Examining the Cult of the Red God~what is going on with them there Red Priests?

[SeanF]

I'm not sure that every form of magic that's studied in Asshai is evil. Marwyn and Mirri studied healing there, for example. Godswives seem pretty benign.

But, if you do want to study evil magic, without disruption, it seems that Asshai is the place to go.

Shadowbinding is clearly regarded as evil by the Citadel. Without knowing the details, I should think it involves the summoning and invocation of demons, spirits, the souls of the dead, and binding them to one's will. Black alchemists (presumably poisoners), torturers, practitioners of human sacrifice; necromancers, can all perfect their arts without being disturbed by the authorities. Whereas magic faded in Westeros and other parts of the world, after the Doom of Valryia, and the death of dragons, it looks as if it has always flourished in Asshai.. The use of magic also seems to have the effect of killing off other living things in the vicinity

I don't know if you've read Scott Lynch's short story A Year and a Day in Old Threnadayne, but Threnadayne is a city run by magicians, and a very nasty place it is. That's what I had in mind when I read about Asshai. It also read like Minas Morgul from LOTR.

I imagine that Mel has both perpetrated, and suffered, some horrendous things during the course of her career.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Once again SeanF I am in total agreement, :agree:

The description of Asshai made me feel very much that the magic is poisoning the city. I have not read that story but I think I can imagine what you are getting at well enough.

I thought the fact Asshai is

built entirely of the black greasy stone, was particularily interesting and mysterious. That shit has got to be magical? in some form.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

It seems to me, that rather than it being a religion which has sprung entirely from the Doom, it was always a religion which was practised in valyria,but which has retained followers following the doom and it has proliferated rapidly in the last couple of hundred years, having clung on in the former Valyrian held cities of Essos. It seems that the religion is very much wrapped up in blood and fire magic. and that they use both magic and trickery to convince people of the power of their god.

Obviously we know the prophesy is in scrolls in Asshai, but as I've previously pointed out Asshai holds much arcane knowledge and its quite possible that this scroll is simply one of many gathered there. Certainly we learn that most cultures have their own explanation for the end of the Long Night, and that AA is not the only name people have for this hero.

Certainly there is nothing in the world book to suggest R'hllor is the main religion of Asshai, or even practised there beyond the presence of Red Priests along side countless other practitioners from many other religions and cults of Planetos.

[The Reckoner]

Mel had sex with Stannis. Doesn't that count as sexual congress with a demon?

[rebel to conform]

I am starting to think that all (unnatural?) magic on Planetos (others, dragons, glass candles, shadow babies, etc.) can be traced back to the same source. To the same point, there could be "natural" magic (Children of the Forest, wargs) which co-exist, or they could even be one and the same. Rather than a good/evil dichotomy to magic, I think of it more of a Pandora's box situation. At some point in history, magic was unleashed and has spread to the far corners of the planet. Some facets are understood and controlled by men (the glass candles of the Citadel, the R'hllor-centric practices, Targaryen dragons) to various degrees throughout history.

What this means is that magic in the world of Ice and Fire is a catalyst for the story, which is at heart based on the actions and decision of man, but ultimately misunderstood and not rooted in either good or evil.

[SeanF]

What this means is that magic in the world of Ice and Fire is a catalyst for the story, which is at heart based on the actions and decision of man, but ultimately misunderstood and not rooted in either good or evil.

Magic can be used for good or bad purposes.

I suppose the discussion about Asshai opens up the question whether some forms of magic are inherently evil, or does it depend on the ends to which they're put.

Take Daenerys and Stannis. They have passionate supporters and detractors on this forum and elsewhere (and I should think Dany is overwhelmingly popular among general readers and viewers of the Show).

Both, however, have carried out ritual human sacrifice, burning people alive in order to hatch dragons (in Dany's case) or to obtain favourable weather (in Stannis' case). A case can be made that their victims "deserved" their punishments, but ritual sacrifice is surely something more than the implementation of normal criminal justice. Arguably, one is invoking/empowering some malevolent entity by doing this. Plenty of people in our world support capital punishment. But, very few would support capital punishment if convicted criminals were being sacrificed to Satan, I should think,

even if the means of execution was relatively humane.

Melisandre believes very much that the end justifies the means. Any form of magic, however ghastly, is legitimate when used to fight the Great Other. We don't really get a very clear idea of what Dany and Stannis think of such magic, however.

[rebel to conform]

Magic can be used for good or bad purposes.

Exactly. Moreover, the delineation of "good" or "evil" can only be applied by human thought, so without men magic isn't inherently good or evil, it just is. When it comes to ritual sacrifice, we are dealing with magic used only for perceived "good" purpose without concern for potential "evil" purpose - a selfish use of magic. Because magic isn't intrinsically good or evil, there isn't a necessary consequence to performing a ritual sacrifice, other than those imposed by fellow humans. Notice that the followers of R'hllor use magic to either impress and convert followers or destroy non-believers.

[SeanF]

Exactly. Moreover, the delineation of "good" or "evil" can only be applied by human thought, so without men magic isn't inherently good or evil, it just is. When it comes to ritual sacrifice, we are dealing with magic used only for perceived "good" purpose without concern for potential "evil" purpose - a selfish use of magic. Because magic isn't intrinsically good or evil, there isn't a necessary consequence to performing a ritual sacrifice, other than those imposed by fellow humans. Notice that the followers of R'hllor use magic to either impress and convert followers or destroy non-believers.

I'd take a lot of persuading that the sacrifice of an unwilling human victim, by means of live burning, could ever be considered "good" magic, even if the reason for doing it was good; or the outcome was good; or the victim was a criminal.

But, I'm not at all sure if that's the view of the author. We do get the points of view of people like Jon Snow, Davos, and Asha Greyjoy, who express varying degrees of disgust. But, Daenerys is Martin's second favourite character; her story at the end of AGOT ends on a triumphant note, straight after she's burned Mirri alive.