Examining the Cult of the Red God~what is going on with them there Red Priests?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm inclined to think that R'hllor sprung up from the remnants of Valeryia AFTER the Doom, I know Valeryia had its own religion before the Doom we are given the names of 3 of its gods in the Targs dragons. So they had at least 3 gods, where as R'hllor is a single god who's followers are adamant there is no other god and all other deity's are agents of The Great Other. Not The Others who are beyond the wall in Westeros The Great Other. Now I'm certain that Mellisandre is convinced the Others are connected to the red gods great other but there is no textural evidence that they are. Mel is an unreliable POV. She is convinced Stannis is AA because of a vision of Dragonstone, it appears she simply went there and latched onto the guy with the most authority there.

My idea is that after the Doom survivors created R'hllor.

They are concerned with the dark and terrors and eschew other gods and religions, maybe its a case of god bought down his wrath on Valeriya for worshiping false gods.

I think they latched onto the Targs talk of TpTWP. Because to them it seems the Targs were given a vision of the Doom in order to allow them to get out before the destruction. Kind of like Noah was fore warned of the flood. This is why the main body of the church seems to be going with Dany being AA. Mel says she is part of a specific order. And she does seem to be acting out of sync with the main body of the church.

I find Thoros interesting too he seems a good guy, unlike other priests we have come across he seems to genuinely want to help the smallfolk and has not mentioned burning people.

He was always less devout than other priests maybe he just isn't keen on burning people and so given that to him it appears R'hllor has chosen him as his instrument without ever having burned anyone. Maybe he's just thinking well there is no need for all that nasty burning folk alive they harped on about at the Temple after all.

Another thing which struck me reading What a Flayed man holds post. They all emphasise that their abillity is not their own but that they only achieve what the red god wishes them too as they are merely his instruments. I think this reinforces my belief that they are in fact inherently magical people who's abilities have been honed by the Red Temple. The church goes to great lengths to ensure its priests are believers and by reinforcing the idea that it is R'hllor who is allowing them to have these gifts it takes there power from them, they are trained as children because children are easily molded and tend to believe what those in power tell them. The Temple buys children screeens them for magical abillity those who are go to train as priests the collateral become warriors and prostitutes. Those children are trained in magical arts but told it is not you who is special R'hllor is using you as his instrument, They are trained to use parlor tricks too in order to provide a visually awing performance for the smallfolk whom they are instructed to convert.They are then sent out into the world to bring the word of R'hllor to the masses. Some are chosen to try to convert leaders as Thoros was sent to Aerys.

I can't remember the text stating that R'hllor came out of Ashai can someone show me where it says this?

[mindchap]

Could the rise of the red religion coincide with the rise of the Others? I ask because there seem to be more folks on this topic that know more about them than I do and it's pretty certain that the dragons didn't wake the Others so could it have been something in the red religion?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

hmm, I don't think so the Red religion seems to have been around a while. I think it is young relative to other religions in ASOIAF but I think it is well established by the time Dany hatches the Dragons. There is a priest in Drogo's manse and Illyrio talks as if R'hllorists have been in control in Pentos for some time. I'm inclined to think its about 3-400 years old at its very root. It is said that the Doom hapened 100 years before Aegons landing so I'm guessing that they R'hllorists began in the aftermath of the Doom (the Century of blood.)at first a tiny band of people and that it has been slowly growing ever since. Interesting how Tyrion describes the HUGE red temple in Volantis:Prior to the construction of the temple, the site was a great plaza. The date of its construction is not known. The temple is an enormity of pillars, steps, buttresses, bridges, domes, and towers flowing into one another as if they had all been chiseled from one colossal rock. It looms high like Aegons high hill. A hundred hues of red, yellow, gold, and orange meet and meld in the temple walls, dissolving one into the other like clouds at sunset.The temple’s slender towers twist ever upward, frozen flames dancing as they reach for the sky. Fire turned to stone, Tyrion thinks.

Reminisant of how Dragonstone is constructed using ancient Valaerian techniques of molding rock like clay.

[SeanF]

Could the rise of the red religion coincide with the rise of the Others? I ask because there seem to be more folks on this topic that know more about them than I do and it's pretty certain that the dragons didn't wake the Others so could it have been something in the red religion?

I'm inclined to think so - or vice versa. Their religion pits R'hllor against the Great Other. They are polar opposites who are in eternal conflict with each other, but in some way depend on each other.

The strengthening of magic, the faith of the Red God, the birth of dragons, and the return of the Others are all linked, iMHO.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

OK so it seems I am becoming rather obsessed with the roots of the Red God.

Been reading the Wiki, (yes I know its not Cannon.) The known temples are

Pentos

Bravos

Lys

Selorhys

Volantis

Oldtown.

We know Old town and Bravos are token temples as both these places are described as containing temples to all known gods due to the high quantity of sailors who frequent the ports.

Volantis's Temple is described by Tyrion and I quoted this decription in my previous post, it is Huge and awe inspiring.

the temple at Selorhys is also described by tyrion.

