Examining the Cult of the Red God~what is going on with them there Red Priests?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Ah, that darn TV series it twists your mind...

[WingedMan]

Great thread, thanks for putting together a lot of info concerning R'hllor.

Before reading this, I also thought that Volantis temple might be THE place where they (Benerro as high priest) hierarchically rule the faith and its clergy. Now I'm having second thoughts.

I have only couple of minor comments.

First, about the temples. It's mentioned in Areoh's chapter that (after Red Viper's death) that Dorne is mourning - candles were lit in septs and fires of the red priests were mentioned. There seems to be minor temple(s) in Dorne as well, like in Oldtown. And I think (not sure) it was mentioned somewhere that Myr also has a red temple.

Secondly: Azor Ahai. Is it ever stated (in Melisandre's POV) that she believes Stannis is Azor Ahai? I know she says this to others, but I also got the impression that she might just use him. In her POV she tried to see AA in fires, but 'saw only snow'. Was it explicitly mentioned that she was trying to see Stannis? Maybe she just thinks Stannis will lead her to AA? (I loaned my DWD copies to a friend, so can't check it now) I'm fairly certain there's thread about this, couldn't find it now.

About slavery. Red priests are devout followers and do not necessarily need to be slaves of the temple. It's telling that it's especially the slaves who follow R'hllor in Volantis, I think there's an anti-slavery vibe to R'hllor. I do understand that the concept of slavery/servants is not at all simple and is one of the major themes in the books.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Great thread, thanks for putting together a lot of info concerning R'hllor.

Thank you very much.

Before reading this, I also thought that Volantis temple might be THE place where they (Benerro as high priest) hierarchically rule the faith and its clergy. Now I'm having second thoughts.

I have only couple of minor comments.

First, about the temples. It's mentioned in Areoh's chapter that (after Red Viper's death) that Dorne is mourning - candles were lit in septs and fires of the red priests were mentioned. There seems to be minor temple(s) in Dorne as well, like in Oldtown. And I think (not sure) it was mentioned somewhere that Myr also has a red temple.

OOh totally missed that, must go and look

Secondly: Azor Ahai. Is it ever stated (in Melisandre's POV) that she believes Stannis is Azor Ahai? I know she says this to others, but I also got the impression that she might just use him. In her POV she tried to see AA in fires, but 'saw only snow'. Was it explicitly mentioned that she was trying to see Stannis? Maybe she just thinks Stannis will lead her to AA? (I loaned my DWD copies to a friend, so can't check it now) I'm fairly certain there's thread about this, couldn't find it now.

Again I will re read her chapter, again. My mind has gone blank on this though I think its quite likely as I can not recall her directly refering to Stanis as AA in her POV. This just gets more and more intriguing!!

About slavery. Red priests are devout followers and do not necessarily need to be slaves of the temple. It's telling that it's especially the slaves who follow R'hllor in Volantis, I think there's an anti-slavery vibe to R'hllor. I do understand that the concept of slavery/servants is not at all simple and is one of the major themes in the books.

I'm kind of thinking that the using of slaves as priests thing may have to do with the Slaves used in the mines. maybe a kind of repentance for having used thousands of people as slaves, maybe thinking the doom is a punishment. I'm not fully there with this aspect of the theory justyet though this aspect may tie in to the previous posters theory of a FM. I'm very open to others thoughts on this.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

I think that's in the series, not the book.

Melisandre burns people who've been condemned for crimes, and she wanted to burn Edric Storm, because of his royal descent. Her reason for burning seems to be to invoke magic, rather than to punish unbelievers.

I agree, she doesn't seem that obsessed with burning unbelievers just because they don't go along with R'hllor. I don't have my copy of Clash of Kings with me, but Melisandre burns the pious Lord Sunglass and a few of his sons right away, but if I remember it right, they drew their swords on everybody to try to prevent her from burning the statues of the Seven, so she had a reason [or maybe just a pretext] to burn them aside from their being "unbelievers." She's also not afraid to burn people who disagree with or act against Stannis' political and military goals, but again, she's not burning them just because they disagree on theology [Alester Florent was actually a convert].

To me, that's one of the scarier things about the Red religion--they don't have to go to war on unbelievers to prove that R'hllor is the one true god because they have the magic, sorcery, and other "acts of god" to prove it. The Old Gods turned out to be real [in some form], and I think the same is true about R'hllor.

