Examining the Cult of the Red God~what is going on with them there Red Priests?

[Dagda]

There would still be problems with the use of blood magic. The way Dany gets her dragons with the use of blood magic is well with in keeping with the practices of the Red Crew. The is diametrically opposed to the way that the Faceless Men operate. I'm not saying that the Faceless bunch are omnipotent, but they have a linked network that would keep them informed.

Blood magic is blood magic, either the Freehold or the Red bunch.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

no one outside of Dany's original Khalasar knows how MMD was burnt alive and teh eggs hatched. I'm sorry but I really do not buy the idea many have that the FM are everywhere and know all. It's not realistic at all. spy's sure but not out in the grass sea in a group of horse folk. Just no.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

plus I doubt even Dany has grasped that MMD 's burning influenced teh hatching. I certainly don't think the Dothraki noted it or Jorah has even thought about it beyond HOLYSHITDRAGONS!!!

[Dagda]

I wasn't really pointing to Dany as magnate of the Faceless Men, just that the magic corresponds to the Red Crew, and it would draw their attention to her as AA.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The fact she is a Targaryan ( its strongly implied AA & TPtWP are the same prophesy) with DRAGONS and is known far and wide as Daenarys the UNBURNT, who's name includes a description of her birth on DRAGONSTONE the place of salt & smoke (acording to Mel a red priest) aka STORMBORN.That there was a RED COMMET BURNING across the sky when she first started to show up on the global radar, and is freeing slaves (the bulk of the red faiths congregation and the origin of the vast majority of its priests.) might just have been what sealed it for them..

[Dagda]

Not disagreeing with that at all. It also helps that the Targs have an antipathy toward the Old Blood in Volantis.

The disagreement is on the age and development of the religion, a part from the Asshai connection, and that it's a creation post Doom. It doesn't fit what we have been told of it, and there is no reaction to it by it's natural enemies if your theory is correct.

The slave connection would hold true, but we have been shown that other slaves have risen to rank in the Essos cities.

( by the way, Heresy 104 will pop up soon and deal with prophesy. Stop by, it might be something you will like. )

[jblair]

Is it just me or do most of these Red Priests always end up being solo acts? Like maybe they drill them young and then just set them loose.

If they don't send them out, they'll never get enough xp to level up.

[SeanF]

plus I doubt even Dany has grasped that MMD 's burning influenced teh hatching. I certainly don't think the Dothraki noted it or Jorah has even thought about it beyond HOLYSHITDRAGONS!!!

Dany told MMD that only death can pay for life, and planned the hatching in considerable detail. She was well aware that burning a human being was required to make the spell work.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

So she did. My bad... I had forgotten that.

Still don't think the fact she burned MMD will have clicked as the cause with the Dothraki or have become public knowledge that the FM could learn, we never hear anyone mention MMD when they talk about Dany & the Dragons & we hear a lot of people discussing it all across Planetos

Its not "yea she burnt this maegi alive in order to hatch the eggs".

As a rule those talking of Daenarys and her Dragons seem to speak of them as if there is something Truly amazing about Daenarys herself, no one says yea she used blood magic. They are in awe that she hatched 3 dragons and call her the unburnt implying there is something special about her. No doubt all part of tht Dany publicity train ;)

[Dagda]

Let's say that the Red Crew is a memory based on the Fall of Valyria as you theorize. Where are the historical linkages to actual written histories? The Doom was only 500 yrs ago, so for a religion to grow around the Doom there would be historical rocks, people in written history, as pointers to the actual events. Take Christianity for example. There are actual people that can be linked outside the canon.

There doesn't seem to be anything.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I have put everything I am basing the theory on in the thread, you only need to read it. If you don't think there is enough fair enough But my theory is sort of based off of GRRM wanting it to be a surprise for the reader which has multiple hints when you look back over the text, you know in the way that he forshadows and hints at a lot of the things which come up in series. So if I am right, then he's hardly going to have written in anything so obvious as say a shared religious text.....oh but wait there is that AAR prophesy which the red lot are obsessed with and which seems strikingly similar to the Prince that was Promised prophesy the Targs brought with them from Valaryia. And which Aemon and Mel seem to talk about as interchangeable....and there is the mysteriously similar architecture used in Old Valaryia, on Dragonstone and the Red Temples.

can you further axplain Historical Rocks, People in written History, as pointers to the actual events. take Christianity for example there are people that can be linked outside the Canon.

I can be a bit dim sometimes, I'm just struggling with this sentence a bit. :)

[Dagda]

Sorry about the delay .... Life gets interesting sometimes. ;)

With a 400 yr old religion, one would see historical references that you could date from other sources, such as "in the reign of blah-blah of blah-blah, AA traveled to Volantis. " doesn't seem to be anything in the writing to presume those time markers, and they would be so easy to weave into the story, it makes more sense that the story is older, with no reference markers like that .... But as with everything in these books, this is still just speculation on speculation.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Ok so on thronecast just now Elio just said the Lord of Light religion is from Essos. Not exactly book Canon I know, But I'll add it to my list of reasons to believe r'hllor is Essosi and not Ashai'i.

Dagda; I see what you mean now. I actually don't think AA was a contemporary to the birth of the Red Faith in say the way Jesus or Mohamed were. But Is in fact a much much older prophesy along side TPTWP and the LH I think in fact that all or some of these prophesies originate from the same events. And that the Red Faith sprung up and took the prophesy as a fundamental pillar of their faith. The religion wouldn't have and texts saying AA travelled to such and such a place in the reign of King so and so, because by the time the Red Priests started taking an interest in him he was long dead.. thousands of years long dead.

