[BOOK SPOILERS] TV Series Improvements on the Story?

[Dark_Sister]

Anyone who has read the books shouldn't much like any substantive changes to the story, or the characters, because it often leads to confusion or outright contradictions - something that's dealt with at length in Elio and Linda's analyses of the show on YouTube. (Elio and Linda also founded and maintain this site.) Generally speaking, changing the script is like trying to out-write GRRM, and so far taht hasn't worked out too well for the show runners.

That having been said, they do once in a while write a scene that doesn't change the story but nicely condenses chapter after chapter of character development into a minute or two on screen, and it works. One excellent example is the scene in season 2 where we first see Tywin Lannister. He's in a hunting camp skinning a stag and having a conversation with Jaime, and it's just excellent. You know what kind of men Tywin and Jaime are at the end of that, and it changes nothing from the books.

ETA: My mistake, the scene was from season 1, episode 7

I don't understand why reading the books means you should hate every change the show makes, I've read the books and I don't care about the changes, why exactly should I get upset?

The books are way too big to adapt them exactly as they are, they have too many plots and characters, the amount of money and time they would need to show everything would be too much for any tv show, and the viewers would probably have trouble following all the plots and characters.

As long as they follow the main plots I don't have a problem with the changes.

I loved Ned saying Baelor to Yoren, and I enjoyed the Arya/Tywin scenes, they have some of the best acting the show has ever had. I also loved the scene where Arya kills the Frey guy, and expanding Margaery's role has been a very good choice IMO. And the Cersei/Robert scene in season 1 was very good too.

[Daske]

Yeah, this cracked me up... "Generally speaking, changing the script is like trying to out-write GRRM, and so far taht hasn't worked out too well for the show runners.".

The showrunners have created one of the most admired and talked about shows on television - I think it's worked out pretty well for them so far!

There have been misteps of course, but most of the added dialogue has been great. Some of it really moving, and at other times laugh out loud funny. GRRM doesn't have a monopoly on good writing. There's no reason why his lines can't be added to or improved on by mere mortals when an opportunity arises. Arya/Tywin and Jaime/Tywin are perfect examples.

[Colonel Green]

Made even more silly by their mandatory ten episodes a season, every scene is 3 minutes long mentality as opposed to having every episode only focus on specific characters more in depth and there being more episodes. But hey, this one could be a budget reason. (I don't know if there's some HBO contract that REQUIRES ten episodes, no more or less)

The creators have been quite clear that ten episodes a year is as much as they can physically produce.

[Onna Lewyys]

Beyond her introductory scene, name one example of Talisa being a "TOUGH GRRLZ"... I'll wait.

I'm just going to jump in here for a bit because this a huge peeve of mine with the show. Talisa's very existence makes her a "tough grrl." She is a foreign battlefield nurse somehow thriving in a world where (1) foreigners are generally disdained, (2) women traveling during wartime are at a huge, constant risk of being raped, and (3) women are not allowed to study medicine. How does she exist? She is a 21-century fantasy.

It's made even worse if you believe the Sarella/Alleras theory in the books (which I do) - that even a fucking Sand Snake, one of the absolute toughest women in all the Seven Kingdoms, has to pretend to be a boy to study at the Citadel. Yet here comes Talisa, cutting off a foot, administering drugs, etc. - this is major medical stuff, not just like Jeyne nursing Robb's fever in the book.

And then look at Brienne, who could also arguably be called a "tough grrl." She can kick ass with a sword, but, like Sarella, she dresses like a man to do it. Plus she is still constantly ridiculed, and even her swordfighting skills don't keep her from almost getting gang-raped. The only thing that saves her is her house name. But Talisa is from Volantis; she doesn't have a house name that means anything in Westeros.

So, seriously, someone please explain to me how she was able to study/practice medicine, and how she had not been raped 100 times by the time Robb met her.

[Joyful Union]

I'm just going to jump in here for a bit because this a huge peeve of mine with the show. Talisa's very existence makes her a "tough grrl." She is a foreign battlefield nurse somehow thriving in a world where (1) foreigners are generally disdained, (2) women traveling during wartime are at a huge, constant risk of being raped, and (3) women are not allowed to study medicine. How does she exist? She is a 21-century fantasy.

Don't the silent sisters practice medicine? I don't believe there is any law forbidding women to learn medicine, only to become Maesters (who do more than just heal) Also, even if Westeros had such a laws, why couldn't things be different in Volantis?

[Onna Lewyys]

Don't the silent sisters practice medicine? I don't believe there is any law forbidding women to learn medicine, only to become Maesters (who do more than just heal) Also, even if Westeros had such a laws, why couldn't things be different in Volantis?

As far as I remember it, the Silent Sisters are a religious order who only deal with the dead (e.g. stuffing them full of herbs and things to prevent decay, etc.). And they take vows, giving up their lives and voices. They're not sassy, independent women who are free to travel and marry kings. I suppose there could be some order of battlefield nurses that we don't know anything about, but have we seen any others besides Talisa?

And even if women are allowed to study medicine in Volantis, she's not in Volantis anymore.