Secondly: Azor Ahai. Is it ever stated (in Melisandre's POV) that she believes Stannis is Azor Ahai? I know she says this to others, but I also got the impression that she might just use him. In her POV she tried to see AA in fires, but 'saw only snow'. Was it explicitly mentioned that she was trying to see Stannis? Maybe she just thinks Stannis will lead her to AA? (I loaned my DWD copies to a friend, so can't check it now) I'm fairly certain there's thread about this, couldn't find it now.

I got the impression from the Melisandre chapters that she truly believes, at the start of that book, that Stannis is the one true AA Reborn [again, Thoros never mentions this shit at all, and Moqorro is coming straight from the high priest of Volantis to a different AA candidate]. But she also admits that the reader of the visions can be wrong. It's just my opinion, but I think that Melisandre believed that Stannis was AA when she met him, that the fires are starting to indicate that Jon Snow is the guy, and that she's going to have to change her endorsement and deal with the consequences.

[SeanF]

I agree, she doesn't seem that obsessed with burning unbelievers just because they don't go along with R'hllor. I don't have my copy of Clash of Kings with me, but Melisandre burns the pious Lord Sunglass and a few of his sons right away, but if I remember it right, they drew their swords on everybody to try to prevent her from burning the statues of the Seven, so she had a reason [or maybe just a pretext] to burn them aside from their being "unbelievers." She's also not afraid to burn people who disagree with or act against Stannis' political and military goals, but again, she's not burning them just because they disagree on theology [Alester Florent was actually a convert].

To me, that's one of the scarier things about the Red religion--they don't have to go to war on unbelievers to prove that R'hllor is the one true god because they have the magic, sorcery, and other "acts of god" to prove it. The Old Gods turned out to be real [in some form], and I think the same is true about R'hllor.

.

So far as I can tell, human sacrifice is a potent form of magic, in-universe.

[WingedMan]

I got the impression from the Melisandre chapters that she truly believes, at the start of that book, that Stannis is the one true AA Reborn [again, Thoros never mentions this shit at all, and Moqorro is coming straight from the high priest of Volantis to a different AA candidate]. But she also admits that the reader of the visions can be wrong. It's just my opinion, but I think that Melisandre believed that Stannis was AA when she met him, that the fires are starting to indicate that Jon Snow is the guy, and that she's going to have to change her endorsement and deal with the consequences.

I've been thinking about the perceived change of Melisandre's thinking. Is it only because we see her POV later (and not seeing her only through unjust narrator as before) or is she questioning her earlier thoughts?

[SeanF]

I've been thinking about the perceived change of Melisandre's thinking. Is it only because we see her POV later (and not seeing her only through unjust narrator as before) or is she questioning her earlier thoughts?

It's strongly implied that she wants Jon Snow to become her lover, in ADWD. She implies that it's to create another shadowbaby. But, perhaps she is starting to view him as AA reborn. Perhaps she sees herself as the reincarnation of Nissa Nissa.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

So far as I can tell, human sacrifice is a potent form of magic, in-universe.

There are definitely a few times when it seems like it works. Hard to tell though, sometimes it also seems like Melisandre sees the future in the flames and then takes credit for her magic making things happen, when they were always going to happen anyways. But you're right, human sacrifice has some measure of power in the series.

I've been thinking about the perceived change of Melisandre's thinking. Is it only because we see her POV later (and not seeing her only through unjust narrator as before) or is she questioning her earlier thoughts?

Her POV chapters start later, but when they do start, I got the feeling that she genuinely believed Stannis was AA. And I'm not sure she's questioning that belieft YET, but I got the feeling that the flames were beginning to indicate that Jon was the guy, and that she will have to heed them eventually.

It's strongly implied that she wants Jon Snow to become her lover, in ADWD. She implies that it's to create another shadowbaby. But, perhaps she is starting to view him as AA reborn. Perhaps she sees herself as the reincarnation of Nissa Nissa.

True, Melisandre wants to get it on with Jon and test her shadowbinding skills at the Wall, and I wouldn't be surprised if she later steps up to play the part of Nissa Nissa in the AAR reprise good thought.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

So I just managed to finally read all three Dunk & Egg tales. Not one single mention of the Red God nada, zip zilch. These three stories are set roughly 100 years prior to the events of AGOT and there is absolutely no awareness of R'hllor in Westeros at this time. I think this supports the belief which I and others hold that it is a relatively young religion which has been based almost solely in Essos until recently. We don't know how many years before Roberts Rebellion Thoros was sent to westeros, but one assumes fromhis age he can't have been there that long a matter of a few years perhaps certainly not decades. We also don't know when the temples at Old Town and Dorne were dedicated. But Dunk & egg travel to Dorne & Old town in the stories and there is no mention at all of the Red Temples, no mention of religion other than the seven at all actually bar a very fleeting nod to the Old Gods once only in the saying by the old gods and the new.It seems that at this time the south is truly seven following alone. With non but a handful of Old Gods families. Religion is of course not really a theme in the stories but I just wanted to note that there is no R'hllor in them and it did strike me how small the role of religions is in them.

