[BOOK SPOILERS] TV Series Improvements on the Story?

[Mark Antony]

Yeah, Aiden Gillen was much better in "The Wire" than in GOT

Gods i was so happy when he was cast as LF, I thought he would be perfect based on his performance as Carcetti and honestly i thought he nailed it in Season 1. But idk i thought in Season 2 he was pretty bad, I enjoyed the "Chaos is a ladder" scene from S3 but that's pretty much all i can remember from him last season.

[Weeping Sore]

My favorite added scene is probably from season 1 when Robert and Cersei talk about their marriage. Brilliantly acted and well written.

:agree: Forgot about that one. One of the best scenes of S1.

[Miodrag]

This is kind of a contradiction. We have no idea why he wanted to become king in the book, we do in the show after the Renly Loras scene. Differences in character don't have much bearing on that. We have clear confirmation on the show as to why Renly decided to become King.

The prologue of "A Clash of Kings". Cressen thinks on all three Baratheon brothers. Renders them expertly. He renders Renly, too. Cressen gives us all the background of Stannis/Renly clash that is about to happen. Practically, all one needs to know about any of the Baratheons can be found in that prologue.

Also, Cat's pretty long negotiations with Renly could be of much help. They talk a lot. Renly says a lot. One can learn a lot.

[Weeping Sore]

The prologue of "A Clash of Kings". Cressen thinks on all three Baratheon brothers. Renders them expertly. He renders Renly, too. Cressen gives us all the background of Stannis/Renly clash that is about to happen. Practically, all one needs to know about any of the Baratheons can be found in that prologue.

Also, Cat's pretty long negotiations with Renly could be of much help. They talk a lot. Renly says a lot. One can learn a lot.

NotYourSir:

Anything that you woud admit was better on the show, no matter how small?

[Miodrag]

NotYourSir:

Anything that you woud admit was better on the show, no matter how small?

First, I'm not hard on admitting things if they make sense to me. On the contrary. Had I saw something as an improvement, the easiest thing in the world would be to admit it. There are no personal agendas for me in these discussions. Just what I like&respect, and what I don't.

Second, I rarely compare the two. Sometimes I do, but rarely. Numerous misgivings I have about the show usually deal only with inconsistency, bad writing, bad directing, bad acting, using cliches... but not with deviations from the books.

Third, in last post I only responded to "books don't flesh Renly enough" notion that often can be found in the section of forums devoted to the show, along with many other rather strange notions about "imperfections" of ASOIAF that were "corrected" in the show. Now, I'm not offended by it, nor by any claim about the books, no matter how false or ill-intended I find it (opposite to some show-lovers who seem to take critique of the show very personal). But I tend to challenge those notion whenever I can. There's nothing to blame readers for if they're forgetting parts of the books. Those are huge novels, with wast amounts of details of all kinds. I only like to remind of them, just as I enjoy when I'm reminded of something helpful I forgotten.

Fourth, of all the deviations and "added" scenes in the show, there isn't a single one that qualifies as an "improvement" of the source material in my eyes. With one possible exception: the ages of kids. Personally, I prefer the novels version, but I see nothing wrong with aging up as done in the show, and show-ages seem to make more sense for a lot of fans because it's closer to nowadays standards than to medieval ones that inspired books-ages.

And fifth, no, I don't think ASOIAF is without it's imperfections. Nothing ever is. But, there are very few of them, especially considering the quantity of the novels (around 5.000 pages so far). And, even with them, ASOIAF is a triumph of storytelling and literature. As a matter of fact, I like to compare ASOIAF not with the show, but with the books widely considered classics. This is definitely not a thread for that kind of talk, but in my evaluations (based on plots, characters, themes, complexity, ambition, and other elements usually analyzed in great novels) ASOIAF holds extremely well against giants I compare it with.

[Le Cygne]

Sam and Gilly. I liked their story in the books, but love it on the show. The two actors are so good together. I'm glad they have more scenes to come.

[Weeping Sore]

Fourth, of all the deviations and "added" scenes in the show, there isn't a single one that qualifies as an "improvement" of the source material in my eyes. With one possible exception: the ages of kids. Personally, I prefer the novels version, but I see nothing wrong with aging up as done in the show, and show-ages seem to make more sense for a lot of fans because it's closer to nowadays standards than to medieval ones that inspired books-ages.

Didn't say you were off-base with the defense of ACoK' s prologue w/r/to establishing Renly. I just honestly wanted to know if there was anything that the show had improved, as this thread supposes.

I think we're including changes that turn out to work better for the show. So- aging up, that's fair. Even while reading, I mentally aged up the characters to conform with my preconceptions about maturity.

Those who complain that AFfC/ADwD are are slow or sprawling are probably not comparing it to Robert Musil's Man Without Qualities (Nice Jaime/Cersei parallel there come to think of it) or Remembrance of Things Past.

But for the purposes of this thread, it could be any minor change. Personally, I think putting lines in another character's mouth has worked once or twice. The Hound's confession to Sansa of his childhood trauma seemed particularly out of character for him; having Littlefinger confide this secret to Sansa helped establish both his and the Hound's character simultaneously.

