cersei & Robert

Rhaegar & Elia

Sansa & Jeoffrey

Arya & Frey

Robb & Frey

But you're missing the point here. How is it one can be offended because someone suggested Sansa doesn't get to choose her partner when she never would have, Ned would have arranged her marriage no matter what because that's how things work, but then claim to be perfectly ok with a 29 yr old man to fall for a 12/13 year old girl. You don't get to have it both ways. Either you're offended and the relationship is inappropriate, or you accept both.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I'm not sure this is a desirable way. Obviously, all of us readers are late-20th/early-21st century people. GRRM is as well and he is the inventor of this particular fantasy culture, so it cannot avoid being influenced by his own modern outlook.

I believe the dragons are real when I'm reading. But they don't exist in my reality.

{...}

Our reality is all around us. I read a gritty, sexy medieval fantasy for GRRM's story, not my own.

Heh, heh. I meant that we don't (and shouldn't) depart from our present-day reality when it comes to moral or ethical questions. Not so much dragons! But I should have said so, shouldn't I have? :D

I guess I need more practice with this whole "typing while thinking" thing, lol.

[purrl1]

Have I not stated an opinion on this?

Yes, indeed you have stated an opinion on this. Quite vociferously. And yet when I ask that you provide textual support for your interpretation, you have precisely one reference: that Ned remembers a sister died under mysterious circumstances.

I am not attempting to assert, "NYAHH, you're wrong, he's totally perving on her!" That is not my point. You object strenuously to the notion of a grown man having a romantic attatchment to an adolescent girl. Fine. OK. But you're imposing a paradigm of fraternal sympathy which has limited textual evidence.

Instead, I would offer for your examination an alternative that *can* be supported--although whether it's correct is clearly open to debate.

To 21st century readers, "romantic" generally equates with "sexual". But in the High Middle Ages, there was another concept: courtly love, the idea of a knight serviteur, in service to his true lady. At its highest and most ideal, this was a chaste relationship between a lady of rank, usually married, with a knight champion in her service (not her husband). It emphasized virtuous, spiritualized love. The spiritual element in this love was often associated with service to the Virgin Mary, and the relationship between lover and beloved was compared to spiritual union between the soul and God.

The Hound has spoken disparagingly of knights "taking favors from ladies" on the serpentine steps, so we know some equivalent to courtly love exists in Westeros. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, jousting champions crowning queens of love and beauty, give evidence of this tradition. While the Hound dismisses Florian and Jonquil as "a fool and his cunt," you'll notice he's quite familiar with these songs, stories, and traditions. It is often suggested by readers that when Sandor as a child wanted his brother's toy knight, he was dreaming of being a true knight himself someday, like Bran does before his defenestration. Since then, he has become cynical and embittered.

But this silly little bird had compassion on him when he told her his fearful tale, touched his shoulder (hmmm--a touch on the shoulder is part of the knighting ceremony), and pronounced Gregor "no true knight." Throughout their interactions, their worldviews collide, her idealism and his cynicism. And the little bird isn't always wrong, either. It's obvious she needs to gain discernment about how far short of her ideals reality is; he, in turn, must come to see the worth of the chivalric ideals. There is an alternative to the Lannisters' law of the jungle. In this court full of men like Meryn Trant, who Sansa condemns to his face as "no true knight," Sansa grows into a young woman who Sandor terms "a proper little lady," (in his conversation at the Inn at the Crossroads with Gregor's men). Meanwhile, Sandor himself, in his rough and unconventional way, performs some acts of a true knight, rescuing her from the mob, and covering her with his cloak when Joffrey has her stripped before the court. They are both changing and growing.

There is even a spiritual element present. In the conversation on the steps, Sandor mocks the idea of gods. Sansa, on the other hand, is deeply religious. On the day of the battle, she goes to the sept to pray, and sings the Mother's Hymn. In fact, she prays for the Mother's mercy on Sandor:

Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

As we know, she later sings the Mother's Hymn to Sandor to calm his madness that night--and it works.

I don't think it a coincidence that the Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle finds Sandor. I'm pretty sure Sandor is the gravedigger, and that he has found some kind of faith. Perhaps not in gods, but in a certain Maiden.

I do think that what Sandor wants with Sansa is not to "fuck her bloody," but to serve her, a true knight for a true lady.

[Le Cygne]

Are you reading the same series? Forced marriages are standard in Westeros, especially for lords and ladies.

You are wrong. Those are (or were at one time) arranged marriages (by the families), not forced (in opposition to the families). Some never happened, for a reason. And he's 15 years older not 17.

Heh, heh. I meant that we don't (and shouldn't) depart from our present-day reality when it comes to moral or ethical questions. Not so much dragons! But I should have said so, shouldn't I have? :D

I guess I need more practice with this whole "typing while thinking" thing, lol.

It wasn't you. :) I was just saying how I do it. I like his love stories.

I do think that what Sandor wants with Sansa is not to "fuck her bloody," but to serve her, a true knight for a true lady.

I think he wants to fuck her, but only if she wants to fuck him, too. That's what "Look at me" was about.