Which definitely reaffirms that Religion is of major import in the ASOIAF series, a big part of the overall plot.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

It's strongly implied that she wants Jon Snow to become her lover, in ADWD. She implies that it's to create another shadowbaby. But, perhaps she is starting to view him as AA reborn. Perhaps she sees herself as the reincarnation of Nissa Nissa.

I'm questioning her wanting to make shadow babies with Jon, I too read that as her intention for wanting him to have sex with her. But to what end?

Who at the wall would she wish to assassinate?

Could she be intending to travel to Winterfell in order to send it after Ramsey or Roose?

it seems a bit far to travel in the snow plus of course she would need to get past the walls to birth the thing as there are magics built into the stones there as at Storms end, no?

I think she might just want him for wantings sake. He does seem to have a very alluring presence when it comes to women we are yet to see him interact with one who does not show sexual interest in him, well barring Selyse, and she does seem to be somewhat sexless and frigid. (or is Stanis just utterly hopeless in the sack and has put her off for life.)

I think she is undoubtedly beginning to believe the flames are telling her he is AA, we as readers are being led to believe that the flames point to him as AA. But What I take from that is that whilst Mel thinks Jon is AAR Benerro/Moqorro see Daenerys in their fires as AA both can not be right, I see this as indicating that R'hllor is non existent and that the flame reading is not a gift from some god. I see it as support for my theory on the Red Priests. surely if a god was truley sending the visions they would all see the same things, things which support R'hllor's aims for mankind? not random shit pertaining only to the readers own desires. They see in the flames for sure but the visions are not from some God they are not given at his discretion. The priests themselves possess the magical abillity. She see's what she wants to see, she interprets the vision to suit her own agenda. I think she see's Snow because she wants to. I don't think Jon is AAR. Anymore than Stannis is, If anyone is it is Daenerys. I think Benerro has read the flames correctly but Mellisandre struggles to read them at all in spite of what she tells herself about her skills. Her talents for magic lie in other directions the shadow binding the magic she learnt in Ashai suit her abillity more. She has repeatedly shown herself to be a poor fire reader.

[mindchap]

Is it just me or do most of these Red Priests always end up being solo acts? Like maybe they drill them young and then just set them loose.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes Mindchap I do think this is often the case. Obviously there are organised groups such as at the larger temples but you see a lot of individual priests around. I was thinking its rather like the poor brothers who wander westeros preaching to the villagers, in order to bring the seven to the masses who may otherwise never set foot in a sept.

[mindchap]

Yes Mindchap I do think this is often the case. Obviously there are organised groups such as at the larger temples but you see a lot of individual priests around. I was thinking its rather like the poor brothers who wander westeros preaching to the villagers, in order to bring the seven to the masses who may otherwise never set foot in a sept.

Or maybe they just spot the skilled ones and turn them loose. Either way they're the ones having all the impact.

[SeanF]

I'm questioning her wanting to make shadow babies with Jon, I too read that as her intention for wanting him to have sex with her. But to what end?

Who at the wall would she wish to assassinate?

Could she be intending to travel to Winterfell in order to send it after Ramsey or Roose?

it seems a bit far to travel in the snow plus of course she would need to get past the walls to birth the thing as there are magics built into the stones there as at Storms end, no?

I think she might just want him for wantings sake. He does seem to have a very alluring presence when it comes to women we are yet to see him interact with one who does not show sexual interest in him, well barring Selyse, and she does seem to be somewhat sexless and frigid. (or is Stanis just utterly hopeless in the sack and has put her off for life.)

I think she is undoubtedly beginning to believe the flames are telling her he is AA, we as readers are being led to believe that the flames point to him as AA. But What I take from that is that whilst Mel thinks Jon is AAR Benerro/Moqorro see Daenerys in their fires as AA both can not be right, I see this as indicating that R'hllor is non existent and that the flame reading is not a gift from some god. I see it as support for my theory on the Red Priests. surely if a god was truley sending the visions they would all see the same things, things which support R'hllor's aims for mankind? not random shit pertaining only to the readers own desires. They see in the flames for sure but the visions are not from some God they are not given at his discretion. The priests themselves possess the magical abillity. She see's what she wants to see, she interprets the vision to suit her own agenda. I think she see's Snow because she wants to. I don't think Jon is AAR. Anymore than Stannis is, If anyone is it is Daenerys. I think Benerro has read the flames correctly but Mellisandre struggles to read them at all in spite of what she tells herself about her skills. Her talents for magic lie in other directions the shadow binding the magic she learnt in Ashai suit her abillity more. She has repeatedly shown herself to be a poor fire reader.