[Miodrag]

But for the purposes of this thread, it could be any minor change. Personally, I think putting lines in another character's mouth has worked once or twice. The Hound's confession to Sansa of his childhood trauma seemed particularly out of character for him; having Littlefinger confide this secret to Sansa helped establish both his and the Hound's character simultaneously.

I disagree with this on so many levels, especially with "out of character" bit. In fact, what happened in the show was so out of their books' characters: Petyr's and Sandor's both. It even diminishes Sansa, because she's supposed to be the only person in the world the story is told to, and by The Hound himself. It's one of those precious moments in Sansa/Sandor relation, that adds significant depth to both of them and to everything around them.

But, this isn't the thread for that discussion. I'm just going to assume you didn't see this footage of Rory McCann auditioning:

Maybe they had their reasons for giving these lines to Petyr, but I see none.

[Draco_Dracul]

I agree that The Hound should have kept his speech if only because he has so few lines in season one I originally thought The Hound and the King's Justice were two nicknames for the same character.

[Weeping Sore]

I disagree with this on so many levels, especially with "out of character" bit. In fact, what happened in the show was so out of their books' characters: Petyr's and Sandor's both. It even diminishes Sansa, because she's supposed to be the only person in the world the story is told to, and by The Hound himself. It's one of those precious moments in Sansa/Sandor relation, that adds significant depth to both of them and to everything around them.

But, this isn't the thread for that discussion. I'm just going to assume you didn't see this footage of Rory McCann auditioning:

Maybe they had their reasons for giving these lines to Petyr, but I see none.

The reason is- the Hound/Mountain story is exposition, which the reader/ audience needs to know to appreciate the conclusion of the Hand's Tourney. Having the Hound ejaculate the story prematurely all over Sansa (sorry, couldn't resist) is clumsy exposition. Having Littlefinger fill her in is somewhat less clumsy. (Also establishes LF as someone who knows secrets and as someone who is trying to impress Sansa for his own reasons).

It has nothing whatever to do with McCann's acting ability, which I would never disparage.

GRRM wrote a piece of clumsy exposition, and the show writer(s) improved it.

But really, you're perfectly entitled to find nothing on the show to be an improvement over the books, but then you should post only one comment on this thread, namely, "This thread has no reason for existence. You are all fools. FOOLS!"

[PatrickStormborn]

The reason is- the Hound/Mountain story is exposition, which the reader/ audience needs to know to appreciate the conclusion of the Hand's Tourney. Having the Hound ejaculate the story prematurely all over Sansa (sorry, couldn't resist) is clumsy exposition. Having Littlefinger fill her in is somewhat less clumsy. (Also establishes LF as someone who knows secrets and as someone who is trying to impress Sansa for his own reasons).

This is sooo far from the truth.

Littlefinger explaining the Hound's background is the very definition of "clumsy exposition", because it tells us nothing we don't already know about Sansa or Littlefinger and interrupts the pace of the story. In contrast, the conversation between the Hound and Sansa feels completely natural, reveals the Hound's background, but at the same time explores both him and Sansa. The very fact that he is telling this private and personal story to an 11 year old girl who he continuously mocks reveals a lot about him - far more than we can ever learn from Littlefinger. And similarly Sansa's response reveals a lot about her. Most importantly, it doesn't interrupt the pace of the story, so it cannot be called "clumsy".

The way I see it, you could take Littlefinger and Sansa's conversation about the Hound out from the episode, and the episode would flow more smoothly. But you couldn't take out the Hound and Sansa's conversation about his background because it's part of the natural flow of the chapter.

It has nothing whatever to do with McCann's acting ability, which I would never disparage.

GRRM wrote a piece of clumsy exposition, and the show writer(s) improved it.

If I recall correctly, the only reason they "improved" it was because of the weather.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Honestly, what SHOULD have happened, was Littlefinger should've told Sansa the story about the Mountain raping and murdering Elia Martell, and her children.

Would've given us that "shit, the mountain is evil" story that spot needed, it would've given us some background that we'll need for Oberyn Martell and it would also mean we could still have the Sandor/Sansa scene.

Just my opinion though.

[Weeping Sore]

This is sooo far from the truth.

Littlefinger explaining the Hound's background is the very definition of "clumsy exposition", because it tells us nothing we don't already know about Sansa or Littlefinger and interrupts the pace of the story. In contrast, the conversation between the Hound and Sansa feels completely natural, reveals the Hound's background, but at the same time explores both him and Sansa. The very fact that he is telling this private and personal story to an 11 year old girl who he continuously mocks reveals a lot about him - far more than we can ever learn from Littlefinger. And similarly Sansa's response reveals a lot about her. Most importantly, it doesn't interrupt the pace of the story, so it cannot be called "clumsy".

The way I see it, you could take Littlefinger and Sansa's conversation about the Hound out from the episode, and the episode would flow more smoothly. But you couldn't take out the Hound and Sansa's conversation about his background because it's part of the natural flow of the chapter.