"To their right a nightfire burns outside a temple of red stone. A priest in scarlet robes stands on the temple balcony, haranguing a small crowd that had gathered around the flames."

Doesn't seem to be a big or important temple.

of the Temple in Lys it tells us.

"According to semi-canon sources, one of the greatest temples of R'hllor stands in Lys. It is also home to a native love goddess" does anyone know what that source is?

I'm intrigued that Lys is the place where the blood of Old Valyria still runs strong(after the fragmented people of Valeryia fled the doom.) as we are told repeatedly that Lyseni have Valerian looks. It seems as though R'hllor is a very big religion in Lys, and the only other mentioned in relation to it is an ancient love goddess.

We are also told that Lys is famed for its Alchemists, powders that make flame coloured, rise high into the sky etc are used by Red Priests we are told this by Mel and we witness via Tyrion watching Benerro in Volantis. Alchemists tricks perhaps.

All we are told of the temple in Pentos is that it is large, and we know the religion is wide spread through Illyrio's words to Dany

Interestingly we are not told anything about the religions of Ashai in the Wiki.or the App. We are told that they have there ownlanguage and that Mel prays to R'hllor in this language then Valyrian and then the common tongue. We are told that Ashai holds large amounts of Arcane knowledge, possibly even Dragonlore Ancient books of Ashai record (note theyrecord it, it does not say explicitly that it origionates from Ashai.) the AA prophesy.

Ashai is a land full of magic and it is said that these magics are openly practiced. we are given the impression that Ashai is a very long way from westeros as repeatedly the two are used to indicate the extreem ends of the world. Also in Pentos Illyrio tells Tyrion that the ship he cam on is going to Ashai and will take at least 2 years before it returns.

I found this quote very interesting it kind of implies Mel is not origionally from Ashai after all

At the Wall Melisandre notes that she is stronger here, stronger even than in Asshai. She also recalls a lesson she had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer.

Perhaps she is not Ashaian in origin but from elsewhere I believe she was a child taken into slavery, originally called Melony she talks of her training being painful and she mentions her order, I think she perhaps went to Ashai to learn the dark arts they have there, no other Red priest we've had contact with practices Shadow babies? did she learn this in Ashai.

[SeanF]

I don't think Mel is a native of Asshai either. Given the reference to "her tears were of flame" I'd say she began her career at the Great Temple of Volantis, as a Temple prostitute. She was bought as a slave by the Temple, and at some point, she must have impressed them with her abilities sufficiently to become a priestess. I don't know whether she had already been sold into slavery, prior to entering the service of the Temple. The TV series isn;t canon, but in one episode she refers to being beaten, kicked, and starved as a slave, although I think it's very unlikely that the Temple would treat her in that way, but a former owner might do.

Presumably, she went to study shadow-binding at Asshai, after having completed her training as a priestess.

[mindchap]

OK so it seems I am becoming rather obsessed with the roots of the Red God.

Perhaps she is not Ashaian in origin but from elsewhere I believe she was a child taken into slavery, originally called Melony she talks of her training being painful and she mentions her order, I think she perhaps went to Ashai to learn the dark arts they have there, no other Red priest we've had contact with practices Shadow babies? did she learn this in Ashai.

I think her "shadow babies" are actually along the same lines of Thoros' resurrections. Dondarrion says every time Thoros brings him back there is less of him, just like after the shadow babies Stannis seems diminished if that makes any sense to anybody. Like maybe some people have more life in them than others and that resurrecting takes some of that life, and shadow babies do the same just not killing them first.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think she was definatly a slave, nice catch with the her tears were of flame bit. I wonder if we'll see a temple prostitute at any point with flaming tears tattoo'd on her face. Or if Mel's glamour will eventually be dropped somehow.

She refers to her training as painful in her POV chapter in ADWD. I'm inclined to believe that all manor of abuses are used to mould the slave children into good little R'hllorists. I think those with abillity are used as priests, I wonder if the reason Mel says she had to work damned hard at her art is because she wwas determined to escape the prostitution and so practiced and practiced in order to be elevated to Priest once she had trained as a priest going on to join a specific order where she traveled to Ashai to study further magical arts.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think her "shadow babies" are actually along the same lines of Thoros' resurrections. Dondarrion says every time Thoros brings him back there is less of him, just like after the shadow babies Stannis seems diminished if that makes any sense to anybody. Like maybe some people have more life in them than others and that resurrecting takes some of that life, and shadow babies do the same just not killing them first.

ooh interesting thought. she certainly seems to imply that Stannis has been depleted by her shadow babies.

[mindchap]

ooh interesting thought. she certainly seems to imply that Stannis has been depleted by her shadow babies.

And Davos seems to notice that too, when he is released from the dungeons. He notes that his bones are like snakes under his skin, or something to that effect.