The problem for Melisandre is that not only does she have to get correct visions in the fire, she also has to interpret them correctly, on the basis of limited information. Overall, I'd say her record of prediction is a reasonable one. Moqorro's job is much easier. He simply has to tell Victarion what ships he'll run into on the following day.

[SeanF]

WRT creating shadowbabies at the Wall, I agree it's unclear who she would use them against. The Others? The Boltons? The idea that she might simply be falling in love with Jon is intriguing, but I don't think it's supported in her point of view chapter.

[mindchap]

WRT creating shadowbabies at the Wall, I agree it's unclear who she would use them against. The Others? The Boltons? The idea that she might simply be falling in love with Jon is intriguing, but I don't think it's supported in her point of view chapter.

I still find it bizarre that she is fighting creatures of darkness with shadows. That just seems too anti Rhllor to me. That would be kind of like Others using creatures of light.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Great thoughts guys.

True Mel comes over as a flake because she misinterperets her visions but YES Moqorro is not trying to read as deeply into his flames meerly relaying factual information which he has seen there, this ship that ship, You would find me on the tenth day etc. Much easier than trying to decide who a random girl in grey is or trying to decide whom AAR may be based upon a vision of a certain island.

I never thought about it like this before! I guess my dislike for R'hllor and Mellisandre in general clouds my feelings about her abilities at times.

And YES how wrong does it sound to use Shadows to do the work of the lord of light, that has always grated on me somewhat. It just seems wrong. Square peg round hole type of wrong? Which does make me think she is not necessarily the good little R'hllorist priest she makes out she is? Or indeed that the red REligion is not as good or as light as it presents itself to be?

Now I wasn't thinking she was falling in love with him more that she is sexually attracted to him, in the way some men can make you wet with just a wiff of their sweat or the way they carry themselves you know.

Hmmmm.

[SeanF]

Several people have floated the idea that Melisandre is a heretic or renegade in the eyes of the other Red Priests. They seem to be very heavily invested in Daenerys as being AA reborn.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Several people have floated the idea that Melisandre is a heretic or renegade in the eyes of the other Red Priests. They seem to be very heavily invested in Daenerys as being AA reborn.

I think they may well have a point. I certainly am interested to see how things pan out for her on that front.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

WRT creating shadowbabies at the Wall, I agree it's unclear who she would use them against. The Others? The Boltons? The idea that she might simply be falling in love with Jon is intriguing, but I don't think it's supported in her point of view chapter.

Maybe it's just me, but given Melisandre's positive attitude towards Jon Snow, I'm fairly certain any shadows she cast would be targeting Bowen Marsh, Othell Yarwyck, and the other assassins. One thing I'm not sure of is whether Marsh/Yarwyck et al were in league with Selyse and the Queen's Men--it seems too coincidental that the attempt on Jon's life and the attempt on Wun Wun's life happened at the same time, but that's a topic for a different thread. My bet would be on Melisandre date-raping an unconscious Jon Snow or seducing the vulnerable Devan Seaworth, and sending the shadow out against the turncloak NW officers.

Several people have floated the idea that Melisandre is a heretic or renegade in the eyes of the other Red Priests. They seem to be very heavily invested in Daenerys as being AA reborn.

I think there's a strong chance that Melisandre has gone rogue. [One of] the Red Temple sent Thoros to Aerys' court, and Volantis sent Moqorro to Daenerys, but it seems a lot less likely that a temple would send Melisandre to Stannis and encourage or allow her to do all the crazy shit she's done. But I think this might be related to the discussion we were having earlier, about the loose association between the Red temples, and the possibility that they're not all on the same page. If that's the case, it seems even more likely that Mel could get away with declaring her own AA and going all-in to help him gain the Iron Throne. Also, like Mindchap & Weirwoods' Eyes suggested, it does seem like they allow their best priests & priestesses to move about in the world with some independence. I mean, even if Melisandre got busted by another priest or temple, she's still converted a king and hundreds of his followers to the religion, and has "proved" R'hllor's power in a lot of ways [even if some of them are shady]--it would be hard to accuse her of damaging or disobeying the Red faith with a record like that.