[Daske]

I'm just going to jump in here for a bit because this a huge peeve of mine with the show. Talisa's very existence makes her a "tough grrl." She is a foreign battlefield nurse somehow thriving in a world where (1) foreigners are generally disdained, (2) women traveling during wartime are at a huge, constant risk of being raped, and (3) women are not allowed to study medicine. How does she exist? She is a 21-century fantasy.

It's made even worse if you believe the Sarella/Alleras theory in the books (which I do) - that even a fucking Sand Snake, one of the absolute toughest women in all the Seven Kingdoms, has to pretend to be a boy to study at the Citadel. Yet here comes Talisa, cutting off a foot, administering drugs, etc. - this is major medical stuff, not just like Jeyne nursing Robb's fever in the book.

...

So, seriously, someone please explain to me how she was able to study/practice medicine, and how she had not been raped 100 times by the time Robb met her.

Traditionally women have a role as healers as much if not more so than men. I don't think you need an actual doctorate to put it into practice during wartime in Westeros! It's not strange at all that a woman would have been able to gain knowledge about healing is it? Maybe passed down through the family? Maybe she learned it from other nurses.

You know that nurses have attended battlefields historically right? Mary Seacole and Florence Nightingale being prime example from the Crimean War - both worked overseas near battlefields and the latter trained many other women who worked under appalling conditions. And women didn't even have the vote in those days, and pretty sure couldn't attend university.

And you are also forgetting that right now doctors and nurses from many countries join the Red Cross/Crescent, Medicens Sanes Frontieres and so on. And many are women. And yes it is dangerous. Some do get killed, and doubtless raped. But regardless, they want to help stop the suffering in conflict areas despite these dangers and are out there doing it all the same.

Other thoughts - you would also hope that the soldiers under Robb would not want to kill a nurse who after all could save their lives. I would think healers and nurses would be held in high regard by soldiers. Plus it seems highly likely there would be some kind of taboo around hassling the Silent Sisters who we can assume would have agreed to look after her even if she isn't working for them directly.

It's all reasonably explained. Not even stretching things really.

[The Mountain That Posts]

What is stretching things is that she was completely unraped, and that of Robb's 30K or whatever host, he HAPPENED to stumble onto the one gorgeous, freethinking nurse. Yeah okayyyy.

The whole Talissa thing is one of the few things GRRM himsefl rants about. I believe his exact words were "there's probably two instances in all of history of a king running off and marrying a commoner."

[Joyful Union]

The whole Talissa thing is one of the few things GRRM himsefl rants about. I believe his exact words were "there's probably two instances in all of history of a king running off and marrying a commoner."

Ah, but this isn't an example of that. She is highborn, which Robb recognises and Talisa confirms.

[Khal-a-bunga]

What is stretching things is that she was completely unraped, and that of Robb's 30K or whatever host, he HAPPENED to stumble onto the one gorgeous, freethinking nurse. Yeah okayyyy.

The whole Talissa thing is one of the few things GRRM himsefl rants about. I believe his exact words were "there's probably two instances in all of history of a king running off and marrying a commoner."

Maybe she was "completely unraped" (...?), because Robb wouldn't allow his men to get away with that kind of shit. It's reasonable to expect, given the way Robb refused to torture and/or mistreat his prisoners, that that would be the case. Also important to keep in mind that she didn't travel to the battlefield alone. The cart with the medical supplies she was using was being led by some guy, though we never find out anything else about him (nor do we need to, if you ask me). And really, what indication are we given that the Northern army was so incredibly rape-happy, even in the books? Genuinely interested here, as I often see a variation of 'any women is at a huge, constant risk of being raped', but I can't recall anything from the text that would support this (to be clear, I'm talking specifically about Robb's forces) level of indecency towards women.

And Talisa wasn't, technically, a commoner. She was nobility in Volantis, so I don't see any reason why she wouldn't have been able to learn how to practice medicine before coming to Westeros. In fact, her entire impetus for wanting to practice medicine came about when she watched a slave save the life of her brother by administering some form of CPR, so... Yeah. Not to mention that Robb technically wasn't a King. His rebellion ultimately failed, as I'm sure you're aware.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Ah, but this isn't an example of that. She is highborn, which Robb recognises and Talisa confirms.

Being highborn doesn't mean anything, she is a nobody in Westeros.

Also, I don't know why there has to be an example of "rapehappy" men in Robb's army. We see plenty of that in other forces, it'd just be bad writing to overly show us douchebag soldiers in each specific army.

[Onna Lewyys]

You know that nurses have attended battlefields historically right?

And you are aware that this is a fictional universe with its own laws and customs, right? Did Martin ever mention battlefield nurses in the books? Has the show involved any besides Talisa? We've heard of women acting as bedside nurses, like when Robb suffered from fever in the book or when Jon had the pox in Catelyn's story in the show, but that does not require serious medical training the way that performing surgery does, which is what Talisa did when she amputated that guy's foot. And it doesn't matter what women are doing right now; this show doesn't take place right now. It takes place in a feudal, highly patriarchal society.