I'll try and find the quote. Here:

Storm of Swords:

“So I see.” Stannis wore a grey wool tunic, a dark red mantle, and a plain black leather belt from which his sword and dagger hung. A red-gold crown with flame-shaped points encircled his brows. The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm’s End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king’s close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now the bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face.

Yet when he saw Davos, a faint smile brushed his lips. “So the sea has returned me my knight of the fish and onions.”

[SeanF]

I think she was definatly a slave, nice catch with the her tears were of flame bit. I wonder if we'll see a temple prostitute at any point with flaming tears tattoo'd on her face. Or if Mel's glamour will eventually be dropped somehow.

She refers to her training as painful in her POV chapter in ADWD. I'm inclined to believe that all manor of abuses are used to mould the slave children into good little R'hllorists. I think those with abillity are used as priests, I wonder if the reason Mel says she had to work damned hard at her art is because she wwas determined to escape the prostitution and so practiced and practiced in order to be elevated to Priest once she had trained as a priest going on to join a specific order where she traveled to Ashai to study further magical arts.

My impression is that being a slave of R'hllor is considered to be very different to being the chattel slave of another human being. Benerro, the High Priest of Volantis, still wears his slave tatoos. I don't know if that means he is still a slave, or whether he simply never had them removed. For all we know, Melisandre herself may, strictly speaking, still be a slave. But, I imagine that, rather like the early Christians, followers of the Red God don't consider the distinction between slave and free to be important in the sight of their god.

However, if Melisandre was forced to work as a prostitute as a child, then that would be very good reason to want to escape to something better.

[shearstone]

Could it be possible that the Valyrians adopted R'hllor and that contributed to the downfall? Rome changed its religion after all and although I'm probably mistaken but was it ever explained why Aegon's family was on Dragonstone and avoided the doom? Perhaps (Crackpot) they didn't convert to R'hllor and so left although my argument obviously falls apart when Aegon converts to the seven but this was a 100years after the doom so perhaps he didn't care as much as his ancestors did.

[mindchap]

The red temple buys slave children and turns them into priests, prostitutes, or soldiers.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This^^ Mel maybe was originally a R'hllor temple prostitute, hence your fab catch of her fiery tears, we are told that prostitute slaves have tear tattoo's and that Red god warrior tattoo's have feiry hand tattoo's and their name is the fiery hands. I think its quite plausable that those slaves who are allocated as Temple Prostitutes would be tattoo'd with tears of flame.

I think they are technically slaves but that clearly a red priest commands respect where an ordinary slave does not and of course they have freedom to travel independantly of their masters. To give a slave that much freedom one must be pretty certain they will not simply rebel and abandon the religion. A tattoo on the face is a good way of ensuring everyone knows this person is a slave and so making it very difficult to escape slavery a red priest who abandons their calling while away from the temple is worth a ransom from the temple, they buy back slaves of R'hllor. Any sellsword or opportunist could kidnap you and collect themselves a handsome reward if you caught. Mel I am pretty certain covers her tattoo's and her aging appearance with a glamour in order to escape the stigma of having originally been a prostitute and to appear beautiful, beauty does give a woman a certain power over men and Mel is all about the power.

[Winterz]

I wouldn't be so quick to underrate Melisandre. She might not be much of a flames' reader but she still spawns freaking shadow babies and shoots fire bolts from her hands.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Sorry I didn't explicitly say that I think the children are beaten(kind of the way domsetic abuse and a violent childhood keeps people trapped and bound to their abuser. To ensure they grow up feeling unable to abandon the religion and they are brainwashed to believe their magical abillity is from R'hllor. They are nothing but Slaves of R'hllor and he uses them as his instruments.

Yes It does seem that shadow babies take a significant toll on a man. She's pretty obsessed with making them too as she wants Davos and Jon to help her create more. I hope we never see that happen. eurgh!

[SeanF]

Mel may be glamouring herself, but a glamour doesn't change you internally. We get no evidence from Mel's point of view that she suffers from old age in any way, so I'm inclined to think that her appearance is real, but her youth and beauty (along with physical vigour) have been unnaturally prolonged as a result of her magical experiments.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm not underrating her at all she has displayed very real magical abilities. I think that the flame reading just doesn't come as naturally to her as it does to others, she seems to have honed her skills in Ashai and seems to excell in the arts she learnt there. Shadow binding and the burning of Orrel's Eagle.

I totally missed the her tears were of flame reference and had assumed that she had been chosen as a priest from the off but then SEANF pointed that out and it seems logical that she was originally a prostitute. She herself says she had to work hard at her arts, I think if I was a child prostitute and others around me were becoming priests who garnered more respect had more freedom and did n't get screwed by multiple people in the name of God I'd work damned hard to shift my place at the temple too.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

no she doesn't suffer old age, I only think she is old because she seems to think that certain things were very long ago. Maybe I'm wrong and she's a lot younger than I have her pegged as.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

the red hair that is unnaturally red not the red of say ygritte and tormund etc and the red eyes are what makes me think she's altering her appearance quite a bit.