If I recall correctly, the only reason they "improved" it was because of the weather.

The intimacy implied by the Hound's confession is premature and inconsistent with his character as a whole as established over the course of the series. Whether the change was intentional or a happy accident, it is still an improvement, IMNSHO.

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ Weeping Sore

Better to just let it go. You're talking to two posters who posit themselves as objective about the adaptation, and yet what they actually say shows that this couldn't be farther from the truth. Or, in other words, you're more likely to have a good discussion about the adaptation of the show with a brick wall.

[Le Cygne]

The intimacy implied by the Hound's confession is premature and inconsistent with his character as a whole as established over the course of the series. Whether the change was intentional or a happy accident, it is still an improvement, IMNSHO.

Well, that scene was close to the beginning of the series, so not much had been established at that point. He told her the story because he saw her going through the same thing with Jofrrey that he'd gone through with Gregor. This was a personal experience they shared, he was the person to tell her, and that was the time to tell her. That set up the rest of the story. And she's still remembering the things he told her. Littlefinger had nothing to do with any of that.

[go joff go]

I really like the way the show condenses characters and combines book ones for the purpose of the story. This is of course, out of necessity mainly so that the cast doesn't balloon up even larger than it is already but it actually in many ways helps the overall storytelling in doing so.

In the books, there are tons and tons of minor characters who drift in and out of the story with varying degrees of importance. I think because the series hasn't been written in full yet, many fans assume a lot of these minor characters have larger roles to play by the end of the things. And while I'm sure many of them will probably still appear again or at least be referenced, I have serious doubts about their importance and role to serve the overall story when it's all said and done.

And if a character isn't going to be that important, than there should always be the opportunity to consolidate their actions or role into another more well known character.

The show does this exceedingly well and characters such as Bronn, Osha, Gendry, Loras, Ygritte, Yoren, Shae etc are all richer and more developed as a result.

I think this is a great point. I read the Malazzaan series and was pretty dissapointed when at the end characters that I thought were going to be really important ended up having like one line in a 1000 page book. I sort of fear that outcome with ASOIF. The show, so far, does a good job of giving closure to arcs in part b/c there aren't as many, although there probably will be exception (Greatjon I'm l;ooking at you)..

[Theda Baratheon]

@ Weeping Sore

Better to just let it go. You're talking to two posters who posit themselves as objective about the adaptation, and yet what they actually say shows that this couldn't be farther from the truth. Or, in other words, you're more likely to have a good discussion about the adaptation of the show with a brick wall.

Now, now. Let's not be snarky here.

I agree with the two posters, Rory is a fantastic actor, and actually his reveal to Sansa would have flowed a lot better than Paedo Baelish sliding along beside her. The Hound's reveal is definitely not clumsy, whereas the latter, to an extent, definitely is.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Now, now. Let's not be snarky here.

I agree with the two posters, Rory is a fantastic actor, and actually his reveal to Sansa would have flowed a lot better than Paedo Baelish sliding along beside her. The Hound's reveal is definitely not clumsy, whereas the latter, to an extent, definitely is.

Genuinely not being snarky here, truth be told. Just trying to save the man some precious time.

Although, to an extent, I agree with them as well. I don't get why Littlefinger decided to tell her that story about the Clegane brothers in the show (can't remember if Sansa was staring at his facial scars or not, to be honest), but I also don't think he needs much of a reason to creep on Sansa. And, to my mind, establishing the relationship between Petyr & Sansa is infinitely more important than establishing the "relationship" between Sansa & The Hound (who aren't likely to meet again, in either the show or the books, if you ask me). I know that some people consider the latter some great romance, but... Eh', I never took that away from the whole scenario. The last thing I want to do is start any kind of discussion on 'SanSan', though, as those conversations always lead down some pretty creepy avenues.

[Weeping Sore]

Well, that scene was close to the beginning of the series, so not much had been established at that point. He told her the story because he saw her going through the same thing with Jofrrey that he'd gone through with Gregor. This was a personal experience they shared, he was the person to tell her, and that was the time to tell her. That set up the rest of the story. And she's still remembering the things he told her. Littlefinger had nothing to do with any of that.

I find Sandor/Sansa to be the most touching relationship in the series- he unable to escape his rage and malice, and she unable to escape her ironclad sense of conformity. Beautifully drawn. We needed to know about Sandor's past. But in hindsight, re-reading GoT, his confession is more intimate than their relationship warranted at that point in the narrative. It was exposition that shouldn't have come out of his mouth yet. Totally understandable when you've just started writing a character that has not yet totally revealed himself to you (by you, I mean GRRM).

[Weeping Sore]

@ Weeping Sore

Better to just let it go. You're talking to two posters who posit themselves as objective about the adaptation, and yet what they actually say shows that this couldn't be farther from the truth. Or, in other words, you're more likely to have a good discussion about the adaptation of the show with a brick wall.

Thanks, I'm starting to gather this.