[Sword of Nightfall]

Where does Quaithe fit into all of this?

She's from Asshai, and I've always interpreted the red lacquer mask as at least a connection to the Red God.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I really don't think she is associated with R'hllor. It sems that the Ashai'i shadow binders are a distinct sect of their own.

But I do think that as she is a shadow binder and we see both Mellisandre & MMD using shadow magic in book that again this is just a magic which can be learnt and is not actually anything to do with an actual god.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

OK, so obviously for me I was very interested when I got the world book to see how much info we would get on R'hllor, and of course how that info would effect my theory that the religion has sprung from the fall of Valaryia, with R'hllor possibly having been one of the many gods of Valeryia.

So this is what is in the world book in regards to Red Priests.

This on the long night.

"It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valeryia, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesey his return."

this on the Doom of Valeryia.

"Others speak of the priests of R'hllor calling down the fire of their God in queer rituals."

This on religions in Valeryia.

"Many Valyrians worshipped more than one god, turning to different deities according to their needs; more, it is said, worshipped non at all. Most regarded freedom of faith as a hallmark of any truly advanced civilisation. Yet to some, this plethora of gods was a source of continuing grievance. "The man who honours all gods honours non at all," a prophet of the Lord of Light, R'hllor the Red, once famously declared."

This on the quarrelsome sisters Myr, Lys & Tyrosh.

"Each has its own gods, too - although the red priesthood of R'hllor holds sway in all of them and often wields considerable power.

This on Volantis

"Many of the Old Blood of Volantis still keep the old gods of Valyria, but their faith is found primarily within the Black Walls. Without, the Red God R'hllor, is favoured by many, especially among the slaves and freedmen of the city. The temple of the Lord of Light in Volantis is said to be the greatest in all the world; in

​remnants of the dragonlords, Achmaester Gramyon claims that it is fully three times bigger than the great Sept of Baelor. All who serve within this mighty temple are slaves, bought as children and trained to become priests, temple prostitutes, or warriors; these wear the flames of their fiery god as tattoos upon their faces.Of the warriors, little enough is said, though they are called The Fiery Hand, and they never number more or less than one thousand members."

This of Braavos

"The Lord of Light, red R'hllor, has a great temple on Braavos as well, for his worshippers have grown ever more numerous in the past hundred years."

This on the legend of the long night

"How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior - known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser - arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world."

This on Asshai

"The dark city by the shadow is steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers,inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat, and the Pale Child, and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, were nothing is forbidden.Here they are free to practice their spells without restraint or censure, conduct their obscene rights, and fornicate with demons if that is their desire."

I wanted to add in this side note on religions in Valeryia,

"Some scholars have suggested that the dragonlords regarded all faiths as equally false, believing themselves to be more powerful than any god or goddess. They looked upon priests and temples as relics of a more primitive time, though useful for placating "slaves, savages and the poor." with promises of a better life to come. Moreover, a multiplicity of gods helped to keep their subjects divided and lessened the chances of their uniting under the banner of a single faith to overthrow their overlords. Religious tolerance was to them a means of keeping the peace in the lands of long summer."

So from these mentions of r'hllor in the world book, I feel its looking increasingly likely that yes r'hllor was one of the many gods worshipped in Valeryia. And that the religion definitely does not originate from Asshai. But merely that they hold with a prophesy which can be found in that city, that the great hero of eh long night was called Azor Ahai. That it is not the main religion of that place is patently clear, the red priests get naught but a passing mention in a group of various other nefariously regarded practitioners of varying faiths and orders. Indeed it seems that the main area of worship is indeed Essos around the free cities which were previously Valeryian outposts. I think my idea that the main Temple is in Lys may be wrong, I think it is clear the Volantis Temple is the main one. I found it especially interesting that it is mentioned in a book entitled

remnants of the dragonlords.

I think this info from the world book backs up my theory that it is a religion of Valeryia which has sprung into greater popularity since the Doom.

[Hippocras]

I would phrase it differently: Not a religion of Valyria itself, but a religion of the subjugated regions that made up the Valyrian empire. It is a faily key difference IMO. From what you posted the Valyrians themselves never followed R'hllor, only peoples they basically colonized.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

yes, sorry I should make that clearer. yes I think it was a god worshipped in Valeryia and her various outposts. Not necessarily a god worshipped by teh Valyrians. Though I don't hesitate to imagine that some will have at times said a prayer to him.

I think its also worth pointing out in regard to the assumption previously made that the Braavosi would not allow a temple of a god of Valeryia in teh City, well we find out in the World book

that they did, and they even had pure blooded Valyrians in the city as some of those who escaped with them were Valyrian outcasts and criminals.

[SeanF]

The Volantis reference confirms that Melisandre started as a Temple Prostitute in that city, in my view.

The Asshai reference indicates that at least some of the Red Priests study the occult. I imagine that Melisandre was sent there by her superiors specifically to train as a sorcerer and shadow-binder, after showing talents in that direction.

I could imagine that part of that training would have involved sexual congress with demons

It would seem that Melisandre is still, strictly speaking, a slave.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Absolutely agree SeanF. I think its implied in that quote re Asshai that these sects listed practice some really dodgy shit, and go to Asshai specifically to do so as it is not tolerated elsewhere.

That mel is still a slave and that her "order" are those red priests who do some nefarious, scary, atrocious shit seems increasingly likely.