And regarding Robb not letting the northern men rape, let's not forget that Roose Bolton was one of his bannermen, a man famous for many horribly violent acts including raping and flaying. Oh, and the guys who tried to rape Brienne? They were his men. They were Stark men.

[Khal Porno]

What is stretching things is that she was completely unraped, and that of Robb's 30K or whatever host, he HAPPENED to stumble onto the one gorgeous, freethinking nurse. Yeah okayyyy.

The whole Talissa thing is one of the few things GRRM himsefl rants about. I believe his exact words were "there's probably two instances in all of history of a king running off and marrying a commoner."

Can you provide a link to his "ranting" about it? I've been looking for it online and can't find it. I'd be interested to read/hear what he actually said.

[PatrickStormborn]

And regarding Robb not letting the northern men rape, let's not forget that Roose Bolton was one of his bannermen, a man famous for many horribly violent acts including raping and flaying. Oh, and the guys who tried to rape Brienne? They were his men. They were Stark men.

Moreover, the men Brienne killed at the end of season two for raping and murdering three women were also Stark men.

[King Tommen]

Are the same stick up their asses posters still going over the boring ground about how Talisa wasn't raped? Does anyone really care about this BS besides the "it wasn't in the books so it's not realistic" crowd?

Let's move on and talk about something new shall we?

[PatrickStormborn]

Can you provide a link to his "ranting" about it? I've been looking for it online and can't find it. I'd be interested to read/hear what he actually said.

"And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know." [Source]

[Khal Porno]

"And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know." [Source]

That quote is from 2011 - I'm talking about Martin actually "ranting" about the Talisa thing.

EDIT: Not interested in arguing about Talisa for the millionth time.

[Khal-a-bunga]

And you are aware that this is a fictional universe with its own laws and customs, right? Did Martin ever mention battlefield nurses in the books? Has the show involved any besides Talisa? We've heard of women acting as bedside nurses, like when Robb suffered from fever in the book or when Jon had the pox in Catelyn's story in the show, but that does not require serious medical training the way that performing surgery does, which is what Talisa did when she amputated that guy's foot. And it doesn't matter what women are doing right now; this show doesn't take place right now. It takes place in a feudal, highly patriarchal society.

And regarding Robb not letting the northern men rape, let's not forget that Roose Bolton was one of his bannermen, a man famous for many horribly violent acts including raping and flaying. Oh, and the guys who tried to rape Brienne? They were his men. They were Stark men.

1. So is it a fictional universe with its own laws and customs, or is it a feudal, highly patriarchal society? I realize that the two aren't mutually exclusive, but I'm not sure what you were trying to imply by framing your comments with these two statements.

2. Amputation does not require "serious medical training". Any type of invasive surgery, sure, but an amputation could be performed by just about anyone. In some situations, people have been known to amputate their own limbs in order to survive.

3. Don't forget that Roose wanted to torture the prisoners Robb was holding for information, but Robb didn't allow it. Jaime didn't lose his hand until he was caught by Locke, who was not traveling with the main force of the Northern army. Given what we know about Robb, I don't see how you can argue that he would turn a blind eye to his men raping camp followers if he wouldn't even allow the prisoners that they kept to be mistreated.

Also, the entirety of the quote Patrick Stormborn posted above...

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

[Daske]

And you are aware that this is a fictional universe with its own laws and customs, right? Did Martin ever mention battlefield nurses in the books? Has the show involved any besides Talisa? We've heard of women acting as bedside nurses, like when Robb suffered from fever in the book or when Jon had the pox in Catelyn's story in the show, but that does not require serious medical training the way that performing surgery does, which is what Talisa did when she amputated that guy's foot.

So you have to be told of or to see other examples in that fictional universe for something to be plausible? You need two or more examples of everything on screen/book or you think it's totally impossible thing to happen even if there are parallels in our own history? Madness.

And even if it was shown to be an unusual situation, there's a huge amount of unlikley things, lucky escapes, coincidences and so on that happen in GoT and a lot of other fiction. Having a nurse on a battlefield is not one of them. The very place where you need a nurse the most for heavens's sake!

And it doesn't matter what women are doing right now; this show doesn't take place right now. It takes place in a feudal, highly patriarchal society.

I also pointed out two examples of historical war nurses who lived in far more patriarchal times (and there were many more who are not as famous).

The whole Talissa thing is one of the few things GRRM himsefl rants about. I believe his exact words were "there's probably two instances in all of history of a king running off and marrying a commoner."

There's no examples at all of historical dragon queens, but he included that.

[protar]

That quote is from 2011 - I'm talking about Martin actually "ranting" about the Talisa thing.

EDIT: Not interested in arguing about Talisa for the millionth time.

It's from 2011 yes. So what? Are you saying GRRM changed his mind in a year? And you really can't see the link here. That is simply one specific example of what might happen to the spunky peasant girl. Some lords would have her executed, others put in the stocks, some would just ignore her etc. etc. Bottom line is: Martin doesn't like the spunky peasant girl getting away with back talking the nobles.